1057 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

ZajoE38 wrote...

IT is full of holes, but fans ignore them, because in dream they can justify anything It was more than obvious that IT will be rejected, because those holes were many and too serious. Funny is that these fans doesn't even know how exactly indoctrination work. IT ending would be good, but it's in conflict with all 3 ME games. I just wonder how can be IT fans so blind. Confidence born of ignorance.

You were supposed to bring up evidence against I.T., not state your opinion. Please read the OP.

[ZajoE38]

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

[Hawk227]

M. Hanky wrote...

My biggest problem with IT:

The prothean VI says that you're not indoctrinated (or at least HEAVILY implies that you're not) and says that the Illusive man and Kai Leng are. It's really hard to convince me that the ending is Shepard fighting/being indoctrinated and has been being indoctrinated since ME1 when the Prothean VI, which seems to be able to tell the difference, says that Shepard isn't.

Shepards not indoctrinated yet. His resolve is deteriorating but he hasn't turned. Also, he only started getting indoctrinated in Arrival, not ME1.

Second biggest problem:

Bioware may have dropped the ball on the ending, but if they were really trying to say that everything on the Citadel was some kind of internal battle and choosing the destroy ending is Shepard winning the battle in his mind so he can really kill the reapers now, there's no way they'd be stupid/cruel enough to leave it there.

Are you sure, they gave us the ending we have. Plus we're getting DLC in summer, so maybe they won't.

Third biggest problem:

The poorly written/really wierd stuff after such as the Normandy crashing on some wierd planet and the guy with the kid would make no sense.

Stargazer never makes sense. The rest is shepard's (who doesn't realize its an hallucination) mind filling in what he expects/hopes will happen including his LI and squadmate surviving on a Reaper free garden planet.

This is actually the only thing that makes that scene make sense. If you brought your LI on the final run, that scene has both you squadmates-completely unharmed-get out of the normandy. Why didn't they go up the beam if they were fine!?

Modifié par Hawk227, 16 avril 2012 - 08:32 .

[M. Hanky]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

I'd like to know how. It's something that was established back in ME1. This is a HUGE hole in the idea of IT being anything more than fantasy.

And as far as the LI escaping on the Normandy and such... I just don't buy it being Shepard's mind filling with hope. Even you have to admit that you're stretching here, forcing the evidence to support your conclusion rather than having the evidence point to the true conclusion. Poorly written and glitchy seems to be a much more likely scenario.

Modifié par M. Hanky, 16 avril 2012 - 08:34 .

[balance5050]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

The V.I. is not full proof, it can most likely only detect reaper implants/tech. The VI states "There was a splinter group that thought they could "control" the reapers, they were later found to be indoctrinated." Sound familiar? Javik also tells you that every last one of his crew members became indoctrinated and he had to slit their throuts one by one.

The only indoctrination that shep would be going through would be psychological... subtle... barely noticable even to Shepard himself.

Modifié par balance5050, 16 avril 2012 - 08:37 .

[ZajoE38]

balance5050 wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

IT is full of holes, but fans ignore them, because in dream they can justify anything It was more than obvious that IT will be rejected, because those holes were many and too serious. Funny is that these fans doesn't even know how exactly indoctrination work. IT ending would be good, but it's in conflict with all 3 ME games. I just wonder how can be IT fans so blind. Confidence born of ignorance.

You were supposed to bring up evidence against I.T., not state your opinion. Please read the OP.

Ok. I don't have time for summarize every hole, it would be very long, but let's have a look on those oily shadows for example. They mean that Shepard is being indoctrinated. So whole ending is one big indoctrination... why don't we see that shadows and whipsers all the time during the ending? Expecially at the beginning and the end, when the brainwashing was strongest? Why you only see and hear effect of mind under control, just when TIM is trying to get control of you? He controlled the husk army and sent it against the Reapers. And now his science worker implanted him with Reaper tech, so he can harness it even deeper. How come he teleported into the Citadel, when we flew there? Yes TIM went to Citadel - that means he was there before shepard and anderson. As you wanted - less opinions and more facts 

[M. Hanky]

balance5050 wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

The V.I. is not full proof, it can most likely only detect reaper implants/tech. The VI states "There was a splinter group that thought they could "control" the reapers, they were later found to be indoctrinated." Sound familiar? Javik also tells you that every last one of his crew members became indoctrinated and he had to slit their throuts one by one.

The only indoctrination that shep would be going through would be psychological... subtle... barely noticable even to Shepard himself.

Simply saying that the VI isn't fool-proof isn't a valid form of evidence for IT, or a truly effective arguement against this particular hole. you're just stretching the evidence to fit your conclusion. you need some evidence to suggest that the VI is incapable of distinguishing between someone who is indoctrinated and someone who is not. And as far as the group of indoctrinated protheans, they weren't the ones who were working on the Crucible in their time, which are the protheans who created that particular VI.

[balance5050]

ZajoE38 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

IT is full of holes, but fans ignore them, because in dream they can justify anything It was more than obvious that IT will be rejected, because those holes were many and too serious. Funny is that these fans doesn't even know how exactly indoctrination work. IT ending would be good, but it's in conflict with all 3 ME games. I just wonder how can be IT fans so blind. Confidence born of ignorance.

You were supposed to bring up evidence against I.T., not state your opinion. Please read the OP.

Ok. I don't have time for summarize every hole, it would be very long, but let's have a look on those oily shadows for example. They mean that Shepard is being indoctrinated. So whole ending is one big indoctrination... why don't we see that shadows and whipsers all the time during the ending? Expecially at the beginning and the end, when the brainwashing was strongest? Why you only see and hear effect of mind under control, just when TIM is trying to get control of you? He controlled the husk army and sent it against the Reapers. And now his science worker implanted him with Reaper tech, so he can harness it even deeper. How come he teleported into the Citadel, when we flew there? Yes TIM went to Citadel - that means he was there before shepard and anderson. As you wanted - less opinions and more facts 

Who says they have to be their ALL the time, they are there when you unwillingly pull the trigger on Anderson and that's all I'll say about that.

Again, the reapers were already controlling TIM, so they were controlling Shepard THROUGH TIM. And we never see any other time in the series that someone is physically manipulated like that, Indoctrination is of the mind.

"How come he teleported into the Citadel, when we flew there? Yes TIM went to Citadel - that means he was there before shepard and anderson. As you wanted - less opinions and more facts"

You did, see all the dead bodies right? TIM went to the Citadel to warn the reapers... WARN THE REAPERS! If he wasn't indoc before he most certainly is when Shep sees him. TIM is nothing but a pawn at that point.

[Hawk227]

M. Hanky wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

The V.I. is not full proof, it can most likely only detect reaper implants/tech. The VI states "There was a splinter group that thought they could "control" the reapers, they were later found to be indoctrinated." Sound familiar? Javik also tells you that every last one of his crew members became indoctrinated and he had to slit their throuts one by one.

The only indoctrination that shep would be going through would be psychological... subtle... barely noticable even to Shepard himself.

Simply saying that the VI isn't fool-proof isn't a valid form of evidence for IT, or a truly effective arguement against this particular hole. you're just stretching the evidence to fit your conclusion. you need some evidence to suggest that the VI is incapable of distinguishing between someone who is indoctrinated and someone who is not. And as far as the group of indoctrinated protheans, they weren't the ones who were working on the Crucible in their time, which are the protheans who created that particular VI.

He's not really indoctrinated yet. He's only indoctrinated if you pick Control or Synthesis at the end.

[balance5050]

M. Hanky wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

The V.I. is not full proof, it can most likely only detect reaper implants/tech. The VI states "There was a splinter group that thought they could "control" the reapers, they were later found to be indoctrinated." Sound familiar? Javik also tells you that every last one of his crew members became indoctrinated and he had to slit their throuts one by one.

The only indoctrination that shep would be going through would be psychological... subtle... barely noticable even to Shepard himself.

Simply saying that the VI isn't fool-proof isn't a valid form of evidence for IT, or a truly effective arguement against this particular hole. you're just stretching the evidence to fit your conclusion. you need some evidence to suggest that the VI is incapable of distinguishing between someone who is indoctrinated and someone who is not. And as far as the group of indoctrinated protheans, they weren't the ones who were working on the Crucible in their time, which are the protheans who created that particular VI.

No they were, they were actually able to sabotage the plan once it was in place. There is a reason they tell you that that there were sleeper agents, much like Rana Thanoptis, the seed of idoctrination can lie dormant. So it only makes sense that the indoc would set in during the crucial final moments.

[Hawk227]

balance5050 wrote...

M. Hanky wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

The V.I. is not full proof, it can most likely only detect reaper implants/tech. The VI states "There was a splinter group that thought they could "control" the reapers, they were later found to be indoctrinated." Sound familiar? Javik also tells you that every last one of his crew members became indoctrinated and he had to slit their throuts one by one.

The only indoctrination that shep would be going through would be psychological... subtle... barely noticable even to Shepard himself.

Simply saying that the VI isn't fool-proof isn't a valid form of evidence for IT, or a truly effective arguement against this particular hole. you're just stretching the evidence to fit your conclusion. you need some evidence to suggest that the VI is incapable of distinguishing between someone who is indoctrinated and someone who is not. And as far as the group of indoctrinated protheans, they weren't the ones who were working on the Crucible in their time, which are the protheans who created that particular VI.

No they were, they were actually able to sabotage the plan once it was in place. There is a reason they tell you that that there were sleeper agents, much like Rana Thanoptis, the seed of idoctrination can lie dormant. So it only makes sense that the indoc would set in during the crucial final moments.

You're commitment to rebutting the same lame arguments over and over made me think of this. Keep up the good work, I don't have the patience.

[balance5050]

Hawk227 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

M. Hanky wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

The V.I. is not full proof, it can most likely only detect reaper implants/tech. The VI states "There was a splinter group that thought they could "control" the reapers, they were later found to be indoctrinated." Sound familiar? Javik also tells you that every last one of his crew members became indoctrinated and he had to slit their throuts one by one.

The only indoctrination that shep would be going through would be psychological... subtle... barely noticable even to Shepard himself.

Simply saying that the VI isn't fool-proof isn't a valid form of evidence for IT, or a truly effective arguement against this particular hole. you're just stretching the evidence to fit your conclusion. you need some evidence to suggest that the VI is incapable of distinguishing between someone who is indoctrinated and someone who is not. And as far as the group of indoctrinated protheans, they weren't the ones who were working on the Crucible in their time, which are the protheans who created that particular VI.

No they were, they were actually able to sabotage the plan once it was in place. There is a reason they tell you that that there were sleeper agents, much like Rana Thanoptis, the seed of idoctrination can lie dormant. So it only makes sense that the indoc would set in during the crucial final moments.

You're commitment to rebutting the same lame arguments over and over made me think of this. Keep up the good work, I don't have the patience.

HAHA! That's exactly my situation right now! Thanks for that.

[M. Hanky]

balance5050 wrote...

M. Hanky wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

The V.I. is not full proof, it can most likely only detect reaper implants/tech. The VI states "There was a splinter group that thought they could "control" the reapers, they were later found to be indoctrinated." Sound familiar? Javik also tells you that every last one of his crew members became indoctrinated and he had to slit their throuts one by one.

The only indoctrination that shep would be going through would be psychological... subtle... barely noticable even to Shepard himself.

Simply saying that the VI isn't fool-proof isn't a valid form of evidence for IT, or a truly effective arguement against this particular hole. you're just stretching the evidence to fit your conclusion. you need some evidence to suggest that the VI is incapable of distinguishing between someone who is indoctrinated and someone who is not. And as far as the group of indoctrinated protheans, they weren't the ones who were working on the Crucible in their time, which are the protheans who created that particular VI.

No they were, they were actually able to sabotage the plan once it was in place. There is a reason they tell you that that there were sleeper agents, much like Rana Thanoptis, the seed of idoctrination can lie dormant. So it only makes sense that the indoc would set in during the crucial final moments.

And while I'll give you that sabotaging the VI's ability to distinguish between indoctrinated and not indoctrinated would be highly effective, I'm sure they'd be much more effect sabotaging a couple of other things. First: erasing knowledge that the Catalyst is the Citadel. If the Reapers don't want to be defeated in the next cycle, this would be number 1. For that matter, the Illusive Man wouldn't have needed to warn the Reapers of this if the Crucible project under the Protheans had been infiltrated, because they would have already known. Second: don't you think that destroying/corrupting the plans for the Crucible would have been better? If sleeper Reaper agents were going to sabotage the VI's ability to tell that they were indoctrinated in the first place (which would be hard if the VI can tell. Probably why they programed it with that ability in the first place) then why not go all the way and destroy the plans for the Crucible in the first place? again, you're stretching the evidence to support your conclusion.

[ZajoE38]

If victim is indoctrinated, it doesn't meant that it's under "direct control", or did have TIM yellow glowing eyes?. Indoctrinated victim behaves normally. It has it's own emotions, own hobbies, interests.. everything. Just it's motivations/priorities are shifted. TIM was obsessed with power no matter the indoctrination. And Shepard is not indoctrinated in any of the ending. Those eyes? Don't be ridiculous. Matriarch Benezia, Rana Thanoptis, Amanda Kenson, they were all fully indoctrinated, yet they had normal eyes. You will catch anything you can to proove your theory.. but problem is that everything you catch has a hole. Those spooky eyes are medical implants. As Shepard was burning, disintegrating they got exposed.

EDIT - and victim can not beat the indoctrination! Once indoctrinated - it is irreversible. So there is nothing like Shepard won against indoctrination. It can not happed. It's against very basis of indoctrination.

Modifié par ZajoE38, 16 avril 2012 - 09:01 .

[balance5050]

M. Hanky wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

M. Hanky wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

The V.I. is not full proof, it can most likely only detect reaper implants/tech. The VI states "There was a splinter group that thought they could "control" the reapers, they were later found to be indoctrinated." Sound familiar? Javik also tells you that every last one of his crew members became indoctrinated and he had to slit their throuts one by one.

The only indoctrination that shep would be going through would be psychological... subtle... barely noticable even to Shepard himself.

Simply saying that the VI isn't fool-proof isn't a valid form of evidence for IT, or a truly effective arguement against this particular hole. you're just stretching the evidence to fit your conclusion. you need some evidence to suggest that the VI is incapable of distinguishing between someone who is indoctrinated and someone who is not. And as far as the group of indoctrinated protheans, they weren't the ones who were working on the Crucible in their time, which are the protheans who created that particular VI.

No they were, they were actually able to sabotage the plan once it was in place. There is a reason they tell you that that there were sleeper agents, much like Rana Thanoptis, the seed of idoctrination can lie dormant. So it only makes sense that the indoc would set in during the crucial final moments.

And while I'll give you that sabotaging the VI's ability to distinguish between indoctrinated and not indoctrinated would be highly effective, I'm sure they'd be much more effect sabotaging a couple of other things. First: erasing knowledge that the Catalyst is the Citadel. If the Reapers don't want to be defeated in the next cycle, this would be number 1. For that matter, the Illusive Man wouldn't have needed to warn the Reapers of this if the Crucible project under the Protheans had been infiltrated, because they would have already known. Second: don't you think that destroying/corrupting the plans for the Crucible would have been better? If sleeper Reaper agents were going to sabotage the VI's ability to tell that they were indoctrinated in the first place (which would be hard if the VI can tell. Probably why they programed it with that ability in the first place) then why not go all the way and destroy the plans for the Crucible in the first place? again, you're stretching the evidence to support your conclusion.

They sabotaged it by thinking they could use it to control the reapers... Like TIM, So they probably warned the reapers,it's just another form of control, the VI even says that the cycle always plays out in the same manner, Cerberus is just another splinter group like in the previous cycles.

The Protheans hid the plans and tried to give the next cycle a chance, don't forget that in Javics time they had the citadel captured for over 100 years.

[Erethrian]

M. Hanky wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

I'd like to know how. It's something that was established back in ME1. This is a HUGE hole in the idea of IT being anything more than fantasy.

And as far as the LI escaping on the Normandy and such... I just don't buy it being Shepard's mind filling with hope. Even you have to admit that you're stretching here, forcing the evidence to support your conclusion rather than having the evidence point to the true conclusion. Poorly written and glitchy seems to be a much more likely scenario.

It's quite simple to me. Being IT or not, the prothean VI says it can detect indoctrinated individuals, but it doesn't say how. My opinion is those VIs can only detect indoctrinated individuals with reaper tech in them (Kai Leng is an example). Clearly, Shepard's not invulnerable against indoctrination, because no human is. But the indoctrination process is slow and Shepard doesn't have reaper tech (or we ignore if he does) implanted. The thing is, there's a moment when the VI says "security protocols overriden", a lot of people think this is due the crucible is already completed, but I think it's because of EDI, a body made with reaper tech. In fact, when the VI says those exact words, the scene shows the prothean VI talking to us, and EDI in the background.

Also, as a lot of people said, indoctrination is a slow process that may require a lot of months or years to be completed. If what I think is not true, then maybe the VI only detects high amount or complete indoctrination, so the indoctrinated agent is doing reaper's will (even if s/he doesn't know that) and is already "fully" controlled by them.

[balance5050]

ZajoE38 wrote...

If victim is indoctrinated, it doesn't meant that it's under "direct control", or did have TIM yellow glowing eyes?. Indoctrinated victim behaves normally. It has it's own emotions, own hobbies, interests.. everything. Just it's motivations/priorities are shifted. TIM was obsessed with power no matter the indoctrination. And Shepard is not indoctrinated in any of the ending. Those eyes? Don't be ridiculous. Matriarch Benezia, Rana Thanoptis, Amanda Kenson, they were all fully indoctrinated, yet they had normal eyes. You will catch anything you can to proove your theory.. but problem is that everything you catch has a hole. Those spooky eyes are medical implants. As Shepard was burning, disintegrating they got exposed.

But Saren did, all the eyes signify is contact with reaper tech.

[M. Hanky]

once again, stop forcing the evidence to conform to your conclusion. you have yet to offer anything but conjecture. The VI MIGHT be wrong because indoctrinated sleeper agents MIGHT have sabotaged it even though there's NOTHING that suggests this in the game. If this idea had any basis, SOMETHING more than "something like cerberus happened 50,000 years ago" would have alluded to it.

[liggy002]

Remember the very beginning of the game when we see the close up of the model spaceship and it appears as if it's a real spaceship (sort of)?   Then, the camera pans out and we just see that it is a kid flying the spaceship. This could be symbolic of Bioware messing with our heads. It could also mean that the kid is the master manipulator of a reality we are unaware of. Of course, this is all just conjecture but it makes sense when injected with the IT.

Modifié par liggy002, 16 avril 2012 - 09:07 .

[Hawk227]

Am I invisible? He's not indoctrinated yet! Until he/you adopts the reaper worldview (control/synthesis) he's not indoctrinated.

[balance5050]

M. Hanky wrote...

once again, stop forcing the evidence to conform to your conclusion. you have yet to offer anything but conjecture. The VI MIGHT be wrong because indoctrinated sleeper agents MIGHT have sabotaged it even though there's NOTHING that suggests this in the game. If this idea had any basis, SOMETHING more than "something like cerberus happened 50,000 years ago" would have alluded to it.

Actually the VI and Javik gives that information, also, Shepard wasn't indoctrinated yet, The end is the indoctrination ATTEMPT. So he wasnt even indoctrinated then.

[M. Hanky]

Hawk227 wrote...

Am I invisible? He's not indoctrinated yet! Until he/you adopts the reaper worldview (control/synthesis) he's not indoctrinated.

and this would be the only sound arguement made against this particular hole with IT overall, but it doesn't address the many other issues with IT.

[rachellouise]

so who 'built' the dreams, the reapers or shepard?

[balance5050]

K, bed time. I'LL BE BACK.

[M. Hanky]

balance5050 wrote...



Actually the VI and Javik gives that information, also, Shepard wasn't indoctrinated yet, The end is the indoctrination ATTEMPT. So he wasnt even indoctrinated then.

what information did Javik or the VI give other than there were indoctrinated agents back then? Duh, everyone already knew that! you need more.