1057 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

Master Che wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Master Che wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

You mean prove a negative? Umm if somebody sees the face of Jesus in their mash potatoes does that mean there's a god? How could I prove there isn't?

That's IT theory. It's people seeing what they want to see. Every hole in the theory is easily glossed over by people saying it's "indoctrination"...it's like a dream. It doesn't have to make total sense.

Basically IT theory makes a basic assumption...Shepard is being indoctrinated...which cannot be proven.

IT theory does not involve Jesus or mashed potatoes. 

Please select a key element of the theory.

I repeat...in simpler terms...

IT theory assumes Shepard is being indoctrinated...which can neither be proven nor disproven with the information given us in the ending. It is neither confirmed nor denied ingame. So you go ahead and see what you want to see. 

Regardless it's still a crappy ending.

Finally Bioware all but admitted at PAX that the IT theory wasn't the ending they intended but simply the invention of clever fans. They weren't willing to dismiss it though because...well it makes them look smarter than they were.

That's the thing with theories: By definition, you cannot prove them to be true.  You can only prove them to be false.  That's a reality.  That's science.  I promise.  Once you prove them, they are fact. 

I wasn't at PAX.  Do you have a quote from an article or vid to share?

Don't worry, they never said such a thing. When people asked about I.T. at the panel there was a huge cheer, they said "we will not confirm or deny IT" because they don't want to be "prescriptive" of the content. They want the content to "speak for itself".

[KevShep]

Bill Casey wrote...

KevShep wrote...

No its not, BioWare has said that there will be an Eiplogue (final chapter) after the cut scenes explaining what the current ending was about.

Yeah... And?
Shepard is already dead in most of the endings...

Then if you picked wrong then your shepard dies thats why the game starts you back before you take the cerberus base.

[Bill Casey]

The biggest proof is Shepard shooting Anderson against his will...

[NM_Che56]

I think we need to be careful in asserting Shepard's dead. We don't see a corpse. We don't see a casket and a funeral or a headstone that says "Shepard".

When it comes down to it, we really don't KNOW what happened to Shepard.

So to say he died is...wait for it...pause for dramatic effect...SPECULATION! LOL

[Galifreya]

eddieoctane wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Main issue with IT...you have less choice than the crappy ending that Bioware actually wrote.

Lets break down the ending choices.

With "control" or "synthesis" you are indoctrinated. You dont wake up. Reapers win. Everyone dies. Everything you did up till that point was completely meaningless. Game over.

You pick "destroy" and you escape indoctrination but you die (because of low war assets). Nothing is resolved. Reapers win. Everyone dies. Everything you did up till that point was completely meaningless. Game over.

You pick destroy and escape being indoctrinated and wake up (because you have enough war assets). But that means you didn't actually witness the end of the game...you still have to defeat the Reapers. So this would also mean they gave us a totally unfinished game. This is beyond lame.

So basically the only way to win and the only choices that mattered were the few that gave you the "perfect" destroy ending. Having only one choice basically means you have no choice.

Many, many people (myself included) feel like our choices did not matter to begin with. The resurection fo the Rachni queen, everything being reduced to EMS score, large increase in auto-dialog. We already feel like there is little/no choice, making the ending meaningless as well fits the established pattern.

And ever hear of Aura's Wrath? People thought the ending was written for a sequel, but Capcom is simply going to release an ending DLC at a later date. Incomplete games are officially a thing. There is now a precedent to assume that ME3 was intentionally released unfinished.

People always seem to forget that the ending was leaked MONTHS ago. Which BioWare probably predicted, since they've had trouble with leaks in the past.

For safety reasons, SPOILERS AHEAD for The 6th Sense, KOTOR, and The Empire Strikes Back. Just in case. ^_~

Now think about this..... How awful would it have been if before KOTOR came out, it was leaked all over the internet that YOU ARE REVAN. Or if before the 6th Sense came out, the internet spoiled the fact that OMG, BRUCE WILLIS IS A GHOST THE WHOLE TIME. Or if when The Empire Strikes Back came out, somehow newspapers discovered that VADER IS LUKE'S FATHER, and decided to tell everyone.

That would have sucked. Utterly. And you could say, "Well, just stay away from the those places on the internet then. Problem solved." But I tried to do this myself, and someone, somewhere, ended up spoiling the ending for me for ME3. Not my fault. Just some inconsiderate jerk posting things they shouldn't have in a place I wasn't expecting them to.

For BioWare to not include the entire ending of the game IN the game seems completely acceptable to me, IF they don't make you pay extra. Which, as of right now, it appears they are not. Point in fact, to date we've already recieved one free DLC that had nothing to do with the ending. So why wouldn't the "real" ending not be downloadable and free as well? Other games have done this. BIOWARE has done this in the past (Neverwinter Nights).

It just strikes me as oddly stubborn that people DON'T want this to be the case, and feel that it's completely infeasible. What is the problem so long as it's free? I would LOVE IT if a game company did that. It keeps people spoiler free, even if they don't want to be spoiler free. Which is how it should be. But with the internet.... It's hard to keep a secret like that now days.

Do people not realize this is what would have happened if BioWare HAD included the Indoctrination ending right from the get go? We all would have been spoiled to the surprise months ago.

Modifié par Gallifreya, 13 avril 2012 - 05:33 .

[Bill Casey]

KevShep wrote...

Then if you picked wrong then your shepard dies thats why the game starts you back before you take the cerberus base.

"Picked wrong" is the wrong way of looking at it...

[NM_Che56]

Bill Casey wrote...

The biggest proof is Shepard shooting Anderson against his will...

She that is what got me.  It's apparent to me that Shepard does not want to shoot Anderson.  If you believe IT or if you take what you saw at face value, it's hard to believe that Shepard was in control of his body when he fired his gun.

[KevShep]

Bill Casey wrote...

The biggest proof is Shepard shooting Anderson against his will...

That was just a dream to get shepard to battle himself.

[balance5050]

Master Che wrote...

I think we need to be careful in asserting Shepard's dead. We don't see a corpse. We don't see a casket and a funeral or a headstone that says "Shepard".

When it comes down to it, we really don't KNOW what happened to Shepard.

So to say he died is...wait for it...pause for dramatic effect...SPECULATION! LOL

The last time we see him in both control and synthesis, he looks like this:

[NM_Che56]

Gallifreya,


HMMmmmmmmm...

[KevShep]

Bill Casey wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Then if you picked wrong then your shepard dies thats why the game starts you back before you take the cerberus base.

"Picked wrong" is the wrong way of looking at it...

 remember that Its not the end. 

If shepards being indoctrinated then doesnt it make sense to also make the player think they are not getting indoctrinated as well? 

[NM_Che56]

tetsutsuru wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Main issue with IT...you have less choice than the crappy ending that Bioware actually wrote.

Lets break down the ending choices.

With "control" or "synthesis" you are indoctrinated. You dont wake up. Reapers win. Everyone dies. Everything you did up till that point was completely meaningless. Game over.

You pick "destroy" and you escape indoctrination but you die (because of low war assets). Nothing is resolved. Reapers win. Everyone dies. Everything you did up till that point was completely meaningless. Game over.

You pick destroy and escape being indoctrinated and wake up (because you have enough war assets). But that means you didn't actually witness the end of the game...you still have to defeat the Reapers. So this would also mean they gave us a totally unfinished game. This is beyond lame.

So basically the only way to win and the only choices that mattered were the few that gave you the "perfect" destroy ending. Having only one choice basically means you have no choice.

"Shepard dying or being indoctrinated means the Reapers automatically win" is a fallacy...

Who cares. You lost. You're dead. You can't affect the end any more. 

Exactly.  This is akin to having Morinth as your Romantic Interest in ME2.  It results in a Critical Mission Failure.  Control and Synthesis choices are essentially Critical Mission Failures.  But instead of a CMF screen and Saren's Theme playing in the background, CGI or even slides showing the Reapers' victory would be nice.  Kind of like endings in Fallout reveal the fates of people and places based on your actions and decisions.

Where is the proof that he is dead...?

[Galifreya]

Master Che wrote...

Gallifreya,


HMMmmmmmmm...

Thank you! XD

[Bill Casey]

balance5050 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

I
think we need to be careful in asserting Shepard's dead. We don't see a
corpse. We don't see a casket and a funeral or a headstone that says
"Shepard".

When it comes down to it, we really don't KNOW what happened to Shepard.

So to say he died is...wait for it...pause for dramatic effect...SPECULATION! LOL

The last time we see him in both control and synthesis, he looks like this:

His eyes are identical in design to the Illusive Man's, who got those eyes from touching a Reaper artifact...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 13 avril 2012 - 05:39 .

[Lyrebon]

*throws hard potato into the room*

[rachellouise]

Shepard says something along the lines of "controlling me is different to controlling a reaper", so it sounds like it is TIM  making use of his implants/research from sanctuary. It could be Shepard fighting indoctrination, but he seems to have no problems once TIM is not there. Apart from all the wounds and stuff, I mean.

Modifié par rachellouise, 13 avril 2012 - 05:50 .

[tetsutsuru]

Master Che wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Main issue with IT...you have less choice than the crappy ending that Bioware actually wrote.

Lets break down the ending choices.

With "control" or "synthesis" you are indoctrinated. You dont wake up. Reapers win. Everyone dies. Everything you did up till that point was completely meaningless. Game over.

You pick "destroy" and you escape indoctrination but you die (because of low war assets). Nothing is resolved. Reapers win. Everyone dies. Everything you did up till that point was completely meaningless. Game over.

You pick destroy and escape being indoctrinated and wake up (because you have enough war assets). But that means you didn't actually witness the end of the game...you still have to defeat the Reapers. So this would also mean they gave us a totally unfinished game. This is beyond lame.

So basically the only way to win and the only choices that mattered were the few that gave you the "perfect" destroy ending. Having only one choice basically means you have no choice.

"Shepard dying or being indoctrinated means the Reapers automatically win" is a fallacy...

Who cares. You lost. You're dead. You can't affect the end any more. 

Exactly.  This is akin to having Morinth as your Romantic Interest in ME2.  It results in a Critical Mission Failure.  Control and Synthesis choices are essentially Critical Mission Failures.  But instead of a CMF screen and Saren's Theme playing in the background, CGI or even slides showing the Reapers' victory would be nice.  Kind of like endings in Fallout reveal the fates of people and places based on your actions and decisions.

Where is the proof that he is dead...?

*facepalm*

What part of the word, "THEORY", do you not understand?

We DO NOT have proof of a lot of things.  THAT is the problem.  Only BioWare has all the answers.

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 13 avril 2012 - 05:44 .

[NM_Che56]

Lyrebon wrote...

*throws hard potato into the room*

YOU'RE OUT OF ORDER!

*mashes potato*

[Galifreya]

KevShep wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Then if you picked wrong then your shepard dies thats why the game starts you back before you take the cerberus base.

"Picked wrong" is the wrong way of looking at it...

 remember that Its not the end. 

If shepards being indoctrinated then doesnt it make sense to also make the player think they are not getting indoctrinated as well? 

YES IT DOES. Perfect sense. Why on Earth would BioWare want to alienate you from your Shepard? This is the MOST BioWare has EVER connected the player to -their specific Shepard-. It LITERALLY puts you into Shepard's shoes of having to go through the frustration and indignancy that goes along with being indoctrinated. It is a competely incredible accomplishment, even if it was by accident on BioWare's part.

I was never so upset for any fictional character IN MY LIFE. I just kept shouting at her, "JUST TELL HIM NO! JUST SAY NO! NOOOOOO!!!" Kicking and screaming. It was like a nightmare I wanted to wake up from.

But she wouldn't. Just like you can't run as fast as you'd like to in a dream. Just like you can't speak sometimes as you'd like to when in a dream. You lose control.

[TheTrueObelus]

Master Che wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Master Che wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

You mean prove a negative? Umm if somebody sees the face of Jesus in their mash potatoes does that mean there's a god? How could I prove there isn't?

That's IT theory. It's people seeing what they want to see. Every hole in the theory is easily glossed over by people saying it's "indoctrination"...it's like a dream. It doesn't have to make total sense.

Basically IT theory makes a basic assumption...Shepard is being indoctrinated...which cannot be proven.

IT theory does not involve Jesus or mashed potatoes. 

Please select a key element of the theory.

I repeat...in simpler terms...

IT theory assumes Shepard is being indoctrinated...which can neither be proven nor disproven with the information given us in the ending. It is neither confirmed nor denied ingame. So you go ahead and see what you want to see. 

Regardless it's still a crappy ending.

Finally Bioware all but admitted at PAX that the IT theory wasn't the ending they intended but simply the invention of clever fans. They weren't willing to dismiss it though because...well it makes them look smarter than they were.

That's the thing with theories: By definition, you cannot prove them to be true.  You can only prove them to be false.  That's a reality.  That's science.  I promise.  Once you prove them, they are fact. 

I wasn't at PAX.  Do you have a quote from an article or vid to share?

Ummm no....a theory by definition cannot be proven true and remain a theory. A theory can be proven true. It simply ceases to be a theory once that happens. And theories often contain millions of facts that can be proven. Gravity is a still a theory because it's not completely understood...not because it's not a fact. Evolution is a theory containing millions of facts that have been repeatedly tested...those facts being roughly the whole field of biology and a number of other scientific disciplines.

IT is not science because it cannot be tested. It can only be confirmed or denied by the game designers.

Bioware rep quote follows:

Mike Gamble: The Indoctrination Theory illustrates again how committed the fanbase is. (Laughter from Audience). We don't want to comment either way on it, here is why. We don't want to be prescriptive on how people interpret the ending, especially with the Extended Cut, DLC coming out, we don't want to be prescriptive with how people think things ended, we want the content to speak for itself. And we'll let it do so.

Much like the ending itself he tries to be noncommittal. Their plan wasn't IT theory. Their plan was to add ambiguity to the ending of the game to spawn discussion. Basically they wanted to give us another annoying Battlestar Galactica ending. Is Starbuck and angel or isnt she? Seriously who the f*** cares. They jumped the shark.

[OdanUrr]

Gallifreya wrote...

It is a competely incredible accomplishment, even if it was by accident on BioWare's part.

Oh, now we're saying it was an accident...

[Dead_Meat357]

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Master Che wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Master Che wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

You mean prove a negative? Umm if somebody sees the face of Jesus in their mash potatoes does that mean there's a god? How could I prove there isn't?

That's IT theory. It's people seeing what they want to see. Every hole in the theory is easily glossed over by people saying it's "indoctrination"...it's like a dream. It doesn't have to make total sense.

Basically IT theory makes a basic assumption...Shepard is being indoctrinated...which cannot be proven.

IT theory does not involve Jesus or mashed potatoes. 

Please select a key element of the theory.

I repeat...in simpler terms...

IT theory assumes Shepard is being indoctrinated...which can neither be proven nor disproven with the information given us in the ending. It is neither confirmed nor denied ingame. So you go ahead and see what you want to see. 

Regardless it's still a crappy ending.

Finally Bioware all but admitted at PAX that the IT theory wasn't the ending they intended but simply the invention of clever fans. They weren't willing to dismiss it though because...well it makes them look smarter than they were.

That's the thing with theories: By definition, you cannot prove them to be true.  You can only prove them to be false.  That's a reality.  That's science.  I promise.  Once you prove them, they are fact. 

I wasn't at PAX.  Do you have a quote from an article or vid to share?

Ummm no....a theory by definition cannot be proven true and remain a theory. A theory can be proven true. It simply ceases to be a theory once that happens. And theories often contain millions of facts that can be proven. Gravity is a still a theory because it's not completely understood...not because it's not a fact. Evolution is a theory containing millions of facts that have been repeatedly tested...those facts being roughly the whole field of biology and a number of other scientific disciplines.

IT is not science because it cannot be tested. It can only be confirmed or denied by the game designers.

Bioware rep quote follows:

Mike Gamble: The Indoctrination Theory illustrates again how committed the fanbase is. (Laughter from Audience). We don't want to comment either way on it, here is why. We don't want to be prescriptive on how people interpret the ending, especially with the Extended Cut, DLC coming out, we don't want to be prescriptive with how people think things ended, we want the content to speak for itself. And we'll let it do so.

Much like the ending itself he tries to be noncommittal. Their plan wasn't IT theory. Their plan was to add ambiguity to the ending of the game to spawn discussion. Basically they wanted to give us another annoying Battlestar Galactica ending. Is Starbuck and angel or isnt she? Seriously who the f*** cares. They jumped the shark.

Well said. The first time I saw a dream sequence in Mass Effect 3, I thought; "they better not do this ambiguous is it real or isn't it crap I hate so much." Honestly I think they made the ending in such a way is to be able to pull the "it was all a dream" card and do whatever they want in Mass Effect 4.

[KevShep]

Fibonacci wrote...

When the prothean VI said Shepard showed no signs of indroctanation it kills the theory for me. While that tidbit easier to spin than most of the oddities BEFORE the ending (did Ash get a boob-job? and why did the reaper shoot down two small shuttles in one swipe but not even notice the whole frigate not 100 feet away?) I still come up with the whole IT as just fan fic. It's actually a cool idea and nice fiction but it is not how the game was shipped.

Shepard was NOT indoctrinated then!

With you I will share what Ive been sharing. You can hear shepards voice as a wisper repeating everything the catalyst is saying as if its in his/her head. You have to listen with headphones and only listen to one at a time...right ear pice is femshep and right ear pice is maleshep.

[Galifreya]

OdanUrr wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

It is a competely incredible accomplishment, even if it was by accident on BioWare's part.

Oh, now we're saying it was an accident...

If. IF. Jiminy Crickets.... Theory. Theoretical. I'm perfectly willing to admit that the IT COULD just be a giant collection of coinsidences. But as it stands, that would be an incredibly giant coinsidence.