1057 réponses à ce sujet

[Vashete85]

The VI can detect indoctrinated people... And talk shepard without problems. TIM was in the citadel when he left his base, he sabotage the citadel and closed it...

When he talks with Shepard, TIM can control Shepard machine side (That's the reason that TIM can control more actions than Anderson). TIM only control basic movements of Anderson if you saw that scene...

The kid said that TIM can't choose cause it was adoctrinated. If you were adoctrinated, you can't choose your final decision... and reapers didn't let you to open the citadel...

[Hawk227]

M. Hanky wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

Am I invisible? He's not indoctrinated yet! Until he/you adopts the reaper worldview (control/synthesis) he's not indoctrinated.

and this would be the only sound arguement made against this particular hole with IT overall, but it doesn't address the many other issues with IT.

Like?

PS: I'm going to bed, happy to address them tomorrow.

[Hawk227]

rachellouise wrote...

so who 'built' the dreams, the reapers or shepard?

I would say its kind of a combination. Shepards mind is responding to the Reaper threat by giving it a meaning tangible to him. The Geth consensus foreshadows this (Sheps only seen quarians in their suit, so even though they weren't envirosuited during the Morning War, thats how he sees them). The final sequence on the citadel is largely symbolic. Anderson is the part of Sheps mind that is free, warning him of the danger, TIM is either Harbinger or little part of his will compromised in Arrival trying to break him. The final RGB choice is all symbolic. The reapers don't give you an ignore (destroy) button, it symbolizes shepard rejecting their worldview and breaking free. Control and Synthesis represent him accepting their worldview (like TIM or Saren, respectively).

[Erethrian]

M. Hanky wrote...

balance5050 wrote...



Actually the VI and Javik gives that information, also, Shepard wasn't indoctrinated yet, The end is the indoctrination ATTEMPT. So he wasnt even indoctrinated then.

what information did Javik or the VI give other than there were indoctrinated agents back then? Duh, everyone already knew that! you need more.

They say there were indoctrinated agents working with the crucible their VIs couldn't detect. In fact, this was Javik if I can recall.

It'd be great if someone had a video about this.

Modifié par Erethrian, 16 avril 2012 - 09:22 .

[Erethrian]

Vashete85 wrote...

The VI can detect indoctrinated people... And talk shepard without problems. TIM was in the citadel when he left his base, he sabotage the citadel and closed it...

When he talks with Shepard, TIM can control Shepard machine side (That's the reason that TIM can control more actions than Anderson). TIM only control basic movements of Anderson if you saw that scene...

The kid said that TIM can't choose cause it was adoctrinated. If you were adoctrinated, you can't choose your final decision... and reapers didn't let you to open the citadel...

That's strange because it seems Miranda thinks it's quite important for you to know that Shepard doesn't have any control device inside his/her brain.

Modifié par Erethrian, 16 avril 2012 - 09:24 .

[ZajoE38]

IT has many holes, but apart from it it rocks. But it's over now. Bioware didn't support it. So all this effort to prove or debunk it is in vain. All IT fans are fighting for nothing.

TIM was indoctrinated, but he was still trying to control them. Indoctrinated person doesn't know he is indoctrinated. He couldn't control them at last. A controlled can't control the thing that is controlling him. At least he wanted to, it was his passion. And Saren wasn't just indoctrinated, but he let him self to get implanted by Sovereign. Those eyes of his, were implants.

I know the ending sucks as it is right now. And It is too much proved that when someone can't accept something, he rather enclose him self with his own truth and find anything that can justify it. In case of ME3 the mass hysteria effect was a catalyst to this. I wanted IT to be true - but I can't agree with even if I want because facts are against IT and toward real ending. It's not making sense completely but it is valid.

[rachellouise]

so, shepard basically visualizes the act of of indoctrination? Even though no-one realizes they were being indoctrinated (In fact, I believe this was one of the points one version of the IT makes. So if this is the 'main' version, this is contradicting the IT itself)

The only one able to separate indoctrinated/non indoctrinated areas of their mind was Matriarch Benezia. Even a matriarch was unable to pull that off successfully.

Modifié par rachellouise, 16 avril 2012 - 09:29 .

[Erethrian]

rachellouise wrote...

so, shepard basically visualizes the act of of indoctrination? Even though no-one realizes they were being indoctrinated (In fact, I believe this was one of the points one version of the IT makes. So if this is the 'main' version, this is contradicting the IT itself)

The only one able to separate indoctrinated/non indoctrinated areas of their mind was Matriarch Benezia. Even a matriarch was unable to pull that off successfully.

There're lots of interpretations of the IT. Some think is all a hallucination, others think you're awake but also hallucinating (the kid not being AI but a reaper ghostly presence inside your head, trying to suggest you to choose control or even synth.), but your choice is only yours. Now as Bioware can't cause pain to Shepard as the pain described in the books (Paul Grayson is a great example while being indoctrinated and controlled) or to the player, they add a "if you choose destroy you may die, the geth wil die and so will do EDI (which somehow, cause pain).

Control is not perfect but synthesys is what Saren wanted. Also, the child doesn't say it's an AI, it says, though, he's the creator of the reapers... His solution... Well, if that child is not a ghostly presence, I don't know what it is.  Everyone should think what they want to, if you want to think everything was hallucination it's fine, if you prefer to think Shepard made it to the citadel, but there still was indoctrination going on, it's nice too. ^^


EDIT: So, what you say is true, and maybe Shepard can't say what's really going on.

Personally, I think Shep made it to the Citadel, TiM is already there, but NOT Anderson. Anderson is a hallucination TiM and Shepard are interacting with. You kill TIM, Anderson dies, and his wound is YOUR wound. The mysterious lift is or maybe it isn't real. The boy isn't real to me, nor as an AI/VI. To me that part was clearly indoctrination related. Then the choices, having read the comics/books and knowing about the ME lore, I saw the right one was "Destroy", and I thought the ghostly presence wasn't telling the truth. My allies, friends and Shep dying with Destroy, was the real "trial" for me. But this is just how I see it. Maybe something is right, and something is not. We'll see what's going on with the Extended Cut.

Modifié par Erethrian, 16 avril 2012 - 09:46 .

[ZajoE38]

We all should hold our arguing and wait till extended cut. It will be final ending of ME3. And we will have to accept it, no matter what. That of course doesn't automatically mean we will like it. I know a few people who don't like the top rated movies either. Ending now as it is, is not complete. So give them chance to finish it and then we will be wiser.

[M. Hanky]

Hawk227 wrote...

M. Hanky wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

Am I invisible? He's not indoctrinated yet! Until he/you adopts the reaper worldview (control/synthesis) he's not indoctrinated.

and this would be the only sound arguement made against this particular hole with IT overall, but it doesn't address the many other issues with IT.

Like?

PS: I'm going to bed, happy to address them tomorrow.

Everything that happens after his supposed indoctrination. What evidence is out there that the Normandy's crash landing is some ellaborate daydream of Shepard's hopes and dreams? It's far more likely that it's crappy writing. This thread is about pointing out plot holes in the IT. if you're going to bother to explain this one, please do so in a manner other than "it doesn't make sense that Joker's running away, IT is the ONLY explaination" because there's always another explaination.

[Vashete85]

Erethrian wrote...

Vashete85 wrote...

The VI can detect indoctrinated people... And talk shepard without problems. TIM was in the citadel when he left his base, he sabotage the citadel and closed it...

When he talks with Shepard, TIM can control Shepard machine side (That's the reason that TIM can control more actions than Anderson). TIM only control basic movements of Anderson if you saw that scene...

The kid said that TIM can't choose cause it was adoctrinated. If you were adoctrinated, you can't choose your final decision... and reapers didn't let you to open the citadel...

That's strange because it seems Miranda thinks it's quite important for you to know that Shepard doesn't have any control device inside his/her brain.

Yeah, but who knows if his lab partner do anything on Shepard's brain It's just a theory

[ZajoE38]

With or without the chip, after TIM got implanted with Reaper tech - he gains special abilities. And we know that we can control/hack other organics from ME2 - Dominate or Neural shock. So it is possible.

[Stegoceras]

After thinking about it some more, the biggest problem with the theory is not the fact that it has holes but that the current endings themselves have so much holes literally any theory could be applied to the endings and make some sort of sense without disrupting too much of what is established.

I mean, I could state a ridiculous theory that everything that is happening is actually all done by a pink elephant god playing with toys representing the mass effect galaxy in his room.
- How does TIM get to the Citadel? Elephant god places him there.
- Why is Joker running? Elephant god threw him through the room.
- Why is Shepard back on earth when you choose destroy? Elephant god moved him
- Why is starkid there? Elephant god got a new toy from his elephant god parents.

I know it's an utterly ridicolous theory and it doesn't at all debunk the IT theory, but it proves that these theories aren''t really build on solid ground in the first place, so literally anything could have happened and if you look at it this way I find it more logical that the ending we have is indeed what we were supossed to get, otherwise the signs would probably have been more conclusive.

Thus in the end I sort of agree with what was said earlier in the thread, it's okay if Indoctrination Theory actually happens (although I would feel a bit peeved about having been suckered into buying an incomplete game), but it would probably be a greater disappointment for the people who are already so firmly believing it to be the only option, when a great many roads are still open.

[SubAstris]

Hawk227 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...



At the point when there is the meeting between Anderson and
TIM, the Reapers would still want to indoctrinate Shephard, still try and make
him think that he can possibly control them if he wishes (and so fall for the
same trick as TIM). It is also the egomaniacal TIM trying to find some
justification for his beliefs. However, the presence of the Catalyst changes
this, it says that even if TIM wanted to control the Reapers he couldn't
because they already controlled him. Now Shephard is not indoctrinated, as
noted by the fact that he doesn't fall for TIM's rhetoric, and so has the
ability to control/destroy the Reapers or choose synthesis.

That makes no sense. TIM can indoctrinate him by just talking to him? Come on.

The egomaniacal TIM justifying his beliefs would make sense... except he stated earlier that he was done with shepard, shepard had outlived his usefulness. Also, TIM is indoctrinated, if he's trying to convince shepard to do it, because shepard can actually pull it off, the reapers would reign him in. When Saren deviated from Reapers goals, he got a mindshock and put back on topic.

Devs want speculation, but not when it is going to damage business like it is
doing now.

And yet that's exactly what happened, whether IT is real or not. They made a bad ending for the sake of speculation, it is hurting business. Regardless of interpretation. How does this refute IT?

You can do all those things in your mind, but if you really left it to your
mind, why did you have buy ME3 and ME2 (which I presume you also have)? Because
you want to see it actually played out in the game, you want to be part of it.

Theres a big difference between imagining 10 minutes and 100 hours. I already agreed playing it would be better, preferably in DLC and preferably now. I've just given an alternate plausible explanation for why DLC isn't coming till summer.

I highly doubt it would be a last minute gamble, game development companies
have tight schedules and don't just add stuff for the sake of it right at the
end. Things are planned well in advance and so it is unlikely that such a thing
would happen ad hoc.

The dark energy ending was leaked last year, a decent ways into production. They obviously changed it, and did so late in the process. There isn't much to argue about this. The question is did they change it to a stupid ending that ripped off Deus Ex, or did they decide to go big and try indoctrination? I lean towards the latter. You welcome to lean towards the former, but the fact remains they changed the ending midway through development.

I personally believe that it is possible that Shephard survived on the Citadel,
given the evidence of cables which look incredibly similar to those on the
Citadel (why would BW put them in if not needed?) and are nowhere to be seen
around the beam,. Also the rubble could have only really come from the Citadel,
there are too many sharp edges for it to be non-manufactured and part of a
building, yet there are few buildings on Earth around the beam area. Not to
mention some comments by BW themselves

Those cables are reaper cables, they show up where ever the reapers have set up infrastructure. They're also loosely associated with indoctrination. The Rachni queen is surrounded by a bunch of them, Legion is hooked up to a bunch of them on the Geth Dreadnought. To me they symbolize indoctrination. The scene on earth is in the middle of london, the reapers bulldozed a bunch of area to create "no man's land". There can't be broken up walls etc there? Furthermore, that rubble is broken up the way stone or concrete would break. It's crumbly instead of sheared like metal. The citadel is metal.

That cable is the second most conspicous thing in that shot along with the N7 tags. That tells me its a hint (you may disagree, but apparently you dont). The N7 tags say it's shepard, what does the cable say? Well you could really carefully look up to beams on the crucible and squint real hard and maybe see them (or use that fly cam), or you can think back to the prominent moments you saw them before (rachni queen and legion). Which is a more realistic clue?

I'm not sure why you think he could've survived. Bioware has said there are bunkers in the wards that people like Aria could have survived at. Shepard was on the outside of the citadel tower, at the epicenter of a very big explosion. I don't even think he could have that convo with the catalyst without a helmet and survive. He was out in space. In ME1 you run up a similar area of the citadel tower, and you've got your helmet on. (I know you're gonna say mass effect field around crucible, I guess that's fine. But kind of lame. Continuity fail.)

I suppose when you say there is no reason why he should be on Earth is due to
the unlikeliness of re-entry rather than against IT (because that is what IT
states)?

IT says he couldn't have survived the explostion on the citadel, nor survived reentry, therefore he's on earth. The crumbly concrete rubble reinforces this.

IT needs to be stated explicitly at the end given that the ending needs to
provide closure. It should be completely unambiguous so that all audience immediately
get it, not just a tiny minority (which seems to have happened here). Otherwise
it is bad storytelling.

I feel like a broken record. Bioware wanted speculation, this is irrefutable (see Mac Walters notes in Final Hours app). Either way we were getting an ambiguous ending. In the IT interpretation, the player (you) is indoctrinated. In order for this to work and have an impact (ie: good storytelling) they can't tell you right away.

Bioware likes to be cryptic about things. It's minor compared to the ending, but they indirectly tell you that Joker's sister is dead. You have to listen to the Asari PTSD sufferer on memorial and talk to joker enough to hear about his sister, and then you need to put 2 and 2 together.

BW and EA don't care what people put on Youtube, if they really wanted to they
could easily ban all videos featuring Mass Effect. The fact is that it is in
their commercial interest to have these things up. You would have the same
problem anyway whenever they release it because still a lot of people who in
the future who will play Mass Effect would find out the true ending and so ruin
it for themselves

You clearly missed the point. Maybe that's my bad. Player indoctrination is a unique experience. Saren and TIM believed they weren't indoctrinated, even though they were very familiar with the process. To replicate that experience in the player, they can't come out and tell you. It undermines the effect for you (sovereign never told saren, it was shepard that finally convinced him he was indoctrinated), and a side effect of that is the people who finish quickly put the ending on youtube and potentially ruin the experience for the late arrivals (Say, Japan, who got the game a couple weeks later than everyone else). Doing it this way preserves the ending for 6 months or so.

No, TIM can try and persuade him. They can't ,however, just force him to believe in control, as you have noted. Shephard needs convincing (that is how indoctrination occurs, by thinking that the Reapers' goal and yours are the same).

What would "mindshocking" TIM do? I already said that TIM is trying for the last time to convince Shephard that control is the best option, and so fall for indoctrination as well. Making TIM shock back into life would not be effective. And even though TIM has already said that he is done with Shephard, that is said at much earlier parts of the game, when TIM is feeling confident and about defeating Shephard and carrying on his master plan. However by this stage everything seems to be going wrong, it is an outburst by TIM

I knew that one of the main writers said a dark ending was considered, but whether it was actually put into the game, have you got much or any evidence for that? BTW having a Deus Ex ending would cost so much less time and resources than inserting all these evidences for indoctrination that could take a hell of a long time to do, esp. if they are meant to be as subtle as IT theorists say they are without anyone really knowing until the end.

I think you are taking it too far that saying Reaper cables=indoctrination. They can be part of the indoctrination purpose, but certainly not necessary. But let's assume they are indicative of indoctrination, shouldn't they be removed by the breathing scene since Shephard has now apparently resisted indoctrination?

There can be broken walls there, but the fact is there aren't any at all in this so-called "no man's land", it is essentially a flat concrete plain. Now where all this rubble comes from, I guess non-existent buildings or a rapid
wind which swept a lot of rubble right to where Shephard is lying, but none of those things seem very likely, do they?

And the Citadel is not made of metal...

What is a more realistic reference, referring to something you just saw and were easily visible or way back in the middle of the game? Ermmm...

I would bring up the mass effect fields, yes you might not like it but it is plausible. Who said BW don't make mistakes? Also there is a good literary reason for no breathing equipment, it can seem rather cumbersome and you don't want to hear muffled dialogue for the most important lines of the entire trilogy. Even if it was logical that breathing equipment was needed, I would personally have gone with the more dramatic flourish, drama takes precedent over lore here.

Furthermore, idk about  the reliability of these tweets from community manager Jessica Merizan, but one of them indicates explicitly that Shephard was on the Citadel and no re-entry took place. Thoughts?

[Erethrian]

Vashete85 wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

Vashete85 wrote...

The VI can detect indoctrinated people... And talk shepard without problems. TIM was in the citadel when he left his base, he sabotage the citadel and closed it...

When he talks with Shepard, TIM can control Shepard machine side (That's the reason that TIM can control more actions than Anderson). TIM only control basic movements of Anderson if you saw that scene...

The kid said that TIM can't choose cause it was adoctrinated. If you were adoctrinated, you can't choose your final decision... and reapers didn't let you to open the citadel...

That's strange because it seems Miranda thinks it's quite important for you to know that Shepard doesn't have any control device inside his/her brain.

Yeah, but who knows if his lab partner do anything on Shepard's brain It's just a theory

Well, indeed, who knows? ^^ Maybe there's not indoctrination at all... but I tend to think the last part (at least the one with the ghost child) is indoctrination.

The kid said that TIM can't choose cause it was adoctrinated. If you
were adoctrinated, you can't choose your final decision... and reapers
didn't let you to open the citadel...

Also, about this. Paul Grayson was also indoctrinated, but he had his own will, and he tried to act against the will of the reapers a lot of times, even if that meant a lot of pain. As I said before, in this specific case, BW can't let us know if Shepard is having that kind of pain inside his mind, and they can't cause us pain. So, they create a ghostly presence, maybe forcing Shepard (suggesting her/him to believe it's an AI) to believe what the child says. But the reapers haven't won yet, they have to convince you that their way (synth) or control is the right way, and as BW can't cause us the kind of pain described when Grayson fights against the reapers, they give us two bad options, and a terrible one. Our allies will die, EDI will die, and maybe Shepard will die, but the reapers will be destroyed. Even if Shepard is not invulnerable to indoctrination we know he has a strong will, so if you choose destroy, the reapers are destroyed, the presence disappears, and you eventually survive if your EMS are high enough. Doesn't that mean the Geth and EDI survived? I want to believe so, but well have to wait for the Extended Cut.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

M. Hanky wrote...

once again, stop forcing the evidence to conform to your conclusion. you have yet to offer anything but conjecture. The VI MIGHT be wrong because indoctrinated sleeper agents MIGHT have sabotaged it even though there's NOTHING that suggests this in the game. If this idea had any basis, SOMETHING more than "something like cerberus happened 50,000 years ago" would have alluded to it.

Actually the VI and Javik gives that information, also, Shepard wasn't indoctrinated yet, The end is the indoctrination ATTEMPT. So he wasnt even indoctrinated then.

So stuff like the child are not hallucinations?

[dreman9999]

Vashete85 wrote...

Erethrian wrote...

Vashete85 wrote...

The VI can detect indoctrinated people... And talk shepard without problems. TIM was in the citadel when he left his base, he sabotage the citadel and closed it...

When he talks with Shepard, TIM can control Shepard machine side (That's the reason that TIM can control more actions than Anderson). TIM only control basic movements of Anderson if you saw that scene...

The kid said that TIM can't choose cause it was adoctrinated. If you were adoctrinated, you can't choose your final decision... and reapers didn't let you to open the citadel...

That's strange because it seems Miranda thinks it's quite important for you to know that Shepard doesn't have any control device inside his/her brain.

Yeah, but who knows if his lab partner do anything on Shepard's brain It's just a theory

If that was true, why couldn't TIM stop Shepard from shooting him?

[dreman9999]

M. Hanky wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Prothean VI is one of the weakest IT problems

The V.I. is not full proof, it can most likely only detect reaper implants/tech. The VI states "There was a splinter group that thought they could "control" the reapers, they were later found to be indoctrinated." Sound familiar? Javik also tells you that every last one of his crew members became indoctrinated and he had to slit their throuts one by one.

The only indoctrination that shep would be going through would be psychological... subtle... barely noticable even to Shepard himself.

Simply saying that the VI isn't fool-proof isn't a valid form of evidence for IT, or a truly effective arguement against this particular hole. you're just stretching the evidence to fit your conclusion. you need some evidence to suggest that the VI is incapable of distinguishing between someone who is indoctrinated and someone who is not. And as far as the group of indoctrinated protheans, they weren't the ones who were working on the Crucible in their time, which are the protheans who created that particular VI.

Yes it is...The fact that it did not work before means the reaper have away to work around it. If it trick the prothean VI on 2 protheansecret projects, then they can do it agein.

Modifié par dreman9999, 16 avril 2012 - 01:04 .

[dreman9999]

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

TIM represents human ambition, not indoctrination. He only 'represented' indoctrination in the last movie, and those eyes had nothing to do with his process of indoctrination, it's his obsession over the remains of the collector base that finally did him in.

Wut. Reaper tech indoctrinates and TIM got those eyes from reaper tech/artifact. The Thessia VI states "There was a splinter group who sought to use the crucible to "control the reaper" this splinter group was later found to be indoctrinated" Sound familiar? TIM is indoctrinated at the end of the game, he represents how the desire to "control" will lead you to indoctrination.

Again, if he was indoctrinated before he would never have helped you defeat the collectors, yet he did help you defeat the collectors, and yet he still had those eyes. Therefore, those eyes have nothing whatsoever to do with his indoctrination. They do indicate an unhealthy obsession with reaper tech, but nothing more.

The more useful the thrall, the more they let them keep their free will, otherwise they would just become husks. TIM was studying indoctrination, he originally got his eyes from reapers tech. It writes itself bro.

Ok...Let's try to use good sense here...At that point who would make a better thrall, a masterious Man no one trues, or Shepard, a person everyone looks up to and calls a hero and trust?
Anyone with any sense would see that indoctination Shepard is bettter for their invation be in the fact that Shepard would be in the middle of commad of the human forces. Use some deductive reasoning.

[NoSpin]

Something that everyone seems to have a hard time understanding.... Indoctrination=/= indoctrination process.

Why doesn't the VI detect Shep? He isn't indoctrinated YET. Why does Shep have those dreams/see the kid? The indoctrination process, the reapers trying to gain entry into his mind.

Shepard is only indoctrinated if you choose Synthesis or Control, you finally believing that your goals and those of the reapers are the same. The whole scene on the "citadel" is Harbinger himself "charging the beam". He's going all out on his indoctrination attempt now, and after spending the whole game slowly gaining entry he finally reaches the point where indoctrination fails or succeeds- the final choices.

Modifié par NoSpin, 16 avril 2012 - 01:17 .

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

M. Hanky wrote...

once again, stop forcing the evidence to conform to your conclusion. you have yet to offer anything but conjecture. The VI MIGHT be wrong because indoctrinated sleeper agents MIGHT have sabotaged it even though there's NOTHING that suggests this in the game. If this idea had any basis, SOMETHING more than "something like cerberus happened 50,000 years ago" would have alluded to it.

Actually the VI and Javik gives that information, also, Shepard wasn't indoctrinated yet, The end is the indoctrination ATTEMPT. So he wasnt even indoctrinated then.

So stuff like the child are not hallucinations?

Process of indoctrination also mean the reapers can still effect him but not control him. The hallucinations would be covered under effecting him.

[dreman9999]

NoSpin wrote...

Something that everyone seems to have a hard time understanding.... Indoctrination=/= indoctrination process.

Why doesn't the VI detect Shep? He isn't indoctrinated YET. Why does Shep have those dreams/see the kid? The indoctrination process, the reapers trying to gain entry into his mind.

Shepard is only indoctrinated if you choose Synthesis or Control, you finally believing that your goals and those of the reapers are the same. The whole scene on the "citadel" is Harbinger himself "charging the beam". He's going all out on his indoctrination attempt now, and after spending the whole game slowly gaining entry he finally reaches the point where indoctrination fails or succeeds- the final choices.

Indoctrination comes in stages...This has been stated from ME1. Remeber Dr . kenson on arrival and who when you first met her she act totally normal?
Remeber Rana Thanoptis from ME1? http://masseffect.wi.../Rana_Thanoptis 

Let also not forget the the project theVI were on falled because of reaper sleeper agents in there ranks. Thes are Vi with the abilaty to detact indoctination but the failed. It clear that the reapers have away around it.

[STEEEEVE]

It's so ridiculous that IT acolytes think that Sheploo hearing femshep's voice, when she doesn't even EXIST in a manshep playthrough, or vice-versa, is proof of Indoctrination Theory.

[STEEEEVE]

dreman9999 wrote...

NoSpin wrote...

Something that everyone seems to have a hard time understanding.... Indoctrination=/= indoctrination process.

Why doesn't the VI detect Shep? He isn't indoctrinated YET. Why does Shep have those dreams/see the kid? The indoctrination process, the reapers trying to gain entry into his mind.

Shepard is only indoctrinated if you choose Synthesis or Control, you finally believing that your goals and those of the reapers are the same. The whole scene on the "citadel" is Harbinger himself "charging the beam". He's going all out on his indoctrination attempt now, and after spending the whole game slowly gaining entry he finally reaches the point where indoctrination fails or succeeds- the final choices.

Indoctrination comes in stages...This has been stated from ME1. Remeber Dr . kenson on arrival and who when you first met her she act totally normal?
Remeber Rana Thanoptis from ME1? http://masseffect.wi...Rana_Thanoptis 

Let also not forget the the project theVI were on falled because of reaper sleeper agents in there ranks. Thes are Vi with the abilaty to detact indoctination but the failed. It clear that the reapers have away around it.

That explaination is weak sauce.  TIM wasn't fully indoctrinated either.  IT just. doesn't. work. 

[SubAstris]

NoSpin wrote...

Something that everyone seems to have a hard time understanding.... Indoctrination=/= indoctrination process.

Why doesn't the VI detect Shep? He isn't indoctrinated YET. Why does Shep have those dreams/see the kid? The indoctrination process, the reapers trying to gain entry into his mind.

Shepard is only indoctrinated if you choose Synthesis or Control, you finally believing that your goals and those of the reapers are the same. The whole scene on the "citadel" is Harbinger himself "charging the beam". He's going all out on his indoctrination attempt now, and after spending the whole game slowly gaining entry he finally reaches the point where indoctrination fails or succeeds- the final choices.

The fact that he does see the kid, according to IT, is because the Reapers have sufficient control of his mind to insert such images, yes. How is this not indoctrination exactly?