First off, thanks to those who replied to my earlier posts, thanks for managing to read through my rambling replies and what not!
IT makes compelling arguments that a lot of people wish to be true (myself included on some areas), but simply leave as many questions as the endings we've seen. I'll be honest and say I disagree with IT because I firmly believe this was a case of bad writing, or simply writing for dramatic effect (cue supposed gut wrenching choice, cue sacrifice, cue friends/family in peril, cue scene that shows somehow the galaxy survives well into the future, etc.). As bad as the ending (as it is) is, I'm even more sure that they would not have gambled with the IT experiment only to leave it unanswered for months. The point of twist endings is--more often than not--an immediate payoff. The 'gotcha!' moment as been mentioned before. Letting the fans speculate and hoping they get it is just as bad as a plot-hole-laden ending. Not to mention that there was never any indication from BioWare that 'clarification' was forthcoming BEFORE the uproar and tumult that resulted from the ending. Had the last message (the 'buy more DLC!' prompt) read, "The end...?" with a static shower, or the sound of Shepard breathing hard, or a silhouette of Harbinger, or of Shepard with freaky Husk eyes or whatever, then we'd have a different discussion. As is, only part (a big part, mind) of those *vocally* disastisfied with the ending believe in the Indoctrination Theory. ANYway, with that out of the way...
A lot of my more specific problems with IT itself is that it supposes a lot of things that we apparently can no longer take on face value. To be clear, I'm one of those people who feel that the writer/director needs to present things as face value, unless there's a clear precedent or foreshadowing indicating there might be an ulterior motive or meaning beneath what is presented. i.e. 'The Sixth Sense', if we must compare ME3 to something beyond its own media. So, in short, it's face value until something within the media says otherwise (the protagonist, the antagonist, an event, a secondary character, etc.). Onward:
-Vendetta, the Prothen VI, is broken/defective/ineffective: While in the real world very few things are every foolproof, I find it hard to accept that Vendetta is anything but what it says it is, and does what it says it does. Just as others have quickly explained the Crucible project and other Prothean endeavours were subject to infiltration by indoctrinated Protheans, can just as quickly and easily explain that Vendetta was like Vigil, a VI created AFTER a series of events. I can explain that Vendetta was the accumulation of knowledge by Pashek Vran after the Crucible project had already failed, used his and other scientists' research into Indoctrination after centuries of war, installed it with the ability to not only detect Reapers but Indoctrinated individuals (while accounting for genetic variance, i.e. human DNA--Kai Leng--versus Prothean DNA), gave the VI to Athame to hide away in Thessia, all in the hope that the next cycle (they knew there would be a next cycle as the Protheans are proof positive of that) will find the plans to the Crucible and the Catalyst early enough for it to matter. I firmly believe this theory. I have no real evidence to support it (nothing is writen in game, in media outside the game, or spoken by developers) other than the character of the Protheans themselves, and the fact that Vigil--the Ilos Prothean VI--is evidence that they do in fact leave messages/knowledge for the next cycle to learn from.
-Vendetta sabotaged: (link to original post in quoted poster's name)
M. Hanky wrote...
And
while I'll give you that sabotaging the VI's ability to distinguish
between indoctrinated and not indoctrinated would be highly effective,
I'm sure they'd be much more effect sabotaging a couple of other things.
First: erasing knowledge that the Catalyst is the Citadel. If the
Reapers don't want to be defeated in the next cycle, this would be
number 1. For that matter, the Illusive Man wouldn't have needed to warn
the Reapers of this if the Crucible project under the Protheans had
been infiltrated, because they would have already known. Second: don't
you think that destroying/corrupting the plans for the Crucible would
have been better? If sleeper Reaper agents were going to sabotage the
VI's ability to tell that they were indoctrinated in the first place
(which would be hard if the VI can tell. Probably why they programed it
with that ability in the first place) then why not go all the way and
destroy the plans for the Crucible in the first place?
Supposing that--counter to my previous point above--Vendetta was indeed sabotaged prior to its placement in Thessia, what is the motivation of allowing the next cycle even the
chance of finding the Catalyst? What if the Illusion Man and Kai Leng were not around, or came too late? Shepard and company would have rushed off to the Normandy, brought the Crucible to the Citadel (the Citadel and its system itself was one of the few places left untouched by the Reapers), and activated the Crucible before anyone else was any wiser. We all know that the 'starchild' would have simply let Shepard waltz right in and make one of three choices that supposedly fixes the galaxy
Vendetta issue in short: it being ineffective from the get go loses Vendetta's value as a repository of knowledge, and even if it was ineffective, the fact that it still gave valuable information anyway meant it failed as a Reaper ruse. Thus, I can only take it at face value.
The Issue of Indoctrination itself: This has always been the trickiest aspect of this whole thing. How was Shepard indoctrinated? When was Shepard indoctrinated? What are the stages of indoctrination and how do they manifest?
I'm a bit of a tyrant in this regard. As little as we truly know of indoctrination and its myriad stages, levels of effect, and what a Reaper can or cannot do with the victim, I like to think of it as absolutes: Shepard is either indoctrinated, or not. Whether it was at Arrival (two days with Project Rho), or shortly before his confrontation with the Illusive Man.
Arrival: This is the most plausible time for Shepard to be indoctrinated. And I don't mean his/her mind was made susceptible to indoctrination. The way I view it once you're susceptible to indoctrination then you already are indoctrinated. But, since I prescribe to the idea that Vendetta is--and does what it says--at face value, then to me Shepard could not have been indoctrinated during Arrival.
After Vendetta: this is a little more clear cut to me. It's already been stated in the Codex and myriad videos (Acavyos' own included) that short term, brute force, indoctrination has a very detrimental effect on the victim. And, because Shepard (I know there are conjectures here about his already being exposed to Reaper tech, to Reapers themselves, etc.) hasn't been around a piece of Reaper tech that acts as a singal booster of the Reapers' influence (i.e. Project Rho, the Reapers themselves derelict or otherwise, the artifact Saren's brother and the Illusive Man--aka Jack Harper--found in Shanxi) then there's no plausible way he/she could have been Indoctrinated. I ascribe to this as it is something I've seen or read in Mass Effect media. One cannot be Indoctrinated without constant exposure to a Reaper, or a piece of Reaper tech specifically designed to indoctrinate. And, again, re: Arrival argument as to why Project Rho would not count. Also, if brute force indoctrination occured, then there would be no way Shepard would still fight so hard to
*fight so hard* against the Reapers. He/she would be a shell of themselves, little more than a puppet, espousing Reaper doctrine, or worshipping Reapers, or at the very least, he or she would come off as very mentally unstable to his/her crew and squad.
(again, link in quoted poster's name)
SubAstris wrote...
How
is conjuring up imaginary beings such as the child constitute them not
having control of his advance thinking patterns? That is quite a thing
to do, it is a full-blown hallucination.
I concur. We're not talking about subtle and pervasive persuasion anymore: we're pretty much teetering on mind-control (I know, counterargument: Shepard is still fighting inside his own mind). This is a very detailed false reality involving characters and events and consequences that play on Shepard's psyche. We're no longer at simple 'whispers' here. Both the Illusive Man and Saren--individuals that were heavily indoctrinated--never exhibited signs of hallucination. They both retained their charismatic, action-oriented selves. Both characters always gave me the impression of people who were
convinced that fighting the Reapers is a fruitless endeavour. Likewise with Benezia; she was convinced that Saren was right, that she should follow him and help him with his plans. Again, we're not talking brute-force, short term indoctrination; we're talking about making use of key people to further Reaper goals. Long-term indoctrination, by my own argument, is not possible with Shepard (re: Arrival argument and Vendetta argument above). And the kind of subtle manipulation that results in 'gently' coercing Shepard towards Reaper-friendly actions and motivations is not possible in the short-term. And, clearly, brute-force mind-control is also not possible because Shepard still had a mind of his own, and was clearly given choices.
rachellouise wrote...
well if shepard is visualizing
indoctrination, it contradicts the point made several times by IT
supporters, people do not know they are being indoctrinated.
If
it is the reapers constructing this other 'reality' for you, then they
/are/ controlling via suggestion. Therefore, shepard is already
indoctrinated.
for emphasis.
tute wrote...
An example would be
the cerberus scientists on the derelict reaper. They both have the same
memories and same dreams about a wedding that they believe they
experienced. At that moment they still had full control of themselves,
but were being influenced by the reaper.
I can counter with a simple explanation: These two men know each other, have traded stories. The Reaper indoctrination has confused the information they have, and can no longer tell whose story belongs to whom (who?). The two men clearly know something is wrong because they cannot both be part of the same story as the same character. This isn't a hallucination on one or both parties; it's disorientation, something that Shepard does not exhibit at the end of the trilogy. At no point during the game did Shepard exhibit these symptoms; he/she was always calm, composed, if a bit emotional at times (Renegade).
And finally, the Nightmares: To me these seemed to be BioWare's attempt at PTSD. Losing--nay,
sacrificing--friends, killing a planet of batarians (even if in the name of the greater galactic good), seeing your home planet under attack, watching helplessly as a child you could have saved is killed, losing even more friends, and of course, the fact that you're fighting giant leaf insect nymphs trying to eradicate all spacefaring organic life in the galaxy.
Anyhoo, there I go again, rambling. I think it's time for me to exit stage left on this thread and debate. Thanks to all who responded to my posts specifically. You were all civil and courteous and countered eloquently. Respectfully, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. But it was fun, though!
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