1057 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

Fibonacci wrote...

When the prothean VI said Shepard showed no signs of indroctanation it kills the theory for me. While that tidbit easier to spin than most of the oddities BEFORE the ending (did Ash get a boob-job? and why did the reaper shoot down two small shuttles in one swipe but not even notice the whole frigate not 100 feet away?) I still come up with the whole IT as just fan fic. It's actually a cool idea and nice fiction but it is not how the game was shipped.

Wow, haven't seen a prothean VI reference for a day or two. The prothean VI can only detect reaper implants, not the subtle and undetectable psychological type that shepard goes through. The VI even tells you that the last cycle was sabotaged by sleeper agents who were later discovered to be indoctrinated.

[NM_Che56]

Gallifreya wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Then if you picked wrong then your shepard dies thats why the game starts you back before you take the cerberus base.

"Picked wrong" is the wrong way of looking at it...

 remember that Its not the end. 

If shepards being indoctrinated then doesnt it make sense to also make the player think they are not getting indoctrinated as well? 

YES IT DOES. Perfect sense. Why on Earth would BioWare want to alienate you from your Shepard? This is the MOST BioWare has EVER connected the player to -their specific Shepard-. It LITERALLY puts you into Shepard's shoes of having to go through the frustration and indignancy that goes along with being indoctrinated. It is a competely incredible accomplishment, even if it was by accident on BioWare's part.

I was never so upset for any fictional character IN MY LIFE. I just kept shouting at her, "JUST TELL HIM NO! JUST SAY NO! NOOOOOO!!!" Kicking and screaming. It was like a nightmare I wanted to wake up from.

But she wouldn't. Just like you can't run as fast as you'd like to in a dream. Just like you can't speak sometimes as you'd like to when in a dream. You lose control.

I agree

[OdanUrr]

Gallifreya wrote...

But as it stands, that would be an incredibly giant coinsidence.

For you, maybe. This comes down to interpreting some data to fit an idea.

[NM_Che56]

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Bioware rep quote follows:

Mike Gamble: The Indoctrination Theory illustrates again how committed the fanbase is. (Laughter from Audience). We don't want to comment either way on it, here is why. We don't want to be prescriptive on how people interpret the ending, especially with the Extended Cut, DLC coming out, we don't want to be prescriptive with how people think things ended, we want the content to speak for itself. And we'll let it do so.

Much like the ending itself he tries to be noncommittal. Their plan wasn't IT theory. Their plan was to add ambiguity to the ending of the game to spawn discussion. Basically they wanted to give us another annoying Battlestar Galactica ending. Is Starbuck and angel or isnt she? Seriously who the f*** cares. They jumped the shark.

interesting theory.

[CaliGuy033]

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

Modifié par CaliGuy033, 13 avril 2012 - 05:57 .

[Galifreya]

Fibonacci wrote...

When the prothean VI said Shepard showed no signs of indroctanation it kills the theory for me. While that tidbit easier to spin than most of the oddities BEFORE the ending (did Ash get a boob-job? and why did the reaper shoot down two small shuttles in one swipe but not even notice the whole frigate not 100 feet away?) I still come up with the whole IT as just fan fic. It's actually a cool idea and nice fiction but it is not how the game was shipped.

This has been discussed and discussed over and over in other threads.... Shepard isn't indoctrinated YET when s/he comes into contact with the VI. Kai Leng IS indoctrinated. Completely. Even if the Reapers specifically don't control Kai Leng, his indoctrination is through the Illusive Man....who is presumably -really- being controlled by the Reapers.

This doesn't kill the theory.

[TheTrueObelus]

Master Che wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Bioware rep quote follows:

Mike Gamble: The Indoctrination Theory illustrates again how committed the fanbase is. (Laughter from Audience). We don't want to comment either way on it, here is why. We don't want to be prescriptive on how people interpret the ending, especially with the Extended Cut, DLC coming out, we don't want to be prescriptive with how people think things ended, we want the content to speak for itself. And we'll let it do so.

Much like the ending itself he tries to be noncommittal. Their plan wasn't IT theory. Their plan was to add ambiguity to the ending of the game to spawn discussion. Basically they wanted to give us another annoying Battlestar Galactica ending. Is Starbuck and angel or isnt she? Seriously who the f*** cares. They jumped the shark.

interesting theory.

You post why ambiguity theory doesn't work and then someone who supports ambiguity theory can try to address that concern.

...

[Galifreya]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

A higher EMS means the Reapers have more to fear because a Shepard that does everything in his/her power to try and stop them is more of a threat than a Shepard that slacked (in any way).

In short? The Reapers don't want to control someone they don't think is very much of a threat. They can defeat the galaxy without a Shepard Thrall commanding their forces, because the forces of the galaxy haven't been united as well against them, due to that type of Shepard's carelessness.

Think about how terrifying Shepard would be all...Saren-ified. The galactic community would lose ALL hope.

Modifié par Gallifreya, 13 avril 2012 - 06:05 .

[OdanUrr]

Gallifreya wrote...

Fibonacci wrote...

When the prothean VI said Shepard showed no signs of indroctanation it kills the theory for me. While that tidbit easier to spin than most of the oddities BEFORE the ending (did Ash get a boob-job? and why did the reaper shoot down two small shuttles in one swipe but not even notice the whole frigate not 100 feet away?) I still come up with the whole IT as just fan fic. It's actually a cool idea and nice fiction but it is not how the game was shipped.

This has been discussed and discussed over and over in other threads.... Shepard isn't indoctrinated YET when s/he comes into contact with the VI. Kai Leng IS indoctrinated. Completely. Even if the Reapers specifically don't control Kai Leng, his indoctrination is through the Illusive Man....who is presumably -really- being controlled by the Reapers.

This doesn't kill the theory.

Maybe not, but it does make it less likely.

[balance5050]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

Higher EMS = bigger army to kill reaper.

The higher the EMS, the more the reapers need to indoctrinate shepard to have a chance at survival. You need the HIGHEST EMS for the Shep alive scene.

[CaliGuy033]

Gallifreya wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

A higher EMS means the Reapers have more to fear because a Shepard that does everything in his/her power to try and stop them is more of a threat than s Shepard that slacked (in any way).

I hope you realize that this explanation makes very, very little sense.  "We have more to fear, so......now we'll give him a THIRD option.  That'll trick him!  He wasn't going to submit before, but now he will!"

Modifié par CaliGuy033, 13 avril 2012 - 06:04 .

[ajm317]

Gallifreya wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

A higher EMS means the Reapers have more to fear because a Shepard that does everything in his/her power to try and stop them is more of a threat than s Shepard that slacked (in any way).

In short? The Reapers don't want to control someone they don't think is very much of a threat. They can defeat the galaxy without a Shepard Thrall commanding their forces, because the forces of the galaxy haven't been united as well against them, due to that type of Shepard's carelessness.

Think about how terrifying Shepard would be all...Saren-ified. The galactic community would lose ALL hope.

Why am I seeing the dream at all then?  Why trot out the Starchild just to drop the whole charade at the end and let Shepard bleed out?  Instead of only showing the me the option I really want, shouldn't things just go black after the laser if IT is true?

[rachellouise]

And going by that, it would be more likely for shepard to survive if you have low EMS, but you don't, at all.

[NM_Che56]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

A higher EMS means the Reapers have more to fear because a Shepard that does everything in his/her power to try and stop them is more of a threat than s Shepard that slacked (in any way).

I hope you realize that this explanation makes very, very little sense.  "We have more to fear, so......now we'll give him a THIRD option.  That'll trick him!  He wasn't going to submit before, but now he will!"

Could just be a game mechnic that has nothing to do with it. 

OR, by amassing enough war assets you've shown that you're worthy of this option?

[jijeebo]

balance5050 wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

Higher EMS = bigger army to kill reaper.

The higher the EMS, the more the reapers need to indoctrinate shepard to have a chance at survival. You need the HIGHEST EMS for the Shep alive scene.

That still doesn't make sense... Why would they make the hardest to obtain ending a "wrong" one?

Surely only the best of Sheps would be able to overcome this savage indoc attempt? 

[CaliGuy033]

balance5050 wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

Higher EMS = bigger army to kill reaper.

The higher the EMS, the more the reapers need to indoctrinate shepard to have a chance at survival. You need the HIGHEST EMS for the Shep alive scene.

This doesn't answer my question.  How does needing to indoctrinate him "more" equate to giving him a third choice?  It doesn't make one bit of sense.

Say I want you to take the blue pill, but the "correct" choice (which will harm me) is the red pill.  And I realize that you are very very powerful and I am in a whole mess of trouble if you take the red pill.  The way I trick you isn't to introduce a third option which is actually the same as the blue pill.  The way to trick you is to make the blue pill seem even more appealing--"No, you REALLY need to pick this one. Here's why."

[tetsutsuru]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

A higher EMS means the Reapers have more to fear because a Shepard that does everything in his/her power to try and stop them is more of a threat than s Shepard that slacked (in any way).

I hope you realize that this explanation makes very, very little sense.  "We have more to fear, so......now we'll give him a THIRD option.  That'll trick him!  He wasn't going to submit before, but now he will!"

Look at it this way, the more prepared you are for a something, the most chances and options you have (and/or are available to you) as you undertake that task or challenge, right?  Let's say, basketball.  You got a big game tomorrow, but you don't get enough sleep.  You don't have as much energy.  This limits you physically, right?  Can't run as fast, can't jump as high, etc.  But if you practiced weeks prior and got enough rest, during the game itself, you will have endurance, speed, and since you practiced jump shots and layups, you HAVE THE OPTION to do either.

Now, does that make sense?

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 13 avril 2012 - 06:11 .

[balance5050]

ajm317 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

A higher EMS means the Reapers have more to fear because a Shepard that does everything in his/her power to try and stop them is more of a threat than s Shepard that slacked (in any way).

In short? The Reapers don't want to control someone they don't think is very much of a threat. They can defeat the galaxy without a Shepard Thrall commanding their forces, because the forces of the galaxy haven't been united as well against them, due to that type of Shepard's carelessness.

Think about how terrifying Shepard would be all...Saren-ified. The galactic community would lose ALL hope.

Why am I seeing the dream at all then?  Why trot out the Starchild just to drop the whole charade at the end and let Shepard bleed out?  Instead of only showing the me the option I really want, shouldn't things just go black after the laser if IT is true?

Because Shepard already gathered the army he needed to destroy a bunch of reapers. They NEED him alive to sabotage the resistance. The Shepard alive, destroy option is the technical best because it requires the most EMS, and let's you see the hidden "fourth option" of "waking up"

Modifié par balance5050, 13 avril 2012 - 06:10 .

[CaliGuy033]

Master Che wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

A higher EMS means the Reapers have more to fear because a Shepard that does everything in his/her power to try and stop them is more of a threat than s Shepard that slacked (in any way).

I hope you realize that this explanation makes very, very little sense.  "We have more to fear, so......now we'll give him a THIRD option.  That'll trick him!  He wasn't going to submit before, but now he will!"

Could just be a game mechnic that has nothing to do with it. 

OR, by amassing enough war assets you've shown that you're worthy of this option?

Well, in fairness to you generally (and setting aside IT), I definitely think the appearance of the green option is just a gameplay mechanic.  

[NM_Che56]

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Master Che wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Bioware rep quote follows:

Mike Gamble: The Indoctrination Theory illustrates again how committed the fanbase is. (Laughter from Audience). We don't want to comment either way on it, here is why. We don't want to be prescriptive on how people interpret the ending, especially with the Extended Cut, DLC coming out, we don't want to be prescriptive with how people think things ended, we want the content to speak for itself. And we'll let it do so.

Much like the ending itself he tries to be noncommittal. Their plan wasn't IT theory. Their plan was to add ambiguity to the ending of the game to spawn discussion. Basically they wanted to give us another annoying Battlestar Galactica ending. Is Starbuck and angel or isnt she? Seriously who the f*** cares. They jumped the shark.

interesting theory.

You post why ambiguity theory doesn't work and then someone who supports ambiguity theory can try to address that concern.

...

The Indoctrination Theory illustrates again how committed the fanbase is. (Laughter from Audience). We don't want to comment either way on it, here is why. We don't want to be prescriptive on how people interpret the ending, especially with the Extended Cut, DLC coming out, we don't want to be prescriptive with how people think things ended, we want the content to speak for itself. And we'll let it do so.

To me, this could me that we're on to something but they don't want to address it so no one has a preconceived notion as to what we'll learn in the DLC.  Kinda like someone said before: It would be like knowing Vader was Luke's father before Empire Strikes Back or Bruce was a ghost in 6th Sense.

[ajm317]

A far less problematic explanation for why you get more options at higher EMS is that the Starchild is real, the Crucible actually gets used, and all those Crucible related war assets (sensor arrays, power supplies, fuel, works, scientists etc.) make the Crucible "better", thus giving the Starchild more options.

[OdanUrr]

tetsutsuru wrote...

Now, does that make sense?

Let me put it this way, how does it make sense that, instead of gathering war assets to fight a war, you gather war assets to fight indoctrination?

[balance5050]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

Higher EMS = bigger army to kill reaper.

The higher the EMS, the more the reapers need to indoctrinate shepard to have a chance at survival. You need the HIGHEST EMS for the Shep alive scene.

This doesn't answer my question.  How does needing to indoctrinate him "more" equate to giving him a third choice?  It doesn't make one bit of sense.

Say I want you to take the blue pill, but the "correct" choice (which will harm me) is the red pill.  And I realize that you are very very powerful and I am in a whole mess of trouble if you take the red pill.  The way I trick you isn't to introduce a third option which is actually the same as the blue pill.  The way to trick you is to make the blue pill seem even more appealing--"No, you REALLY need to pick this one. Here's why."

The third option (synthesis) is indoctrination, the BEST option is waking up;)

[NM_Che56]

ajm317 wrote...

A far less problematic explanation for why you get more options at higher EMS is that the Starchild is real, the Crucible actually gets used, and all those Crucible related war assets (sensor arrays, power supplies, fuel, works, scientists etc.) make the Crucible "better", thus giving the Starchild more options.

So why not just make it based off of Crucible assets? What does a Volus Dreadnought have to do with this?  Or worse...DIANA ALLERS *SCREECH*? 

Devil's advocate.

[rachellouise]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...

I have only one problem with indoctrination theory. It's not in the game. It's something that we came up with to explain what is in the game. I call shenanagins, because the game is supposed to explain the ending. It's a coping mechanism for a ***** ending, in my opinion.

I respectfully disagree. Indoctrination has ALWAYS been a big part of the Mass Effect universe, so to call it something "we came up with" is utterly false. BioWare came up with it. It's been part of the Mass Effect lore since the very beginning when we found out Saren Arterius was an indoctrinated servant of Sovereign, and the affects were expanded on from there.

Then in Mass Effect 2, we see the Arrival DLC where Shepard gets knocked out by a Reaper artifact and proceeds to spend two days near it while he's unconcious.

Mass Effect 3 shows a LOT of descriptive signs of the indoctrination process. From the "oily shadows" described by the Rachni Queen in Mass Effect 1, to the whispers in Shepard's dreams, possible hallucinations, and after Thessia, Shepard is seen to be getting more and more easily irritated. In my mind, all the signs of an indoctrination or at least an indoctrination attempt are all there. The lore shows it's perfectly possible. What's to stop Shepard from being immune to the affects? Shepard isn't super human, regardless whether or not we wish to believe that.

If people seriously think indoctrination on the game's HERO would be a bad thing, then I just don't understand why. It would be one hell of a ballsy move.

I don't think it would be a bad thing, I just don't beleive she is.