1057 réponses à ce sujet

[ajm317]

balance5050 wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

A higher EMS means the Reapers have more to fear because a Shepard that does everything in his/her power to try and stop them is more of a threat than s Shepard that slacked (in any way).

In short? The Reapers don't want to control someone they don't think is very much of a threat. They can defeat the galaxy without a Shepard Thrall commanding their forces, because the forces of the galaxy haven't been united as well against them, due to that type of Shepard's carelessness.

Think about how terrifying Shepard would be all...Saren-ified. The galactic community would lose ALL hope.

Why am I seeing the dream at all then?  Why trot out the Starchild just to drop the whole charade at the end and let Shepard bleed out?  Instead of only showing the me the option I really want, shouldn't things just go black after the laser if IT is true?

Because Shepard already gathered the army he needed to destroy a bunch of reapers. They NEED him alive to sabotage the resistance. The Shepard alive, destroy option is the technical best because it requires the most EMS, and let's you see the hidden "fourth option" of "waking up"

No, that doesn't answer my question, it's just a restating of Gallifreya's original argument.

I understand that allegedly at low EMS the Reapers don't "need" you.

My question is if that's the case why do we see the Starchild at all?  Why are they doing 95% of the work to trick Shepard and then just not bothering to finish it?  Why doesn't Shepard just see a light at the end of a tunnel like most people see in near death scenarios and then bleed out like a normal, unimportant, person would?

According to IT the whole thing is a Reaper induced indoctrination attempt right?  So if they're not bothering to indoctrinate you, why are they bothering to indoctrinate you?

Modifié par ajm317, 13 avril 2012 - 06:16 .

[jijeebo]

Master Che wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

A far less problematic explanation for why you get more options at higher EMS is that the Starchild is real, the Crucible actually gets used, and all those Crucible related war assets (sensor arrays, power supplies, fuel, works, scientists etc.) make the Crucible "better", thus giving the Starchild more options.

So why not just make it based off of Crucible assets? What does a Volus Dreadnought have to do with this?  Or worse...DIANA ALLERS *SCREECH*? 

Devil's advocate.

They couldn't be bothered/didn't have time to didivde assets into different categories?

[balance5050]

OdanUrr wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Now, does that make sense?

Let me put it this way, how does it make sense that, instead of gathering war assets to fight a war, you gather war assets to fight indoctrination?

Just like gathering all teamates and their loyalty means victory in ME2, gathering EMS means victory in ME3. Basically the more EMS you have the more the kid panders to you to think like Saren or or TIM, look it up, the kids dalogue even changes and is nicer to you with high EMS

EXAMPLE
low EMS ; "What are you doing here?"
high EMS ; "Wake Up."

[PhotonMaze]

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Main issue with IT...you have less choice than the crappy ending that Bioware actually wrote.

Lets break down the ending choices.

With "control" or "synthesis" you are indoctrinated. You dont wake up. Reapers win. Everyone dies. Everything you did up till that point was completely meaningless. Game over.

You pick "destroy" and you escape indoctrination but you die (because of low war assets). Nothing is resolved. Reapers win. Everyone dies. Everything you did up till that point was completely meaningless. Game over.

You pick destroy and escape being indoctrinated and wake up (because you have enough war assets). But that means you didn't actually witness the end of the game...you still have to defeat the Reapers. So this would also mean they gave us a totally unfinished game. This is beyond lame.

So basically the only way to win and the only choices that mattered were the few that gave you the "perfect" destroy ending. Having only one choice basically means you have no choice.

I don't think that the 'control' and 'synthesis' options will merely amount to Shepard dieing. He will just have to fight indoctrination further in the 'Extended Cut' DLC or ME4. (Or something like that)

[CaliGuy033]

balance5050 wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Why does having a high EMS score give you a third option that apparently, according to IT, is just another "wrong" choice where you've submitted to indoctrination (just like the Control option)?

More importantly, why is a third choice even necessary?

Higher EMS = bigger army to kill reaper.

The higher the EMS, the more the reapers need to indoctrinate shepard to have a chance at survival. You need the HIGHEST EMS for the Shep alive scene.

This doesn't answer my question.  How does needing to indoctrinate him "more" equate to giving him a third choice?  It doesn't make one bit of sense.

Say I want you to take the blue pill, but the "correct" choice (which will harm me) is the red pill.  And I realize that you are very very powerful and I am in a whole mess of trouble if you take the red pill.  The way I trick you isn't to introduce a third option which is actually the same as the blue pill.  The way to trick you is to make the blue pill seem even more appealing--"No, you REALLY need to pick this one. Here's why."

The third option (synthesis) is indoctrination, the BEST option is waking up;)

But you're still not answering my question.  Synthesis is indoctrination.  Okay, I got you.  Then what is Control?  How is it different for the Reapers purposes?  And if it's not different, what is the point of having it?  Why do the Reapers suddenly give you an additional choice that indoctrinates you, instead of just buffering the choice you already have (Control) to make it seem even sweeter?

Modifié par CaliGuy033, 13 avril 2012 - 06:19 .

[ajm317]

Master Che wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

A far less problematic explanation for why you get more options at higher EMS is that the Starchild is real, the Crucible actually gets used, and all those Crucible related war assets (sensor arrays, power supplies, fuel, works, scientists etc.) make the Crucible "better", thus giving the Starchild more options.

So why not just make it based off of Crucible assets? What does a Volus Dreadnought have to do with this?  Or worse...DIANA ALLERS *SCREECH*? 

Devil's advocate.

Well in my opinion it's because Bioware was lazy.  They assumed that if you had a high EMS you would have a lot of Crucible assets.  In general this is probably true.

It could also be justified by arguing that if you don't have a Volus Dreadnought the Crucible takes some amount of battle damage before docking.

[rachellouise]

balance5050 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Now, does that make sense?

Let me put it this way, how does it make sense that, instead of gathering war assets to fight a war, you gather war assets to fight indoctrination?

Just like gathering all teamates and their loyalty means victory in ME2, gathering EMS means victory in ME3. Basically the more EMS you have the more the kid panders to you to think like Saren or or TIM, look it up, the kids dalogue even changes and is nicer to you with high EMS

EXAMPLE
low EMS ; "What are you doing here?"
high EMS ; "Wake Up."

That is a contradiction..

"
Just like gathering all teamates and their loyalty means victory in ME2, gathering EMS means victory in ME3.  "

however you're saying the choices unlocked with higher EMS are failure..

[OdanUrr]

balance5050 wrote...

Just like gathering all teamates and their loyalty means victory in ME2, gathering EMS means victory in ME3. Basically the more EMS you have the more the kid panders to you to think like Saren or or TIM, look it up, the kids dalogue even changes and is nicer to you with high EMS

EXAMPLE
low EMS ; "What are you doing here?"
high EMS ; "Wake Up."

Okay, but ME2 hits you over the head with the idea of the suicide mission and how you need to gain the loyalty of your companions if you are to succeed. ME3 tells you that you need a strong fleet to defend the Crucible during the last battle, nothing else.

[NM_Che56]

ajm317 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

A far less problematic explanation for why you get more options at higher EMS is that the Starchild is real, the Crucible actually gets used, and all those Crucible related war assets (sensor arrays, power supplies, fuel, works, scientists etc.) make the Crucible "better", thus giving the Starchild more options.

So why not just make it based off of Crucible assets? What does a Volus Dreadnought have to do with this?  Or worse...DIANA ALLERS *SCREECH*? 

Devil's advocate.

It could also be justified by arguing that if you don't have a Volus Dreadnought the Crucible takes some amount of battle damage before docking.

sounds reasonable.

[balance5050]

rachellouise wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Now, does that make sense?

Let me put it this way, how does it make sense that, instead of gathering war assets to fight a war, you gather war assets to fight indoctrination?

Just like gathering all teamates and their loyalty means victory in ME2, gathering EMS means victory in ME3. Basically the more EMS you have the more the kid panders to you to think like Saren or or TIM, look it up, the kids dalogue even changes and is nicer to you with high EMS

EXAMPLE
low EMS ; "What are you doing here?"
high EMS ; "Wake Up."

That is a contradiction..

"
Just like gathering all teamates and their loyalty means victory in ME2, gathering EMS means victory in ME3.  "

however you're saying the choices unlocked with higher EMS are failure..

Not a failure, just another choice that will effect the end in the EC, you LI will snap you out of it or something, Or the reaper's win with you as Harbingers right hand man or sometihng.

[tetsutsuru]

OdanUrr wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

Now, does that make sense?

Let me put it this way, how does it make sense that, instead of gathering war assets to fight a war, you gather war assets to fight indoctrination?

Simple.  You're overall more prepared.  This denotes being, stronger, more confident, more mentally prepared, morally unwaveing, more driven, etc., than you would be if you weren't prepared.

As far as all this relating to the Indoctrination Theory, being prepared gives you a much better fighting chance to resist it.

Remember, Jedi mind tricks don't work on everyone.  Only on weak-minded ones.

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 13 avril 2012 - 06:26 .

[estebanus]

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

[natalZ]

What I think, is that the indoctrination theory was rather to be implemented. But perhaps they no more time and have release the game as soon as possible leaving things looser than it should. IT does not disprove the end, just let it open, and is even possible to implement those loose pieces shown at the end.

However, if IT has not been planned (which I doubt very much due to the large number of coincidences in the game) it should be used by Bioware.

Perhaps the negative repercussions of the end was so huge (huge demand lol) that they are now having to run with something that was perhaps intended as a DLC only for six months from now.

I imagine the logic of IT is that Shepard became a symbol not for the human race, but to the whole universe. If reapers achiev to control Shepard and this becomes visible to all other beings in the universe, many will simply drop the gun and accept that they must die. "I will fight for what reason? If even HE could not resist, why should I try?"

Modifié par natalZ, 13 avril 2012 - 06:31 .

[OdanUrr]

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

Yeah... I don't read the books, or the comics, so that doesn't really mean much to me. Or are we accepting Deception as canon too?

[estebanus]

Or how about when the crucible docks on the citadel? You literally see 3 reapers flying around in the background utterly IGNORING it! Why would they ignore a device that could possibly destroy them?

[ajm317]

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In both synthesis and control something happens to change Shepard as a matter of necessity.  I don't remember the details exactly, but in synthesis you get disintegrated and used as some sort of fuel to merge lifeforms and synthetics and in control you basically become a Reaper.

Given that both scenarios revolve around Shepard becoming (part) synthetic it's not too surprising they would reuse a preexisting part synthetic visual effect.

In destroy nothing happens to change Shepard.  He/she just gets caught in an explosion and probably dies when his/her implants shut off (or doesn't at high EMS).

Modifié par ajm317, 13 avril 2012 - 06:30 .

[estebanus]

OdanUrr wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

Yeah... I don't read the books, or the comics, so that doesn't really mean much to me. Or are we accepting Deception as canon too?

unlike evolution, Deception was confirmed by Bioware as not being canon.

Now answer my question if you can.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

STEEEEVE wrote...

I don't like IT because
1.) It's unfalsifiable
2.) The devs have made numerous statements that they want the ending to stand on its own, not be a metaphor

Oh yeah, like that ending scene on the garden world with Adam and E-- uh, I mean Joker and EDI? Totally not symbolic.

[estebanus]

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In both synthesis and control something happens to Shepard as a matter of necessity.  I don't remember the details exactly, but in synthesis you get disintegrated and used as some sort of fuel to merge lifeforms and synthetics and in control you basically become a Reaper.

Given that both scenarios revolve around Shepard becoming (part) synthetic it's not too surprising they would reuse a preexisting part synthetic visual effect.

In destroy nothing happens to Shepard.  He/she just gets caught in an explosion and probably dies when his/her implants shut off (or don't at high EMS).

But why would that result in indoctrinated eyes? Eyes, that both Saren and TIM had after coming in contact with reaper tech?
Hell, you even see husks with these kinds of eyes!

[jijeebo]

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

You don't see Sheps eyes in the destroy ending... He gets engulfed in fire. There's no reason to assume that his eyes DON'T change once the crucible has activated.

Plus, theres no reason that the crucible couldn't do to Shep what said artifact did to TIM, only difference is that Shep died like 3 seconds later. 

[Fisto The Sexbot]

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In both synthesis and control something happens to change Shepard as a matter of necessity.  I don't remember the details exactly, but in synthesis you get disintegrated and used as some sort of fuel to merge lifeforms and synthetics and in control you basically become a Reaper.

Given that both scenarios revolve around Shepard becoming (part) synthetic it's not too surprising they would reuse a preexisting part synthetic visual effect.

In destroy nothing happens to change Shepard.  He/she just gets caught in an explosion and probably dies when his/her implants shut off (or doesn't at high EMS).

Merizan says that Shepard survives with high enough EMS in the destroy ending. That could imply that the destroy ending will maybe be the only ending in which Shepard actually 'survives'.

[ajm317]

estebanus wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In both synthesis and control something happens to Shepard as a matter of necessity.  I don't remember the details exactly, but in synthesis you get disintegrated and used as some sort of fuel to merge lifeforms and synthetics and in control you basically become a Reaper.

Given that both scenarios revolve around Shepard becoming (part) synthetic it's not too surprising they would reuse a preexisting part synthetic visual effect.

In destroy nothing happens to Shepard.  He/she just gets caught in an explosion and probably dies when his/her implants shut off (or don't at high EMS).

But why would that result in indoctrinated eyes? Eyes, that both Saren and TIM had after coming in contact with reaper tech?
Hell, you even see husks with these kinds of eyes!

Because the Starchild is the boss of the Reapers and presumably uses Reaper tech.

[estebanus]

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

You don't see Sheps eyes in the destroy ending... He gets engulfed in fire. There's no reason to assume that his eyes DON'T change once the crucible has activated.

Plus, theres no reason that the crucible couldn't do to Shep what said artifact did to TIM, only difference is that Shep died like 3 seconds later. 

In control and Synthesis, Shepard's eyes are indoctrinated before the crucible even activates. It happens during the process of activation.

[balance5050]

estebanus wrote...

Or how about when the crucible docks on the citadel? You literally see 3 reapers flying around in the background utterly IGNORING it! Why would they ignore a device that could possibly destroy them?

Cause the reapers are going to try and use it. TIM told them the plan. Star kid is just a thing putting ideas into your head and can't really change much. So if the kid isn't really the catalyst, guess who is!! Our favorite protagonist!! Shepard.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

You don't see Sheps eyes in the destroy ending... He gets engulfed in fire. There's no reason to assume that his eyes DON'T change once the crucible has activated.

Plus, theres no reason that the crucible couldn't do to Shep what said artifact did to TIM, only difference is that Shep died like 3 seconds later. 

Even if you saw Shepard's eyes turn in the destroy ending, which you don't, how would that disprove the IT? Those are obviously the eyes of creatures who at one point were in contact with Reaper tech.