1057 réponses à ce sujet

[Fisto The Sexbot]

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In both synthesis and control something happens to Shepard as a matter of necessity.  I don't remember the details exactly, but in synthesis you get disintegrated and used as some sort of fuel to merge lifeforms and synthetics and in control you basically become a Reaper.

Given that both scenarios revolve around Shepard becoming (part) synthetic it's not too surprising they would reuse a preexisting part synthetic visual effect.

In destroy nothing happens to Shepard.  He/she just gets caught in an explosion and probably dies when his/her implants shut off (or don't at high EMS).

But why would that result in indoctrinated eyes? Eyes, that both Saren and TIM had after coming in contact with reaper tech?
Hell, you even see husks with these kinds of eyes!

Because the Starchild is the boss of the Reapers and presumably uses Reaper tech.

Which would only point to indoctrination again.

[OdanUrr]

estebanus wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

Yeah... I don't read the books, or the comics, so that doesn't really mean much to me. Or are we accepting Deception as canon too?

unlike evolution, Deception was confirmed by Bioware as not being canon.

Now answer my question if you can.

Asset recycling.

[SubAstris]

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In destroy, he doesn't come into contact with the Reapers per se, he just destroys them., while in control and synthesis you are actively touching them, coming into contact with Reaper tech that alters you and potentially everyone in the galaxy. Hence, why Shephard's eyes change for those choices, nothing to do with indoctrination.

[jijeebo]

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

You don't see Sheps eyes in the destroy ending... He gets engulfed in fire. There's no reason to assume that his eyes DON'T change once the crucible has activated.

Plus, theres no reason that the crucible couldn't do to Shep what said artifact did to TIM, only difference is that Shep died like 3 seconds later. 

In control and Synthesis, Shepard's eyes are indoctrinated before the crucible even activates. It happens during the process of activation.

In those endings he comes in direct contact with the crucible during activation, but he doesn't with destroy.

[estebanus]

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In both synthesis and control something happens to Shepard as a matter of necessity.  I don't remember the details exactly, but in synthesis you get disintegrated and used as some sort of fuel to merge lifeforms and synthetics and in control you basically become a Reaper.

Given that both scenarios revolve around Shepard becoming (part) synthetic it's not too surprising they would reuse a preexisting part synthetic visual effect.

In destroy nothing happens to Shepard.  He/she just gets caught in an explosion and probably dies when his/her implants shut off (or don't at high EMS).

But why would that result in indoctrinated eyes? Eyes, that both Saren and TIM had after coming in contact with reaper tech?
Hell, you even see husks with these kinds of eyes!

Because the Starchild is the boss of the Reapers and presumably uses Reaper tech.

Aha.
But in synthesis, Shepard jumps into a beam that was NOT made by reapers, but by humans, asari, turians, etc.

And either way, that would still mean that you're indoctrinated in the end no matter what, since you get these eyes!

[ajm317]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Which would only point to indoctrination again.

Uh, no, it wouldn't.

The Starchild is, by his own admission, the creator of the Reapers.

You can certainly argue that the eyes are consistent with IT, but they don't prove it. 

[estebanus]

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

You don't see Sheps eyes in the destroy ending... He gets engulfed in fire. There's no reason to assume that his eyes DON'T change once the crucible has activated.

Plus, theres no reason that the crucible couldn't do to Shep what said artifact did to TIM, only difference is that Shep died like 3 seconds later. 

In control and Synthesis, Shepard's eyes are indoctrinated before the crucible even activates. It happens during the process of activation.

In those endings he comes in direct contact with the crucible during activation, but he doesn't with destroy.

Exactly!

Shepard refuses to use reaper tech in destroy, resulting in not being indoctrinated in the end!

[estebanus]

OdanUrr wrote...

estebanus wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

Yeah... I don't read the books, or the comics, so that doesn't really mean much to me. Or are we accepting Deception as canon too?

unlike evolution, Deception was confirmed by Bioware as not being canon.

Now answer my question if you can.

Asset recycling.

are you serious?

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In destroy, he doesn't come into contact with the Reapers per se, he just destroys them., while in control and synthesis you are actively touching them, coming into contact with Reaper tech that alters you and potentially everyone in the galaxy. Hence, why Shephard's eyes change for those choices, nothing to do with indoctrination.

Control, why would tech be goign into Shepard if the Reapers were"allowing" Shep to control them?

Synthesis, The kid said "Everything you are will be absorbed then sent out," shouldn't his body just desintegrate instead of being infused with reaper tech?

EDIT, technically the beam he jumps into is coming from the crucible which isn't reaper tech, but he still gets the indoc eyes. They are using symbolism and metephors to try and tell you guys something.

Modifié par balance5050, 13 avril 2012 - 06:44 .

[ajm317]

estebanus wrote...

Aha.
But in synthesis, Shepard jumps into a beam that was NOT made by reapers, but by humans, asari, turians, etc.

There is no evidence the beam was made by humans, asari etc.  It's very clear the Starchild is running the whole show.  The Crucible is implied to be little more than a battery, but even if it's not it was probably originally designed by Starchild.  Synthesis was clearly his idea.  Hackett and co. don't even know what the Crucible does, they certainly didn't intentionally design a synthesis beam.

estebanus wrote...

And either way, that would still mean that you're indoctrinated in the end no matter what, since you get these eyes!

Just because we've seen some characters with those eyes who were indoctrinated doesn't mean Shepard is indoctrinated just because he has those eyes.  Under a literal interpretation of the ending the Starchild is treating Shepard as some kind of colleague, so it's certainly possible that the eyes are simply evidence of organic/synthetic integration and not Reaper control.

Modifié par ajm317, 13 avril 2012 - 06:43 .

[estebanus]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In destroy, he doesn't come into contact with the Reapers per se, he just destroys them., while in control and synthesis you are actively touching them, coming into contact with Reaper tech that alters you and potentially everyone in the galaxy. Hence, why Shephard's eyes change for those choices, nothing to do with indoctrination.

Control, why would tech be goign into Shepard if the Reapers were"allowing" Shep to control them?

Synthesis, The kid said "Everything you are will be absorbed then sent out," shouldn't his body just desintegrate instead of being infused with reaper tech?

My point exactly.

Modifié par estebanus, 13 avril 2012 - 06:42 .

[estebanus]

ajm317 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Aha.
But in synthesis, Shepard jumps into a beam that was NOT made by reapers, but by humans, asari, turians, etc.

There is no evidence the beam was made by humans, asari etc.  It's very clear the Starchild is running the whole show.  The Crucible is implied to be little more than a battery, but even if it's not it was probably originally designed by Starchild.  Synthesis was clearly his idea.  Hackett and co. don't even know what the Crucible does, they certainly didn't intentionally design a synthesis beam.

estebanus wrote...

And either way, that would still mean that you're indoctrinated in the end no matter what, since you get these eyes!

Just because we've seen some characters with those eyes who were indoctrinated doesn't mean Shepard is indoctrinated just because he has those eyes.  Under a literal interpretation of the ending the Starchild is treating Shepard as some kind of colleague, so it's certainly possible that the eyes are simply evidence of organic/synthetic integration and not Reaper control.

Your'e saying that the crucible was made by starchild. The controller of the reapers.

So by that logic, my point still stands, since Shep comes into direct contact with the beam, which, accoeding to your own statement, is reaper tech!

[estebanus]

estebanus wrote...

Or how about when the crucible docks on the citadel? You literally see 3 reapers flying around in the background utterly IGNORING it! Why would they ignore a device that could possibly destroy them?

bump.

[jijeebo]

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

You don't see Sheps eyes in the destroy ending... He gets engulfed in fire. There's no reason to assume that his eyes DON'T change once the crucible has activated.

Plus, theres no reason that the crucible couldn't do to Shep what said artifact did to TIM, only difference is that Shep died like 3 seconds later. 

In control and Synthesis, Shepard's eyes are indoctrinated before the crucible even activates. It happens during the process of activation.

In those endings he comes in direct contact with the crucible during activation, but he doesn't with destroy.

Exactly!

Shepard refuses to use reaper tech in destroy, resulting in not being indoctrinated in the end!

He doesn't refuse to use it.

If he had refused to use it he would have turned around and gone back down the lift.

He just chose to use it differently.

[ajm317]

estebanus wrote...

Your'e saying that the crucible was made by starchild. The controller of the reapers.

So by that logic, my point still stands, since Shep comes into direct contact with the beam, which, accoeding to your own statement, is reaper tech!

I guess I don't understand what your point is.  Do you have one?

Modifié par ajm317, 13 avril 2012 - 06:46 .

[Kath]

 The reason I don't like the IT is because gameplay wise, it shows extremely poor design. I mentioned this in another thread, but challenges in games are either strategy based, or skill based. To "beat" the indoctrination at the end of the game, the player would need to be aware of how to use their strategy or skill to do so. There is no obvious indication that you are being indoctrinated in the game, so if IT is true, the player is unable to use strategy or skill to beat it, which leads to bad linear gaming. 

Now, people have mention that with Morinth it is capable to "lose" the game too, but Morinth is actually a good example of the player being aware of Shepard being controlled. When you are doing Samara's loyalty mission, Samara tells you that Morinth can influence you, and this happens you don't have enough paragon or renegade points. You as a player know what's going on, but your Shepard can't "break" Morinth's control until Samara shows up. This is good gameplay you can use strategy (by getting enough paragon or renegade points) to break Morinth's control. And if you don't break free from her control, you still see what happens afterwards with Samara showing up. 

Having there only be one "right" choice at the end of the game without proper set up for player strategy would simply be terrible level design. It's like those underground sections in the old Mario games where any of the three pipes could send you to another world... except unbeknownst to you two of the pipes automatically kill you, and only one of them works. :/

[balance5050]

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

You don't see Sheps eyes in the destroy ending... He gets engulfed in fire. There's no reason to assume that his eyes DON'T change once the crucible has activated.

Plus, theres no reason that the crucible couldn't do to Shep what said artifact did to TIM, only difference is that Shep died like 3 seconds later. 

In control and Synthesis, Shepard's eyes are indoctrinated before the crucible even activates. It happens during the process of activation.

In those endings he comes in direct contact with the crucible during activation, but he doesn't with destroy.

Exactly!

Shepard refuses to use reaper tech in destroy, resulting in not being indoctrinated in the end!

He doesn't refuse to use it.

If he had refused to use it he would have turned around and gone back down the lift.

He just chose to use it differently.

So he chose to use it by shooting at it?

[jijeebo]

estebanus wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Or how about when the crucible docks on the citadel? You literally see 3 reapers flying around in the background utterly IGNORING it! Why would they ignore a device that could possibly destroy them?

bump.

Plot convenience.

Same reason they just happen to stumble upon the crucible plans 20 minutes after the reapers arrive.

[jijeebo]

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

You don't see Sheps eyes in the destroy ending... He gets engulfed in fire. There's no reason to assume that his eyes DON'T change once the crucible has activated.

Plus, theres no reason that the crucible couldn't do to Shep what said artifact did to TIM, only difference is that Shep died like 3 seconds later. 

In control and Synthesis, Shepard's eyes are indoctrinated before the crucible even activates. It happens during the process of activation.

In those endings he comes in direct contact with the crucible during activation, but he doesn't with destroy.

Exactly!

Shepard refuses to use reaper tech in destroy, resulting in not being indoctrinated in the end!

He doesn't refuse to use it.

If he had refused to use it he would have turned around and gone back down the lift.

He just chose to use it differently.

So he chose to use it by shooting at it?

It still activates doesn't it?

[OdanUrr]

estebanus wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

estebanus wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

Yeah... I don't read the books, or the comics, so that doesn't really mean much to me. Or are we accepting Deception as canon too?

unlike evolution, Deception was confirmed by Bioware as not being canon.

Now answer my question if you can.

Asset recycling.

are you serious?

Can you conclusively disprove this? Nope.

I gave you A answer. Doesn't mean it's THE answer.

[balance5050]

Sorry, I.T. is a better story then the endings at face value, cliffhanger and all...

[estebanus]

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

You don't see Sheps eyes in the destroy ending... He gets engulfed in fire. There's no reason to assume that his eyes DON'T change once the crucible has activated.

Plus, theres no reason that the crucible couldn't do to Shep what said artifact did to TIM, only difference is that Shep died like 3 seconds later. 

In control and Synthesis, Shepard's eyes are indoctrinated before the crucible even activates. It happens during the process of activation.

In those endings he comes in direct contact with the crucible during activation, but he doesn't with destroy.

Exactly!

Shepard refuses to use reaper tech in destroy, resulting in not being indoctrinated in the end!

He doesn't refuse to use it.

If he had refused to use it he would have turned around and gone back down the lift.

He just chose to use it differently.

So he chose to use it by shooting at it?

Doesn't by destroying it mean that s/he doesn't use it?

[estebanus]

OdanUrr wrote...

estebanus wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

estebanus wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

Yeah... I don't read the books, or the comics, so that doesn't really mean much to me. Or are we accepting Deception as canon too?

unlike evolution, Deception was confirmed by Bioware as not being canon.

Now answer my question if you can.

Asset recycling.

are you serious?

Can you conclusively disprove this? Nope.

I gave you A answer. Doesn't mean it's THE answer.

Oh, I meant no disrespect, it just seems like a pretty lame argument IMO.

[ajm317]

balance5050 wrote...

Sorry, I.T. is a better story then the endings at face value, cliffhanger and all...

That may be true, but it doesn't necessarily imply IT was what the developers intended.

I think a far more likely interpretation is just that Bioware wrote a bad ending.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, see if you can refute this:

In both the synthesis and control endings, Shepard gets TIM's eyey, while s/he keeps his/her own eyes in destroy. And don't come with "it's Shepard's cybernetic implants", because that was already refuted in Mass Effect: evolution, where Jack Harper/TIM gets the same eyes after coming in contact with a reaper artifact.

In destroy, he doesn't come into contact with the Reapers per se, he just destroys them., while in control and synthesis you are actively touching them, coming into contact with Reaper tech that alters you and potentially everyone in the galaxy. Hence, why Shephard's eyes change for those choices, nothing to do with indoctrination.

Control, why would tech be goign into Shepard if the Reapers were"allowing" Shep to control them?

Synthesis, The kid said "Everything you are will be absorbed then sent out," shouldn't his body just desintegrate instead of being infused with reaper tech?

EDIT, technically the beam he jumps into is coming from the crucible which isn't reaper tech, but he still gets the indoc eyes. They are using symbolism and metephors to try and tell you guys something.

Because Shephard is in contact with that tech, whether he is controlling them is frankly irrelevant.

From what I can see from the Synthesis ending, his body does begin to disintergrate to a certain extent as he is fused, like every other organic, with synthetic technology.

I'm not so sure the Crucible is Reaper tech or not. Although it doesn't state that it is, the fact that every cycle the Reapers fail to realise organics are making it seems odd and very surprising. It is possible, although I have little evidence to go on, that the Catalyst (or creators of the Catalyst) created the Crucible with the hope that one day organics might be able to build it. As controller of the Reapers, the Catalyst made sure that the Reapers never knew about it. Just a thought, unlikely, but would explain some bits quite well.

As for the eyes, there is an assumption that that means indoctrination, instead of Reaper tech, which is unfounded. Not all Reaper items do indoctrinate for example