787 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

Well, I have to say, I look forward to hearing some of the other ideas that are rattling around in the Dev team's twisted collective minds.

Say...for cross-class combos, for example.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 14 avril 2012 - 12:00 .

[eroeru]

The armor/customization ideas look awesome. Also, the art-style for the models is great, if not a bit too WoW-ish in body-size and composure (they look a bit too short for a video game - even if people were actually as short in medieval times).

But about the PAX interviews - the biggie for players as myself is that why are you so intent on patenting the "Bioware" dialogue-wheel? It's like only in Mass Effect - and many of whom I know don't find ME even that interesting (by the way, it caught an eye that most of the DA team wore ME hoodies... and well, that's not the game to bring into DA, quite frankly - DA's more of a Baldur's Gate type series still, granted you want to keep the old fans into it). An ideal would be OPTIONS to disable the voice and the wheel. This is an important thing - it is simple to make the alternatives, and it costs quite little in comparison to other things, yet it most certainly feels important - people get associations with the wheel and moreso the voice - but very few want ME or DA ][ in their DA (be it the wheel or anything else, it hurts the eye, conceptually - there's nothing fresh there, only bad memories, and it reeks of "catering" to whole different series' and crowds) - and very few (of the people I know) actually want a fleshed-out character.

The experience of silent and voiced is vastly different, at the very least. As such, the toggle-like option can be an interesting addition.

And also, the most inspiring and truly complex thing behind Bioware games was indeed the viability of totally forming your own character, intentionality- and personality-wise.

Modifié par eroeru, 14 avril 2012 - 08:14 .

[Froody42]

Best of both worlds in my opinion.

[Hyrist]

I want to take a small moment here to compliment BioWare on the decission to share this development, and encourage more, much more.

Open communication during the early development process is going to be the best and only way to make sure directed feedback is received before production costs or deadlines become too much of a problem to change what would be glaring issues to the player base. I hope you guys continue along this path on many, many more issues than just cosmetic design of characters and armor updates.

If the rest of BioWare (all development teams) adapt and develop further on this approach.

Of course, I'm not expecting a script to be handed in front of us for approval, but the high concept discussion and perhaps polling of what we would like to see would really help BioWare cater to their audience while still maintaining the final say in scope.

[Estherra Drack]

"I then find a piece of plate armor, the “Sterling Breastplate”. Normal class restrictions apply, but in this case both followers are Warrior class and can wear this plate armor. "

Why have class restrictions on armor at all?

Modifié par Estherra Drack, 14 avril 2012 - 01:40 .

[FaeQueenCory]

This is.... Interesting.
I like this idea... but I admit that it will take a LOT of resources and time to make it work.
Not that that is a bad thing.... if anything, an indication to invest more in DA3 than what was in DA2... is only a good thing.

I look forward to this. It's a very nice way to do things. And the more and more I think about it, the more I like it.

[Uccio]

No class restrictions, seriously!

[Eudaemonium]

I like these suggestions, but like others I would much rather have armour be stat-restricted than class-restricted. It would just make more sense to me that way

In DA2, I would have liked the companion upgrades to have visually affected the characters' outfits. It was a pity they didn't, but then I think we all know that DA2's main problem was a severe lack of polish. This system seems good, but I'm not so sure about Mike's suggestion of having non-class armour take on a kind of 'generic' look when applied to other classes. It is a certain compromise, but I like a certain amount of visual customisation. Even in games like Dark Souls, I often dress my character in armour that looks good as opposed to armour that is good (albeit trying to strike some sort of balance).

I would firmly support non-robes for mages, though. There is a reason I bought Item Pack #1 and got the Champion's Armour as early as possible in Act 3. I think the low-level item pack mage armour is my favourite set in the game, and also allowed you to Roleplay as a mage hiding from society. It was a bit stupid when you're swanning around in a mage robe with a magic staff and everyone's like 'mages aren't normal people like us'.

Modifié par Eudaemonium, 14 avril 2012 - 02:09 .

[Amycus89]

 I still prefer the current direction of this, but just in case it turns out to be too hard to actually implement, I would like to suggest this alternative way:

A companions look might not change immediately depending on exactly what kind of items you just equipped, but instead on your overall armor rating.
If we use the seeker as an example:Say that we originally have a seeker companion with the initial armor rating 7.48She is then equipped with any random piece that rises her overall armor rating to anything between 10.00-19.99, which will then visually alter her outfit slightly, like adding a shoulderpad like below:

Then raising the overall armor rating further to anything between 20.00-29.00 will add a harnesk as well, and in the end when the seekers overall armor rating is high enough, she will look like this:



That way we will see a gradual change as we progress, and it won't be as in DA2 where everyone looked to be dressed just as poorly as in the start of the game.

If that isn't enough visual variation, you can instead just shrink the variables, so that any overall armor rating between 0-9.99 will show a gradual change from nothing to a full set of sterling armor, and once you pass 10.00 it will change to "the lowest version" of another armor set, and continue to progress from there.

And in this way there is no need to worry about going from class based to stat based gear.

Like I said, I still prefer the current suggestion better, but if that turns out to not be possible for whatever reason, I think this would be a good second option. But please avoid class restrictions like the plague.

Modifié par Amycus89, 14 avril 2012 - 02:33 .

[just_me]

Estherra Drack wrote...

Why have class restrictions on armor at all?

Why have classes at all, if there are barely any restrictions for them?

I like the idea... it provides full customization and still has visual diversity.
Armor morphed between party members anyway, doesn't hurt if everyone adds a unique touch to the already morphing armor...
But it also depends on how many armor sets are available per class. But I'd say one base look per follower 3-4 armor sets per class would be enough...
Oh and maybe one follower specific armor (like only your Grey Warden can wear the ancient Warden breastplate found in an long abandoned Warden outpost...)  would be cool...

[Thori]

I agree with Ukki. Beside every other thing that bothered me in DA2, class restrictions further destroyed my gameplay experience. It's not cool.

[axa89]

Mike Laidlaw wrote....

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, it's not something that should be taken for granted, I really appreciate it!

Okay, let me put this out here:

Suppose armor was purely stat dependant, not class. You need X strength to wear this mail, or what have you.
We make sure that works with the player, but if you go "out of class" on a follower, it looks "okay" but not as one-to-one as if you stuck with the intended class.

So: You take a bunch of strength with your mage, and you move plate onto your mage. His armor looks pretty "heavy" but doesn't look necessarily like plate. It still has all the stats that platemail has, though.

If you moved that armor onto a warrior, it would look closer to how it looks on your player. (Since you'd be back in the expected space for that character's class)
Better? Worse? I ask because something like this might very well be possible.

That would be... excellent!
When I first read the words "normal class restrictions apply" I was so disappointed: even DA2 didn't have armor restricted by class (except for robes)!
I really like where you're taking followers customization: months ago you talked about how we'll be able to actually use all of the followers' equipment slots; you also said that that would only change their stas, not appearance. Now, with this, I think you've reached a really good compromise, if not something more! Having said that, please consider implementing what you've written. Don't undermine good design decisions with restrictions that are artificial and ends in themselves.


And I'd love to see some of this:

CrustyBot wrote...
That'd be a massive improvement over what's being discussed, yes.

Of course, if you want to ramp it up a little more (according to my tastes), you'd remove Attribute restrictions on non-magical/special armors and simply have effectiveness scale according to stats. Then create different streams of armors that speak to various playstyles (Chainmail = Strong v Swords, Weak v Bows; Plate = Strong vs Swords, Strong v Bows, slower movement/attack speed).

And in an ideal world, you'd apply this philosophy to Weapons, too. Dual Wielding Warriors, Warrior Archers, Rogues with Swords, or even Staves (no magical effects).

Still, that's a pretty solid proposal.

Modifié par axa89, 14 avril 2012 - 02:36 .

[Thori]

This may be off topic but I think it's related enough for me not to make separate tread.

I thought about weapon visualization. Wouldn't it be cool to have a character in game like that Warden above, plus, add more weapons on him, sheated ofc. 

I was thinking about character wearing several weapons at the same time. Like in Mass Effect.  Something like Aragorn in LOTR.

Heres an example. ( i'll use warrior as he should be the master of all weapons)

Warrior carrying 2h Greatsword across his right shoulder and 1h longsword/axe/dagger/mace on his left shoulder. Than a shield hanging on his back on top of greatsword and longsword, so that warrior can pull it up whenever he desires. And another longsword/axe/dagger/mace on his left hip.

So when he fights he can pull out Greatsword with his right arm, he can go sword&shield with left arm reaching for shield and right arm going for the weapon on hip. He can go dual wield with left arm reaching for weapon on his left shoulder and right arm going for weapon on hip. 
Same thing would go for rogues and mages, with the weapons their class allows them to use.

So far I've seen this only in Witcher and it really looks cool AND real and practical. What do you think?

[Pasquale1234]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Okay, let me put this out here:

• Suppose armor was purely stat dependant, not class. You need X strength to wear this mail, or what have you.
• We make sure that works with the player, but if you go "out of class" on a follower, it looks "okay" but not as one-to-one as if you stuck with the intended class.
• So: You take a bunch of strength with your mage, and you move plate onto your mage. His armor looks pretty "heavy" but doesn't look necessarily like plate. It still has all the stats that platemail has, though.
• If you moved that armor onto a warrior, it would look closer to how it looks on your player. (Since you'd be back in the expected space for that character's class)

Better? Worse? I ask because something like this might very well be possible.

Much better in the sense that the armor restrictions would be stat-based instead of class-based.

The not-so-good is the fact that it still favors iconic, individuated, class-specific looks over player customization and coherence (in the sense of armor with a GW emblem on one follower changing to a Seeker emblem on a different follower or the same piece looking entirely different on a mage versus a warrior).

I understand that some players do not want all of their companions to appear to be dressed alike, but what of those who do? If a player wanted their party to look like a uniform team (ala the GW armors we saw in Act 2 of DA2), they would be SOL.

It also sounds to me like a huge amount of work, and in the end each companion would still look somewhat similar throughout the game regardless of which armor items are equipped on them.

What I have been suggesting as a compromise is to equip each companion with a unique outfit that would level up throughout the game, and allow players to customize that look with different colors and textures. This is the look that each companion would have when the PC first meets them, and will hopefully satisfy players who value the individuated iconic appearance.

Also allow players to fully customize all companions with any armor found in the game (as long as they meet the stat requirements), and provide more sets of armor in the game ala DAO. Given the ability to change colors and textures, I would be satisfied with 1-2 styles each of 3 armor weights (light, medium, massive), mage robes, and mage pants.

I really feel that a system such as I have described here would bring the best of both worlds.

TL;DR: Iconic appearance that levels up throughout the game plus complete customization.

[FaeQueenCory]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Okay, let me put this out here:

• Suppose armor was purely stat dependant, not class. You need X strength to wear this mail, or what have you.
• We make sure that works with the player, but if you go "out of class" on a follower, it looks "okay" but not as one-to-one as if you stuck with the intended class.
• So: You take a bunch of strength with your mage, and you move plate onto your mage. His armor looks pretty "heavy" but doesn't look necessarily like plate. It still has all the stats that platemail has, though.
• If you moved that armor onto a warrior, it would look closer to how it looks on your player. (Since you'd be back in the expected space for that character's class)

Better? Worse? I ask because something like this might very well be possible.

That would actually be PERFECT!
I DESPISED the class restrictions in DA2.... it was too much agency removed along with removal of the companions' armor. And it made SO much armor absolutely worthless because only Hawke can wear armor and he can only wear one class of armor.

Modifié par FaeQueenCory, 14 avril 2012 - 03:00 .

[tomorrowstation]

First, major thanks to David Gaider for being so forthcoming, generous with his time, etc.The customization options being put into "The Next Dragon-themed Project" have got me very excited.

Related, sort of, is an issue I have had with all DA games, and that is the nature of the unique armor/weapon drops. In DA and DA2, unique armor set pieces seemed to be randomly placed in a chest here, in a creature's loot stash there, what have you. I always came from the school of thought that these items with legendary origins and bloodied pasts should have more integration into the world. Could we not have quests just to retrieve a legendary sword or chestplate? Maybe my party overhears some drunkards in a tavern telling the story of the lost Gauntlets of Whomever the Terrible and decide to set out in search of them.

Or another example, I find it a little silly when I defeat a mid-level boss and find a wicked cool sword in his loot drop, but then I ask myself, "why wasn't this guy using this wicked cool sword against me in the fight I just had with him? I never would have beaten him if he were wielding it.

I guess I am asking, David and Mike and all, are there plans for these unique items to have more integration in the game, to mean more?

Modifié par tomorrowstation, 14 avril 2012 - 03:03 .

[macrocarl]

If you guys can implement this in the next installment, that would be awesome. I really like the color changing thing too. And the different materials. It's a super smart way of giving the player the agency they want and having enough variation to make the game seem enormous (in what the world of DA can wear). And thank you for taking time to post.

[Iberius]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Okay, let me put this out here:

• Suppose armor was purely stat dependant, not class. You need X strength to wear this mail, or what have you.
• We make sure that works with the player, but if you go "out of class" on a follower, it looks "okay" but not as one-to-one as if you stuck with the intended class.
  
• So: You take a bunch of strength with your mage, and you move plate onto your mage. His armor looks pretty "heavy" but doesn't look necessarily like plate. It still has all the stats that platemail has, though.
  
• If you moved that armor onto a warrior, it would look closer to how it looks on your player. (Since you'd be back in the expected space for that character's class)

Better? Worse? I ask because something like this might very well be possible.

I like this. I think it is important that every class be stat dependent because if the armor is class dependent then it feels like you are pushing me down a certain path based on what character I play. I can live with plate armor not looking like plate armor on a mage as long as a mage can wear armor with plate stats.                                                                                                      

[Thori]

tomorrowstation wrote...

Related, sort of, is an issue I have had with all DA games, and that is the nature of the unique armor/weapon drops. In DA and DA2, unique armor set pieces seemed to be randomly placed in a chest here, in a creature's loot stash there, what have you. I always came from the school of thought that these items with legendary origins and bloodied pasts should have more integration into the world. Could we not have quests just to retrieve a legendary sword or chestplate? Maybe my party overhears some drunkards in a tavern telling the story of the lost Gauntlets of Whomever the Terrible and decide to set out in search of them.

Or another example, I find it a little silly when I defeat a mid-level boss and find a wicked cool sword in his loot drop, but then I ask myself, "why wasn't this guy using this wicked cool sword against me in the fight I just had with him? I never would have beaten him if he were wielding it.

I guess I am asking, David and Mike and all, are there plans for these unique items to have more integration in the game, to mean more?

Making a quest for retrieving Unique weapon or armor or ring/amulet would lessen that item's mystery. It's better when you find them in places you don't expect. BUT, I agree that they need to be better integrated. To see the boss wielding the weapon you will take from him or something like that.

[Cantina]

Sounds like a good idea, but I am also leery of this concept
at the same time too.  I apologize; I
have no idea if these issues were mentioned already, lot of responses so far.

In DA2 companions had different body types and along with
that they had armor sets that were, well glued on the character. I see for DA3 you
are going a step up and allowing armor stacking, which is interesting, but from
a coding perspective that’s a daunting task and I honestly do not envy the
developers involved with such a project.


Here are my concerns:


*By doing this, you may create more problems in terms of
clipping. In DA2 while the different body types and personal armor was a great
idea, there were several issues I ran across of clipping and the armor not
connecting seamlessly. I just hope this new idea is going to fix those issues not make it worse.


 *I have spoken to with several players (here on the internet and in real life) is the romance scenes
suffered because of this (meaning the glue on armor). Will this “new” concept
show a companion and the protagonist in their clothes dry humping? I would find
it even more less appealing being with another companion having their breastplate
shoved against my character’s chest. Sounds even less romantic then what was
presented in DA2.


*In one concept art, you show the chest piece placed on the
female seeker, in doing so you removed the eye chest symbol, which in my
opinion makes it rather bland to look at it. Is there a chance to have a comeback
of the “paint on symbols” we saw in Awakening? This would give players the
option to add a symbol to the armor if they feel it is too bland. Plus adding
in the option to dye armor would be welcomed.

Modifié par Cantina, 14 avril 2012 - 03:53 .

[CaribWarrior J]

I LIKE IT!

[Nyctyris]

I think this idea is amazing.

I totally understand the appeal of a character's "look" from a design perspective (varric chesthair?) but I also felt frustrated/annoyed by not being able to use 99% of the stuff in DA2. I think this strikes a great balance and if done well it could look really awesome!

quick question though, for players (like Yahtzee) who don't like the "trying on different trousers" aspect of rpgs - in other words, the endless sifting through items to optimise your group - will there be any accommodation for them? For example, the ability to just use default follower armour which eventually levels up to a set min, or taking out "loot" armour and only having in "store" armour that you buy? Not that I care either way, just curious. Apologies if this question has been asked before.


*edit* I'm also very much in favour of armor being stat dependent rather than class dependent, for two reasons:

1) I don't think restricting armor to class adds anything to a computer game. It had a point in tabletop D&D or something like that where it would have been a nightmare to balance, and I'm guessing that's where it comes from (?) but in DAO the addition of a stamina stat made that restriction pointless. Not such a problem for the game to do those kinds of calculations and balance etc

2)  As above, stamina actually had a nice tactical effect. There was, for example, actually a benefit to my low level warrior in DAO wearing light armor (more stamina for more moves etc) and a good argument for my high level rogue wearing heavy armor, or parts of heavy armor. I think it would encourage people to build more interesting classes and not feel like they "have" to only take core stats. If you're only going to take core stats and each class has an armour which is just "the best" for it, there's not much point even giving players the option to level up themselves, might as well make it automatic  



I dunno if you guys spend much time looking at tabletop RPG books for inspiration on how they handle classes, or it is even helpful, but if you do and haven't heard of it already, Iw ould recommend looking at Anima. The way Anima handles class balance, class abilities, and class differences is very different from the more traditional D&D approach that seems to have very strongly influenced video game RPGS. anyway just some thoughts.

Modifié par Nyctyris, 14 avril 2012 - 04:45 .

[beermat77]

Seems like a great idea.

What I was hoping for was light,medium and heavy armours for each class.
For Example mage: light would be robes,medium leather and heavy chainmail.
For warriors leather,chainmail & plate.

A few different plugins per weight based on stats would be great.