787 réponses à ce sujet

[Lurklen]

I like this idea, as long as the unique looks are detailed and visually interesting. I gotta say The Witcher 2 really raised the bar as far as costume detail in a fantasy rpg.

I'm honestly not sure why people are upset about this, as long as they don't decide to lower the amount of armor available in the game this sounds identical to the way DAO handled armor except with the added bonus that your party wont look stupid.

[Pasquale1234]

It's a whole different enchilada from the way DAO handled armor.  In DAO, the armor didn't take on entirely different looks depending on which character was wearing it (the body models in terms of race and gender notwithstanding).

In this system, the designers will remain firmly in control of the appearance of each character.

For armor to instantly resize to fit, for example, Sten and Oghren is one thing.  For the same piece of armor to look entirely different on, say a human male warrior templar than it does on a human male warrior seeker seems pretty bizarre to me - but in this proposed system, that is exactly what could happen.

Because iconic signature looks are important.

[Lurklen]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

It's a whole different enchilada from the way DAO handled armor.  In DAO, the armor didn't take on entirely different looks depending on which character was wearing it (the body models in terms of race and gender notwithstanding).

In this system, the designers will remain firmly in control of the appearance of each character.

For armor to instantly resize to fit, for example, Sten and Oghren is one thing.  For the same piece of armor to look entirely different on, say a human male warrior templar than it does on a human male warrior seeker seems pretty bizarre to me - but in this proposed system, that is exactly what could happen.

Because iconic signature looks are important.

 Right but other than the aesthetics it's basically the same system and as long as it looks good and still functions than I don't see the big deal. And I don't think the idea is for the armor to look entirely different, if it's a silver chest piece it will be a silver chest piece on whatever character is able to wear it, it will just be slightly different stylistically.

 I think this is better than me putting a new chest piece on Sten and having him look like an idiot because it doesn't look like something he'd wear, it just has the right stats. This way he'll have those stats and the armor would look more in line with something he'd put on his body. Morrigan is probably a better example she had a unique look in the begining of the game but about halfway through the options for gear all looked like something Wynne would be more comfortable wearing (Don't get me started on the hats.). If Morrigan had been given some of those robes odds are she would have modified them to her taste. So would Wynne or Zevran or Leliana, I just see this as an extension of that idea.

 The two areas of concern for me are: First, will having to make each item of equipment a character is capable of wearing look unique to that character limit the amount of overall equipment avilable or result in a lot of repetative design? And second, will the design for the equipment of the player character who presumably doesn't have an iconic signature look be as varied and visually interesting as the designs for the companion characters? It would suck to have the protagonist looking like the ersatz hero in their own story.

[Pasquale1234]

There was an upgraded version of Morrigan's look available at Flemeth's cabin.

What this proposed system does is force the player to accept the iconic look imposed by the designers, whether you like it or not.  Players who might prefer to see their followers fully dressed for battle may be stuck with a side-boob Morrigan or pants-free Isabela throughout the entire game, regardless of what other armor pieces you put on them.  And the armor pieces may still be class-restricted, so you may not be allowed, for example, to put heavier armor pieces on a rogue regardless of how many attribute points you invest in strength or constitution.  The bottom line is sacrifice of player agency on the altar of iconic follower presentation.  On top of all of that, the zots spent creating this variety of unique iconic looks for all of the followers will mean less zots to spend developing different armors for the protag.

The compromise I suggested many pages ago is to equip each follower with a signature look that will level-up throughout the game (ala DA2) but also allow players to fully customize them ala DAO.  If they also implement the ability to re-color/re-texture clothing and armors, I think we'd have the best of both worlds - signature looks as well as full customization available.

[Fast Jimmy]

While I do agree that this removes player choice and doing that, ever, in an RPG is a step in the wrong direction, this is not the hill I wish to die on for DA3. If they let us equip multiple types of armor, even if it doesn't look hardly different at all, then that's a step in the right direction away from DA2.

At this point, given how in love the devs are with the direction that DA2 took, despite fan outcry on pretty much every feature, diminished sales and a tarnished name on the IP, any step away from it more towards the Origins side of business is a good one, in my book.

I personally would rather they address issues such as the personality system and the paraphrase/dialogue wheel, which are changes with how I primarily deal with the world, rather than cosmetic ones dealing with if my Qunari can wear a certain type of helmet or not.

Again, I think it is a poor compromise, but I think there are bigger fish to fry for the next game.

[Pasquale1234]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I personally would rather they address issues such as the personality system and the paraphrase/dialogue wheel, which are changes with how I primarily deal with the world, rather than cosmetic ones dealing with if my Qunari can wear a certain type of helmet or not.

Again, I think it is a poor compromise, but I think there are bigger fish to fry for the next game.

I don't disagree, and my personal hill is the VO / dialog wheel / paraphrase system,

But given what we've been told about their plans, my corpse has been rotting on that hill for awhile now...

[Cinnabar6]

I am happy NPC appearance modification / customization is in the works. I enjoyed the armor system in DA:O and was somewhat disappointed with the iteration in DA2, so this is a good compromise.

[ianvillan]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I personally would rather they address issues such as the personality system and the paraphrase/dialogue wheel, which are changes with how I primarily deal with the world, rather than cosmetic ones dealing with if my Qunari can wear a certain type of helmet or not.

Again, I think it is a poor compromise, but I think there are bigger fish to fry for the next game.

I don't disagree, and my personal hill is the VO / dialog wheel / paraphrase system,

But given what we've been told about their plans, my corpse has been rotting on that hill for awhile now...

Mine too and I think that their are so many other rotting corpses that they have made there own hill by now.

[murse2008]

From a story-telling perspective, I like this idea a lot.

To me it says: If I were to give this piece of plate-mail to this character, what would they do with it?

Whereas a more reserved character would wear the armor according to specifications and fit the more generic look, another character might only put on one of the spaulders, loosen some of the straps, and decorate it with a symbol of their order. Very cool indeed.

It allows for a two way conversation between the player and the game which I think is something everyone would want. As a player, I have the option of placing an item of armor on a character. As a developer, the artists and writers can interpret that choice according to the personality of their character and use it as a story-telling opportunity.

This could even extend to the statistics. Maybe a character never puts his visor down because he is exceptionally chatty. This means a greater chance of a critical hit being scored, but easier breathing also leads to less stamina loss. This means the same item of armor can have different effects on different followers, even disastrous, if the armor doesn't fit them at all.

It can be easy to argue that fully customisable armor with a generic look is the way to go, but from a story-telling perspective a solution such as this works better since it allows the designers to achieve something similar to the scene in The Two Towers (not sure if I can link it) where Gimli is fitted with chain mail that is clearly too big for him. His reaction and that of Legolas and Aragorn tells us a lot about their friendship and reinforces to the audience why they should care about their fate in the battle of Helms Deep that is to follow.

A system of this nature turns what is an RPG system, into an RPG story-telling device. I say go for it!!

Modifié par murse2008, 20 août 2012 - 04:13 .

[cindercatz]

murse2008 wrote...

From a story-telling perspective, I like this idea a lot.

To me it says: If I were to give this piece of plate-mail to this character, what would they do with it?

Whereas a more reserved character would wear the armor according to specifications and fit the more generic look, another character might only put on one of the spaulders, loosen some of the straps, and decorate it with a symbol of their order. Very cool indeed.

It allows for a two way conversation between the player and the game which I think is something everyone would want. As a player, I have the option of placing an item of armor on a character. As a developer, the artists and writers can interpret that choice according to the personality of their character and use it as a story-telling opportunity.

This could even extend to the statistics. Maybe a character never puts his visor down because he is exceptionally chatty. This means a greater chance of a critical hit being scored, but easier breathing also leads to less stamina loss. This means the same item of armor can have different effects on different followers, even disastrous, if the armor doesn't fit them at all.

...

A system of this nature turns what is an RPG system, into an RPG story-telling device. I say go for it!!

Totally agreed with everything except the bolded bit. I don't think any armor choice should automatically be disastrous if you can choose it, but they should play into different directions you could take your character developement. So if you have a rogue whom you've decided to focus on hand to hand combat, and with the appropriate strength stat, high dexterity, and a modicum of health, you decide to equip massive armor, that rogue would wear whatever parts of that armor or a banded part of the armor to suit the character visually, and you'd get the tradeoff of very high survivability for very low stamina, a much steeper hit than the typical warrior class character would suffer, but your rogue would still have his/her rogue skills and general lethality.

I actually did that with my favorite rogue in DA:O (though I later traded her Warden Commander armor in for a top set of light armor in DA:A when it made more sense). She typically used my top longsword and my top dagger together, since she was built for both, and relied on her dexterity, rogue buffs, and high damage resistance to just straight up outduel and outlast most anything I came up against (excluding high dragons, bows and misdirection there). She was all about auto-dodge (the DA:O/ KoTOR system, which is technically how I think DA3 should work, only faster) with passive buffs, extreme efficiency in the basic hand to hand, and judicious use of skills (primarily the high end duel wield skills). She was not your typical misdirection and crowd control rogue, and her build matched her personality, so I loved her all the more.

I don't want any class restrictions to extend to how I build my character, including any firm incentive that a particular class must wear a particular armor class. Just provide unique tradeoffs for them all. I prefer the weight modifiers from DA:O greatly, but if not, then apply the same sort of effect through class specific armor typy modifiers, but don't design anything to be a guaranteed negative regardless of build.

[Feanor_II]

I could live with that....... still...... I'm afraid of that "class restrictions": I would like to use Light, Medium or Heavy armors regarless the class, I prefer the system where the items are restricted by skills points, the same goes with weapons, in DA:O for example I always use to have some swords for mages "just in case" or Alistair was such a versatile character that could be even trained as an arcer warrior with lighter armors.

[zyntifox]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

There was an upgraded version of Morrigan's look available at Flemeth's cabin.

What this proposed system does is force the player to accept the iconic look imposed by the designers, whether you like it or not.  Players who might prefer to see their followers fully dressed for battle may be stuck with a side-boob Morrigan or pants-free Isabela throughout the entire game, regardless of what other armor pieces you put on them.  And the armor pieces may still be class-restricted, so you may not be allowed, for example, to put heavier armor pieces on a rogue regardless of how many attribute points you invest in strength or constitution.  The bottom line is sacrifice of player agency on the altar of iconic follower presentation.  On top of all of that, the zots spent creating this variety of unique iconic looks for all of the followers will mean less zots to spend developing different armors for the protag.

The compromise I suggested many pages ago is to equip each follower with a signature look that will level-up throughout the game (ala DA2) but also allow players to fully customize them ala DAO.  If they also implement the ability to re-color/re-texture clothing and armors, I think we'd have the best of both worlds - signature looks as well as full customization available.

That's the thing, we should be able to do that. But there should be a penalty in the form that the character will be less useful. For example, i want to be able to put a heavy plate on a mage companion if i invest sufficient strength on him but there should be a cost to it, such as not having enough magic for spells and/or spell failure from armor (this spell failure should be reduced or elimiated through specialization, i.e Arcane warrior).

And regarding iconic looks that change depending on which armor is used i think is a bad idea. Don't get me wrong iconic armor can be a good thing but it shouldn't be forced. And i agree that your compromise is the best option; it will leave everyone happy.

[eroeru]

About the leaked designs - all besides the ones brought out officially here (the white male/female ones) seem much too cartoony. The things with nowadays games being exclusively and purposely "ungritty" goes too far, and personally makes me want to sometimes.

[Pasquale1234]

murse2008 wrote...
It allows for a two way conversation between the player and the game which I think is something everyone would want. As a player, I have the option of placing an item of armor on a character. As a developer, the artists and writers can interpret that choice according to the personality of their character and use it as a story-telling opportunity.
<snip>
A system of this nature turns what is an RPG system, into an RPG story-telling device. I say go for it!!

But it leaves more of the story-telling firmly in the hands of the devs, with less opportunity for the player to co-create the story and emergent narrative.  That's why I take issue with it.  Any way you spin it, it is a reduction of player agency as compared with full customization.

Cstaf wrote...
That's the thing, we should be able to do that. But there should be a penalty in the form that the character will be less useful. For example, i want to be able to put a heavy plate on a mage companion if i invest sufficient strength on him but there should be a cost to it, such as not having enough magic for spells and/or spell failure from armor (this spell failure should be reduced or elimiated through specialization, i.e Arcane warrior).

Agreed.  I thought the fatigue system in DAO accomplished that pretty effectively.

[cindercatz]

Cstaf wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...


The compromise I suggested many pages ago is to equip each follower with a signature look that will level-up throughout the game (ala DA2) but also allow players to fully customize them ala DAO. 

 And i agree that your compromise is the best option; it will leave everyone happy.

Or not. I really, really don't want that. I like all of the characters to have their own visual personality, but I also want full customization. That way, I can see the direct visual effect of all my armor choices, which is important, because min/maxing for me is not that big a deal in terms of how I interact with a game. I enjoy it, but moreso in terms of how it builds my character and my companion characters than in terms of math. I really want to see the armor I apply, not a static or slowly evolving pre-determined visual character. So DA2 was extremely disappointing and frustrating in that department, though I loved each character's initial design apart from that. Part of that characterization I'm looking to recapture, though, a big part, is visual identity, and so I also much prefer each character to have their own look, no matter what I equip them with. I strongly favor the idea outlined in the blog post, which is why I suggested it in the first place a few years ago (and also for ME3, which didn't happen).

Your idea basically says to me, visually, that I can either have the stat customization with hodgepodge visuals that I likely won't find as appealing, or I can have a static predetermined look (whether that be the predetermined design option or the uncharactered armor set option or the no-input static DA2 type option), and I should be happy with one or the other, when in reality I'd be unhappy with either option. So what you're proposing is no better to me than what we got in DA2, which would be very, very disappointing again, and/or no better than DA:O, which is alright I guess (though antithetical to what BioWare is trying to get in terms of visual identity), but also visually boring. Basically, pick your poison. I'm really hoping we get the full treatment of what's outlined in Gaider's post, which is the only option I see as a real upgrade for the series. Also, it'd be something that'd be unique to Dragon Age in gaming so far, and that's a big plus. Dragon Age should give customization and character equal weight.

edit: On the color/texture customization. I can live with or without it. For me, it's a nice extra if you can afford to do that after everything else, but mostly I see these kinds of armor sets as better visually if I were to just stick to their original properties anyway. If every character has their own version of leather boots, for example, there's no need for me to muck with color to visually differentiate them, and for the most part, I think leather should look like leather, steel should look like steel, etc. They do need to give some visual differentiation to things like iron vs. red iron, Grey steel vs. steel, but none of that requires me to be able to edit color. Texture editing really doesn't do much for me with Dragon Age. It's not as appropriate to the technologies involved as it is for Mass Effect's space age polymer/ceramic machine tooled environment suits, y'know? So if they can do it on top of everything else, fine. If it's a drain on this part of the art budget, don't worry about it, no big deal. One character specific look per basic equipment piece is plenty.

I am all for having the more storied, unique armor sets having their own defined look though, because there you're talking a specific piece of lore, not a generic piece of equipment that could really be made hundreds of different ways. Having a couple of those in the game can save some developement resources, make it easier to churn out armor dlc, etc. Not a problem. I think it would be cool, however, if say a dwarven lore armor had a modified look on non dwarven characters, or a qunari set looked a little oversized on characters of other species, etc., so characters out of the size range would still have their own versions of some suits. That would be cool, but that does require a little bit more variation for the lore suits.

Modifié par cindercatz, 25 août 2012 - 04:12 .

[Pasquale1234]

cindercatz wrote...
Your idea basically says to me, visually, that I can either have the stat customization with hodgepodge visuals that I likely won't find as appealing, or I can have a static predetermined look

It wouldn't be entirely static if they also implement the ability to re-color/re-texture.

And if they design the followers to allow piece-by-piece replacement, e.g., applying a breastplate would not impact the skirty-looking appliance on the torso, the possibilities grow exponentially.

It does support unique visual identity for players who value that while at the same time allowing players to achieve a uniform team look if that is their preference.

I value player agency in co-creating the gaming experience over the devs' strict definitions of characters.

[cindercatz]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

cindercatz wrote...
Your idea basically says to me, visually, that I can either have the stat customization with hodgepodge visuals that I likely won't find as appealing, or I can have a static predetermined look

It wouldn't be entirely static if they also implement the ability to re-color/re-texture.

And if they design the followers to allow piece-by-piece replacement, e.g., applying a breastplate would not impact the skirty-looking appliance on the torso, the possibilities grow exponentially.

It does support unique visual identity for players who value that while at the same time allowing players to achieve a uniform team look if that is their preference.

I value player agency in co-creating the gaming experience over the devs' strict definitions of characters.

Basically, what you're describing now is exactly what's in the post, though, with the extra added layer of a default defined look for every piece of armor in the game, so that the player can build a uniform for the entire squad if they want to. I don't have a problem if simply adding "default option" to every piece is what you're talking about, but it's like textures or color editing for me; it's nice if the extra resources allow for it, though I'd rather that get spent on more variable armor pieces. I think the uniform thing is cool if you want to do that in your game, like say if in DA:A everybody's a Warden and you want them all to wear Warden gear, but I'd argue you can get the same thing in the system that's proposed in the blog post.

Y'know, uniforms are great and all, but once you get out in the world, everybody's uniform starts to take on their personality a bit anyway. Soldiers go to war in the same gear a lot of the time, but each of them wears that gear a little differently as time goes on once they're out on the battlefield, and in Dragon Age we're talking about fitted, smithed suits of armor, not pressed clothes and kevlar. If everybody in your party has got all steel armor, and they each wear their own version of it, it's still all steel armor, just best adapted to their individual strengths and personality. I see that as a uniform look anyway, but a uniform with personality, which is visually and roleplay-wise better and more realistic imo. I don't see it as any loss of player agency. More we're getting that agency back, just an enhanced, less cumbersome version of it. I won't have to ignore my little elves and dwarves running around in qunari armor looking just like my qunari running around in dwarf armor, y'know? Or my mages' heavy armor (love Arcane Warrior for Wynne, and my version of Anders was sword and shield in medium gear even without AW) gauntlets implausably tying up their finger dexterity, or my hand to hand duelist/archer elf girl looking overly weighed down in her giant shoulder pauldrons, etc.

edit: And again, for me, color and texture editing are kind of unnecessary for Dragon Age if we have more substantial visual differentiation between each character's version of basic armor. Texture editing is even a bit out of place. These are nice little touches if you've got the extra budget and nothing else to do with it, but for Dragon Age, they don't add too much and they by no means even come close to replacing fully unique visual options. When I think of this stuff, I think of trying to match up colors that wildly clash in an original design when you have elements that aren't designed to fit together, and I think of polymer plastics and ceramics (i.e. High Tech Mass Effect Stuff). That and old low-tech games where the only way to tell characters apart is by color set. If the original pieces are designed around their natural material properties and have unique visual physical deviations, I don't see either color or texture modding as necessary or very additive to dragon age. Although color editing the cloth parts of whatever they wear would be a nice little cherry on top kind of thing. Personally, I'm not that likely to use it all that much. If it's there, I'm sure I'd play with it a bit, but it's no big deal.

Modifié par cindercatz, 25 août 2012 - 05:04 .

[Pasquale1234]

cindercatz wrote...
Basically, what you're describing now is exactly what's in the post, though, with the extra added layer of a default defined look for every piece of armor in the game, so that the player can build a uniform for the entire squad if they want to.

That's a lot more complicated (and costly) than what I was suggesting.  Each piece would have one single appearance that could be customized by changing colors / textures.

it's nice if the extra resources allow for it, though I'd rather that get spent on more variable armor pieces

I think it's a lot cheaper to allow the player to apply different colors / textures to existing armor than it is to design a lot more different styles.  Also, that customization ability would apply to every single armor in the game, which really opens up the player's options.

I think the uniform thing is cool if you want to do that in your game, like say if in DA:A everybody's a Warden and you want them all to wear Warden gear, but I'd argue you can get the same thing in the system that's proposed in the blog post.

No, you couldn't.  What they are proposing is that each follower has their own unique signature look, and that every piece of armor would look different on each companion.  In DAO you could, for example, put steel chainmail on all of your followers and it would look the same (gender/race body models notwithstanding).  With this system, that steel chainmail will morph to look different on each character.  So, on Morrigan you might see some version with sideboob, and on Isabela you might still see a lot of cleavage and no pants.  Until we see the designs, we don't know how different pieces will look on different characters - that is entirely up to the devs.

As for the roleplay aspects, I'd like to have more control over that.  I might decide, for example, that one of the changes in Isabela due to Hawke's influence is that she values herself more and wants to be better protected in battle, or that Hawke loves her enough to insist that she wears full armor protection.  For another example, maybe the Warden chooses to use Leliana as a pure archer, and she finds the midriff-exposing elven armor to be less constrictive for archery and therefore uses that armor.  I want those choices left to the player, not restricted by the devs' vision.  All of that contributes greatly to role-play for me.

edit: And again, for me, color and texture editing are kind of unnecessary for Dragon Age if we have more substantial visual differentiation between each character's version of basic armor. Texture editing is even a bit out of place.

I disagree  Some armors might be dinged and rusty, some brushed or dull-looking, some polished bright and shiny, and in various shades of steely-grey, coppery-brass, bright chrome, or gold.  Leathers could be full-grain, brushed suede, snakeskin, gator hide, drakeskin, or dragon scales.  Dragonbone could be another texture option, and I think the role-play potential is enormous.  You could give a slobbish character a polished set only to have it become dingy and rusty over time, or put an old rusted set on a fashion plate and let them improve it.  Upon returning from an encounter with drakes, you could apply some of your newly acquired drakeskin to some or all of your companions' armor - and color it to complement the rest of their gear.

All of those things could be possible if the player were allowed to edit colors and textures on armors.  Frankly, this is the aspect of the whole proposal that interests me the most, because I see huge role-playing latitude in it.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 25 août 2012 - 06:56 .

[Savber100]

Bioware needs to add an explanation of how the armor changes and it's not too hard.

Just have the character briefly say that they liked the armor and briefly tinkered with it to fit themselves or dropped by a nearby blacksmith to get it fixed. That is all it takes to explain the change... It's better than just "plop and armor changes"

It might seem like a nitpick but if you think about it, the difference will be less immersion-breaking than the current direction.

It might seem like nothing now but it will be

[cindercatz]

Good point. I think it would be cool if you have a few conversation events as you're going to the smithy, for example, where it's clear that the character was there to get some fitting or alterations done. Something like that. Not jarring, not gameplay intrusive, and it also provides a storytelling oppurtunity. Maybe add a codex entry on it also. Don't forget this time we start off with Orlais, also, where personal flare and style is at a premium.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

That's a lot more complicated (and costly) than what I was suggesting.  Each piece would have one single appearance that could be customized by changing colors / textures.

Personally, it's worth the cost, absolutely worth every penny, to get more visual variety. When I'm playing the game, I honestly want every single unique named piece to have its own visual identity for each character. You get a lot of immersion and characterization bang for your buck. Changing colors, again, is nice, but gets you nothing much because you're still staring at the same form with the same function. The shape, and thereby the visual of the character you're looking at, never changes, only it's paint job, and there's no stat difference or other gameplay function that goes along with it. To me, it's like saying that each different shade of a motif flower painting is somehow more interesting than it's counterpart, or should equally maintain my interest. Not happening. Allowing me only the option to change colors is essentially no better than DA2. It's a purely aesthetic diversion, though a nice one to have if there's enough time and money after the other, far more important stuff, imo. Texture, while you can apply it to a few items (leather in particular, but not in terms of dragonscale or hardened, etc., because those are and should remain different items altogether with different gameplay stat tradeoffs or tiering).

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I think it's a lot cheaper to allow the player to apply different colors / textures to existing armor than it is to design a lot more different styles.  Also, that customization ability would apply to every single armor in the game, which really opens up the player's options.

Not really. It might be cheaper, but it's money spent poorly, when you consider the tradeoff. If the extra budget and time are there, fine. Otherwise, it's not worth doing on its own. It's an extremely poor substitute for a full line of visually unique, gameplay integrated items, and if we actually got that after the oppurtunity we have to get something so much better, I'd be extremely disappointed. My enjoyment of the game overall, for certain, would take a nosedive right there.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

No, you couldn't.  What they are proposing is that each follower has their own unique signature look, and that every piece of armor would look different on each companion.  In DAO you could, for example, put steel chainmail on all of your followers and it would look the same (gender/race body models notwithstanding).  With this system, that steel chainmail will morph to look different on each character.  So, on Morrigan you might see some version with sideboob, and on Isabela you might still see a lot of cleavage and no pants.  Until we see the designs, we don't know how different pieces will look on different characters - that is entirely up to the devs.

As for the roleplay aspects, I'd like to have more control over that.  I might decide, for example, that one of the changes in Isabela due to Hawke's influence is that she values herself more and wants to be better protected in battle, or that Hawke loves her enough to insist that she wears full armor protection.  For another example, maybe the Warden chooses to use Leliana as a pure archer, and she finds the midriff-exposing elven armor to be less constrictive for archery and therefore uses that armor.  I want those choices left to the player, not restricted by the devs' vision.  All of that contributes greatly to role-play for me.

See, that cuts into character for me. If you as the player are deciding that Morrigan all of a sudden doesn't like her sideboob because she all of a sudden doesn't see the value in weaponized sex appeal, or if you decide that Isabella's personal expression of her own attitudes and aptitudes (as a smarmy, loud, free spirited buccaneer rogue in the classic sense) conflicts with yours, and you wish they'd wear something different to match the internal gameworld you'd like to imagine than to interact with the characters as they are, I don't think that has anything to do with roleplay. Those points of view on the player's part should have nothing to do with the companion characters in game, as they're directly contrary to who those characters are.

The Leliana thing is a different question, where you might decide she's primarily an archer, a melee fighter, or a hybrid, where I tended to focus on her archery and armor her in either the midriff baring suit you're talking about (blue variant) or medium armor. I could never make her look like the alluring mix of agent provacateur and Joan D'Arc that she was, though. With the new system, I could equip her however I saw fit, but her personal quality would also still come through no matter what. That's an improvement in my book.

The interplay of relationships between characters and between the player and the companion characters is a bedrock primary element of what makes a BioWare game, especially Dragon Age, and you have to give up some control of their personalities (and the choices those non-PC characters would make) to have that. If you can reinforce those characters visually while still giving a very high degree of both stat and visual customization to the player, that's what you should do. I think the new system does a beautiful job of that, assuming there's enough variation between each item within a type for a given character.

Now if you can tie these unique, character specific armor items and outfits to that character's personal arc visually, you should also do that, but it's again more expensive. Personally, I think that's also worth it, if you're talking about a few items here and there changing style to suit their character developement, whatever that is. While they're at it, depending on the timeframe, you could age the characters visually as well, etc. It all helps immersion, if the story would call for it.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I disagree  Some armors might be dinged and rusty, some brushed or dull-looking, some polished bright and shiny, and in various shades of steely-grey, coppery-brass, bright chrome, or gold.  Leathers could be full-grain, brushed suede, snakeskin, gator hide, drakeskin, or dragon scales.  Dragonbone could be another texture option, and I think the role-play potential is enormous.  You could give a slobbish character a polished set only to have it become dingy and rusty over time, or put an old rusted set on a fashion plate and let them improve it.  Upon returning from an encounter with drakes, you could apply some of your newly acquired drakeskin to some or all of your companions' armor - and color it to complement the rest of their gear.

All of those things could be possible if the player were allowed to edit colors and textures on armors.  Frankly, this is the aspect of the whole proposal that interests me the most, because I see huge role-playing latitude in it.

The first part of that is materials, all of which would be unique items anyway (hardened leather, leather, drakeskin, dragon scale, for example, all different items entirely with their own look, even rusted metal or gold, etc., different equipment). The second is dirt/wear & tear, which I'd say if you're going to do it, great, but treat it like blood. It doesn't make much sense that well looked after equipment would look grimy all the while as you're parading around the Grand Cathedral or whatever, and I don't want to be manually changing dirt levels throughout the game either. As an effect akin to Batman's suit degradation in the Arkham games, or Wolverine's injuries in his most recent game, or like blood in DA so far, then great if you've got the resources to throw at it (shouldn't be too hard to tackle right along with blood spatter).

The last part (brushed suede etc.) is a texture modding thing, and it's great, and I like it, but it's not nearly as important to me as the unique armor variants. It's something (like cloth color) you as a player tell the game, and then get nothing back, as opposed to the two way communication with the game as the poster a little ways up put it. I much prefer the latter, with the former as a nice cherry on top kind of thing. Those unique textures per character would ideally be part of the character's unique version of their leathers anyway, and then they would improve immersion, and they would enhance characterization, and they would aid roleplay. If they do decide to also include that kind of texture modding, though, I certainly won't complain. It's just not at all equivalent to the unique item variants we could have, that add much more imo.

edits: a few times for typos, sp mistakes, etc., probably more in there, nm

Modifié par cindercatz, 25 août 2012 - 09:57 .

[Pasquale1234]

cindercatz wrote...
Personally, it's worth the cost, absolutely worth every penny, to get more visual variety. When I'm playing the game, I honestly want every single unique named piece to have its own visual identity for each character.

Good luck getting it.  The unique visual identities per character will likely be limited to a handful per character.

Allowing me only the option to change colors is essentially no better than DA2. It's a purely aesthetic diversion, though a nice one to have if there's enough time and money after the other, far more important stuff, imo.

One can say the same thing about any aspect of visual identity.

Not really. It might be cheaper, but it's money spent poorly, when you consider the tradeoff.

We'll disagree.  For the zot cost of another armor model or two, I'd rather be able to change textures and colors on all of the armors.

See, that cuts into character for me. <snip>

I think we agree to a large extent about the characterizations, but disagree about whether BioWare should exert absolute control over every aspect of them and their development throughout every playthrough.

You seem to be willing to accept the idea that each character would be the same (or go through the exact same developmental path) in every playthrough, but I'm not.  If I play different protags that create different experiences, different relationships, different kinds of growth for them, then I'd like to be able to reflect that in their wardrobe choices.

But then, I'm generally in it to co-create the story and emergent narrative.  The authored narrative is only part of my gaming experience, and I'll always prefer more player agency over less.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 25 août 2012 - 11:09 .

[cindercatz]

There's a ton more to take from how a set of armor is crafted, cut, and worn (not to mention visual variety, identity, and personality) than any simple color swap. It's not at all comparable. Aside from the aesthetic improvement, you also get stronger characterization, deeper immersion, and a stronger sense of form following function, which is a big suspension of disbelief hurdle I hate to jump with color swap armors.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I think we agree to a large extent about the characterizations, but disagree about whether BioWare should exert absolute control over every aspect of them and their development throughout every playthrough.

You seem to be willing to accept the idea that each character would be the same (or go through the exact same developmental path) in every playthrough, but I'm not.  If I play different protags that create different experiences, different relationships, different kinds of growth for them, then I'd like to be able to reflect that in their wardrobe choices.

But then, I'm generally in it to co-create the story and emergent narrative.  The authored narrative is only part of my gaming experience, and I'll always prefer more player agency over less.

No, I agree with what you're saying here for the most part. I'm in it for the emergent narrative also, that and the character interaction. What I'm saying is that the characters need to continue to be who they are at a fundamental level, allowing you to guide them on an arc that can go a few different ways (in addition to shaping different versions of the personal relationship your character has with them). I hope that the visual will change if the character's outlook changes, but that doesn't mean they all of a sudden want to cover up more, y'know? In other words, you can change their mind on certain issues, but not their basic personality, just like you can influence people, but you'll never change them at their core. With Dragon Age in particular, I'm trying to run six different game worlds, and every one, hopefully, will turn up different for every character in them, or as much as I can make it, playing off my very different player characters. I don't play BioWare games for any kind of static story. I just think the same should apply to visual identity and characterization. It's just a better version of what we've had in DA:O, KoTOR, Mass Effect, imo. There's more characterization, interplay and more visual variety. It's a next step evolution of the good stuff, rather than a player agency step back like DA2 or what you suggested earlier is, for me.

I want as much player agency as I can get and I want stronger characterization, not to mention I don't want to get bored with what I'm looking at for 100+ hours for many playthroughs.

[Parmida]

*Shepard creepy rape face*.... I approve!

Modifié par Parmida, 26 août 2012 - 12:40 .

[ray.mitch7410]

Get rid of class restrictions.

My mage does at least 30 minutes of strength/circuit training a day. This allows him to feel energized, removes stress, and gives him the capacity to wear something heavier than a f(_)cking robe. This allows for more than enough time to tend to his magely chores.

[ianvillan]

ray.mitch7410 wrote...

Get rid of class restrictions.

My mage does at least 30 minutes of strength/circuit training a day. This allows him to feel energized, removes stress, and gives him the capacity to wear something heavier than a f(_)cking robe. This allows for more than enough time to tend to his magely chores.

Dont forget all the acrobatics training he does to be able to twirl his staff like an olympic gymnast.