414 réponses à ce sujet

[M Hedonist]

A missing boss battle is not necessarily something that could break an ending as the ME3 ending is broken, but there's really no reason not to include one. There are various ways to do a final boss.
Did anybody play the first Fallout game? That game had an extremely difficult final boss, but you had the option to convince him that his plans are futile (only if you've done a certain side quest) and you even had the option to completely skip him by simply blowing up his base. There's a right way to do a final boss, and a bad way to do a final boss. Saren in the first ME is a good example; you could skip the first part of the battle, but not the second one. You are being rewarded for looking for alternatives to the fight, but you still are forced to fight to a certain degree.

[M Hedonist]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

I really liked that the last battle of the ME trilogy was one fought with words instead of a traditional boss fight. The ending may have been poorly executed, but I think there are some great ideas in it and having the final confrontation being a verbal one with TIM and Anderson was a great move. Mass Effect has always been about characters/dialogue first and combat second, so its only fitting that your final battle is one fought with words.

But it ultimately had no impact on what happened, it's either you shoot TIM or TIM shoots himself. There's no actual battle you're trying to avoid by talking, if anything you're fighting for the soul of TIM.

[The Night Mammoth]

It's not really a battle though, is it?

You either shoot him, or convince him to shoot himself. There's pretty much nothing challenging about your confrontation with the Illusive Man.

I like the idea, but not the execution. To be perfectly honest, we should have had two 'boss battles'.

One with the Illusive Man, where you resist idoctrination, representing the subtle, supplanting side of the Reapers.

One with Harbinger where you have to destroy him in an epic battle, representing their aggressive, destructive side.

HAHA! There's depth for you Luzarius!

[crimzontearz]

I was born in '79 ergo I do not fall into the category of "kids" you seem to have created.....and I would still take a bossfight over this failure of a caricature of an attempt to an ending.

also, trolls like you should be IP banned

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Luzarius wrote...

Am I right or wrong?

I believe Bioware is choosing NOT to cater to the MTV generation of "kids" who are 13-25.  Instead Bioware is choosing to cater to their more mature audience and striving to push the limits of todays youth.

Bioware i respect you for this.  Most Bioware writers are probably over the age of 28 right? 

My challenge to the young generation of ME players is this.  Try to think like a mature adult instead of a silly kid wanting a boss fight at the end of the game.  I say this with the deepest respect possible since the youth have to carry the torch. Consider your limits pushed.

If I come off arrogant then I apologize in advance.

Luzarius
"no death ruleset"

If you mean full of plot wholes, an ending that doesn't tie with the rest of the game and a god child deus ex machina by "thought provoking" then I'd have to disagree with you.

[M Hedonist]

And it's not like that 'battle' with TIM is even decided within that dialogue at the end. You only have the option to convince TIM to kill himself if you've always picked the paragon options in the dialogues with TIM prior to that. If you've picked a renegade response in any of these other dialogues you have already lost the battle from the start.

Modifié par Sauruz, 14 avril 2012 - 10:55 .

[Kanon777]

nitefyre410 wrote...
Therefore, I'm convinced the OP is either a really bad troll (honestly, who advertizes their website on troll posts?) or a hipster.

Its hard to say he is a bad troll when this thread had almost 200 answers. He seems to be very successfull one (if is true that he is a troll instead of just having a "controversial opinion")

Modifié par Kanon777, 14 avril 2012 - 10:54 .

[nitefyre410]

When done correctly Boss fights serve a 2 fold purpose ... first they can be narrative high points in the story and two test the players skill  and grasp of the game play mechanics that have been introduced.  In other words you can't beat the boss... Get better.

The problem is Bioware can't do them very well at all... anyway we have given this thread too much attention as is.


@Kanon unfortunately I can not take credit for  the statement you quoted me one - I was quoting someone else.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 14 avril 2012 - 10:58 .

[xcomcmdr]

Luzarius wrote...

Am I right or wrong?

Wrong.

Kids don't like Catalyst Space Brats who ruin a good story by introducing more plot holes than one can count.

For instance:
Sovereign in ME 1 says that the Reapers built the Citadel and the Mass Relays (<-- big canonical plot point)
Now Catalyst Kid (who is a part of the Citadel) says that the Reapers are [his]  " solution"

So the Reapers decided to build the Citadel (and therefore the Catalyst) a long time ago [ME 1]
Now the Catalyst decided a long time ago to build the Reapers [ME 3's ending]

And that's just one huge plothole, on top of all others (RIP, narrative coherence). And don't forget the change of the core theme of the ME series at the last minute ("free will" / "you can overcome impossible odds" becomes "organics vs synthetics" / "you can't fight fate"), the fact that the focus on characters is lost (well they all die anyway...), and tons of others failures in the ending.

Modifié par xcomcmdr, 14 avril 2012 - 11:00 .

[Candidate 88766]

Sauruz wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

I really liked that the last battle of the ME trilogy was one fought with words instead of a traditional boss fight. The ending may have been poorly executed, but I think there are some great ideas in it and having the final confrontation being a verbal one with TIM and Anderson was a great move. Mass Effect has always been about characters/dialogue first and combat second, so its only fitting that your final battle is one fought with words.

But it ultimately had no impact on what happened, it's either you shoot TIM or TIM shoots himself. There's no actual battle you're trying to avoid by talking, if anything you're fighting for the soul of TIM.

But your dialogue choices actually affect the outcome. TIM can shoot himself, you can shoot TIM or you can shoot TIM after he kills Anderson. 

Ulimately that changes nothing, but neither does a boss fight - if it had been a traditional boss fight, then TIM would've died at the end no matter what you do. It makes no difference if its a traditional boss fight or a conversation, so I'm glad they made it a conversation - it felt more in keeping with what Mass Effect is.

[Relwyn]

Oh look, it's Luzarius again. Getting called everytime on his BS and then runs away because it's too much for him. Then he starts a new thread and the same story starts over again.

[The Protheans]

I agree with the OP.
Bioware, make new thought provoking endings without a boss fight.

Modifié par The Protheans, 14 avril 2012 - 11:01 .

[Seboist]

wiggles89 wrote...

Bioware caters to the mature audience?



Troll harder.

Yeah, they'll have female squadmates running around like that in combat and in hazardous enviroments but they won't have strippers... strip in a place like Omega. What a wonderfully mature series.

[Simocrates]

His name was Marauder Shields.

[The Protheans]

Seboist wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

Bioware caters to the mature audience?



Troll harder.

Yeah, they'll have female squadmates running around like that in combat and in hazardous enviroments but they won't have strippers... strip in a place like Omega. What a wonderfully mature series.

You should see shepard running around the citadel in bra and panties.
In fact if it was your casual clothes you would see it in that scene with Miranda.

Modifié par The Protheans, 14 avril 2012 - 11:03 .

[LTKerr]

Let's feed the troll...

[M Hedonist]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
 It makes no difference if its a traditional boss fight or a conversation, so I'm glad they made it a conversation - it felt more in keeping with what Mass Effect is.

How is that keeping with what Mass Effect is? Did you even play the other two games? I hope you're aware how nonsensical that statement ist.

[CaribbeanCLANK]

Luzarius wrote...

Am I right or wrong?

I believe Bioware is choosing NOT to cater to the MTV generation of "kids" who are 13-25.  Instead Bioware is choosing to cater to their more mature audience and striving to push the limits of todays youth.

Bioware i respect you for this.  Most Bioware writers are probably over the age of 28 right? 

My challenge to the young generation of ME players is this.  Try to think like a mature adult instead of a silly kid wanting a boss fight at the end of the game .  I say this with the deepest respect possible since the youth have to carry the torch. Consider your limits pushed.

If I come off arrogant then I apologize in advance.

Luzarius
"no death ruleset"

If you think the ending of ME3 was thought provoking and stimulating, I would have to disagree with you. I personally found it to be a rushed lazy end to a very deep, thought provoking trilogy of games. This is what makes ME3's ending so disappointing for me...up until that point these games had an amazing level of attention to detail and the writing was stellar.

And Boss fights do not make games childish or less mature. There are many great games with boss fights (ME & ME2 for example) and at the age of 34 I still enjoy a good boss fight. If the ME3 ending was Bioware's way to add sophistication to the trilogies end then they have failed.

Modifié par CaribbeanCLANK, 14 avril 2012 - 11:43 .

[Yokokorama]

Luzarius wrote...
I believe Bioware is choosing NOT to cater to the MTV generation of "kids" who are 13-25.  Instead Bioware is choosing to cater to their more mature audience and striving to push the limits of todays youth.

You'd have to explain what you consider "mature" in this context for anything you say to be valid.   

I also call bullcrap on your assetion that Bioware trying to attract a 25+ audience.  If they truly succeeded in doing that, the game's sales would be horrible.  Almost everyone I know who has played the game is within the 18-21 age range, and I'm sure there are tons of younger kids who bought it too.  If only 25 year olds bought it, they'd lose a large chunk of their sales.

This is not to mention that Bioware themselves have stated that they dumbed down the game for a newer audience.  The sole purpose of Vega was to ease newer players in.  So if they were so set on maturity, they shouldn't have to compromise their game for newer players and instead expect us to go through the whole story (like adults) and put a character that isn't a meat-head in Vega's place.

My challenge to the young generation of ME players is this.  Try to think like a mature adult instead of a silly kid wanting a boss fight at the end of the game.  

Explain whats so immature about having a boss fight in the end of the game.  

I also find it hilarious that you think Bioware is "above" having boss fights in their games.  We had one in ME1 (Saren).  We had one in ME2 (Human Reapers).  We had one in DA:O (Archdemon).  We had one in DA2 (Meredith).  Literally every Bioware game has had a final boss in it.  Harbinger was foreshadowed throughout the entire ME2 campaign to be final villain material.  If executed correctly, it would be fine.

Furthermore, even in ME3, its not like Bioware neglected the idea of boss battles.  There are tons of enemies with pretty high HP that are essentially pseudo bosses, like Atlas, Banshees, and Brutes.  I guess those should be taken out too since they're immature to have, right? Yes, we should just have generic Husks that die in two bullets to portray our mature adult-like nature.

If I come off arrogant then I apologize in advance.

Of course you come off as arrogant, and you know it.  You come around insulting people's intelligence/maturity with no reasoning whatsoever.

Modifié par Yokokorama, 14 avril 2012 - 11:14 .

[lashrouxed]

A boss fight at the end of a video game?

My, NO, that would be too silly!

[Chakuura]

I don't so much mind that there was no traditional boss battle...but the idea that the end of this game was thought provoking or mentally stimulating is so false it's laughable.

[nitefyre410]

This whole notion of Bioware "Dumbing down" their games really? Like Mass Effect or any of Bioware games were that smart or hard to understand to being with...

[DonYourAviators]

So who was their target audience when we got neither?