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Braced myself for horrible ending...and it was good


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#51
AJRimmsey

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2papercuts wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

Threads like these always baffle me. People always say "I liked it" or "it was good" and then offer absolutely ZERO explanation to the horde of plot holes, inconsistencies, lackluster cinematics and obliteration of the entire goal and purpose of fighting the reapers since day one.

But hey. It was "epic" and "satisfying".

yeah ok....sure.


i get just as baffled when someone demands another to explain themselves,as if they should.

and then proceed to be rude and obnoxious when they dont.


especially when they simply started a thread to say they liked the game.


people are weird ;)


you should explain since its a discussion board, otherwise its just a worthless cool story bro


do you feel "entitled" to an explaination ?

if so then you need to explain first where this entitlement comes from,to better judge why you are so sure you deserve the time it takes to explain ourselves to you.
or is this discussion board suddenly an enforced customer survey system.

just curious :whistle:

your a troll


hands up..who knew that was coming :D

#52
DaylaLayne

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It's like a law here now that if you like the ending or agree with somone that likes the ending you are a troll. That is insane.

Modifié par YayCookies, 14 avril 2012 - 06:00 .


#53
Kuari999

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AJRimmsey wrote...
hands up..who knew that was coming :D


Hard not to.  What else do you call someone who believes their viewpoint should be immune from criticism in all forms?  Well, there's a lot of words.  Troll is just the nice one.

YayCookies wrote...

It's like a law here now that if you
like the ending or agree with somone that likes the ending you are a
troll. That is insane. BTW it is You're a troll not your


I'm perfectly fine with people disagreeing with my views.  I am not fine in people believing that they should be immune from criticism while criticizing others.  Hypocritical trash like that is what really makes forums a pain in the ass.

Modifié par Kuari999, 14 avril 2012 - 06:00 .


#54
LegendaryBlade

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YayCookies wrote...

It's like a law here now that if you like the ending or agree with somone that likes the ending you are a troll. That is insane. BTW it is You're a troll not your


I don't think that's necessarily the case, AJ just gets called a troll a lot because trying to argue with him is completely inane. His condescending attitude really doesn't help either, and he wonders why people are so standoffish with him.

That said, why people call him that, and then proceed to keep responding to him blows my mind. What happened to 'Don't feed the trolls'?

#55
AJRimmsey

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mauro2222 wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...

do you feel "entitled" to an explaination ?

if so then you need to explain first where this entitlement comes from,to better judge why you are so sure you deserve the time it takes to explain ourselves to you.
or is this discussion board suddenly an enforced customer survey system.

just curious :whistle:


If they don't engage in discussion, this is a spam post and it deserves the "hate".
I don't start threads to say... I like Sheploo, because I like it. I say why I like it, and why I think he's the best... then I proceed to make comparisons with other people's thoughts and opinions.


if you pm the forum admin i am sure they will discuss with you the possibility to only have threads you approve of.

meanwhile its perfectly ok for people to simply say they enjoyed the game without having to nitpick every point they enjoyed.

nowhere does it state "please explain why you 1 - like the game or 2 - hate the game".

you are free to post threads about why you hate 1 or 2 here.



all this OP has done is start a thread to say he liked the game.

and is pounced on by the worst elements of the forum membership demanding this and that from him/her.

now..this is where you also call me a troll and flounce off stage right ;)

Modifié par AJRimmsey, 14 avril 2012 - 06:04 .


#56
Mr. Gogeta34

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Those who like the ending are cool with plot holes/gaps/inconsistencies... nothing wrong with that.

Some fans have lower standards than others...

#57
Kuari999

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AJ... they brought the topic up in a discussion board. What, should we all be clapping and saying YAY! Good for you, here's your cake and a pony! If you're going to bring up a topic in a place for discussion, you accept the good AND the bad or stay away. Do you REALLY think you could walk into a middle of a discussion, say something that goes against the views of the group of people you're approaching and NOT be asked to explain yourself? Be realistic here.  If you put yourself in that position, its your own doing when you're called on it.  This is a constant both in real life AND the internet.

EDIT: In fact, if you think people shouldn't be allowed to criticize those who like the ending, you shouldn't be allowed to criticize those that hate it.  Otherwise?  Its hypocrisy.

Modifié par Kuari999, 14 avril 2012 - 06:07 .


#58
Arsenic Touch

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YayCookies wrote...

It's like a law here now that if you like the ending or agree with somone that likes the ending you are a troll. That is insane.



If the shoe fits, wear it. Especially given the user that you are referencing is in fact a troll and has done nothing but try to antagonize anyone who has issues with the ending. So when you want to climb down off that horse, let us know.

Modifié par Arsenic Touch, 14 avril 2012 - 06:05 .


#59
AJRimmsey

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YayCookies wrote...

It's like a law here now that if you like the ending or agree with somone that likes the ending you are a troll. That is insane.




so true.


sorry,i think i just painted you with the troll target :D

#60
Mr. Gogeta34

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YayCookies wrote...

It's like a law here now that if you like the ending or agree with somone that likes the ending you are a troll. That is insane.



Not insane... it's just a proven fact at this point that the ending is plot broken and inconsistent.  If you're fine with that, your standards simply aren't as high.

For everyone else... there's mastercard.

#61
nikola8

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Kuari999 wrote...

AJRimmsey wrote...
hands up..who knew that was coming :D


Hard not to.  What else do you call someone who believes their viewpoint should be immune from criticism in all forms?  Well, there's a lot of words.  Troll is just the nice one.

YayCookies wrote...

It's like a law here now that if you
like the ending or agree with somone that likes the ending you are a
troll. That is insane. BTW it is You're a troll not your


I'm perfectly fine with people disagreeing with my views.  I am not fine in people believing that they should be immune from criticism while criticizing others.  Hypocritical trash like that is what really makes forums a pain in the ass.


Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion.  The OP liked the ending.  Many people on BSN didn't.  No one is wrong.  Like and dislike are subjective feelings.  

It is wrong, however, to say that the ending is bad OBJECTIVELY.  The fact is: one man's plothole is another man's open question.  So to say that the ending is wrong, period, is of itself is wrong.  People can like the ending, people can hate it, and people are free to discuss it.  But when I read threads where anti-ending people say that those who like the ending need to back it up and explain all of the "plotholes", I disagree.  Sure there are questions, but we haven't seen the Extended Cut yet, and I believe/hope that Bioware will explain everything there.  But people are allowed to like the ending.  And people are allowed to dislike it.  But everyone, regardless of viewpoint, should be civil about it.   

#62
DaylaLayne

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I did not like the ending myself. but i don't feel that I need to explain why. Maybe that is why i don't expect people (except my husband and ONE friend)to explain to me why they like it, but I would really like to know.

Also note I do not start treads about hating the ending then run away

Modifié par YayCookies, 14 avril 2012 - 06:18 .


#63
Rosey

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Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Those who like the ending are cool with plot holes/gaps/inconsistencies... nothing wrong with that.

Some fans have lower standards than others...


This. Do you see this? This statement above me pisses me off. Just because someone doesn't instantly loath something the way you did does by no means mean they have lower standards, or a lower iq, or a lower what ever it is that you've decided is the insult of the moment.

It is perfectly alright for someone to have liked the endings. Hell, knowing and loving and playing all three games since release -- I liked the ending.

Does that mean I agree with how they were presented? No. It means I didn't hate it. I liked what they were trying to portray. Mind you, it wasn't done very well and there are a lot of things that could and should have been done differently. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it.

Just because you don't agree with the OP doesn't give you the right to insult them for stating their opinion. It might not allign with your opinion, and they may not be able to articulate why they liked it well enough to satisfy you -- but then, nothing short of a rewrite would. So why ask them to explain in excruciating detail all the reason's they liked it? It obviously isn't going to change your mind about it.

Stop throwing bricks at anyone who might have a differing opinion then you. It isn't the end of the world.

#64
JBONE27

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AJRimmsey wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Lets play a game of list the plot holes

#1 How was everyone killed on the Citadel without damaging it.

#2 How does EMS affect the ending in the way it does? How does having more soldiers make a difference in the way they put it.

#3 When did Anderson dash for the beam?

#4 How did Kohaku know you were alive? How did he know it was you on the Crucible? Why wouldn't he have thought it was Anderson?

#5 They were building the beacon in London before there was any reason to believe the Citadel would be brought to Earth. Why? What purpose did linking London and the Citadel have in the first place? What the hell were the Reapers planning?

#6 Control... why does control destroy your body? Who is in control? Did you become one with the Reapers? But since when were the Reapers a hive mind? Sure there are many minds in each Reaper, but what happened? Was Shepard's personality spread throughout the Reapers similar to what happened with Legion? Its a possible explanation I suppose, but overall? It makes no sense. I mean, if you want a Space Jesus ending? I'd say that is it.

#7 Synthesis... how does an energy pulse change people into synthetic-hybrids? Nanobots could maybe do it, but an energy pulse? Stretches rational suspension of disbelief to its limits.

#8 Destroy... How does it pick out between regular tech and synthetics? How is it possible for Shepard to survive it when he's pretty much told it will kill him. In fact this and Synthesis are pretty much the only ones that even hint at death. So how does that work? More importantly, how does having a bigger fleet make the difference between destroying the universe and only destroying synthetics? In fact, why does one ending destroy buildings but leaves people completely unharmed.

#9 The Normandy... that's all that needs to be said. STRAIGHT out of nowhere and comes off as Joker being a damned coward. It literally seemed thrown in just for the sake of symbolism rather than sense.

#10 Starchild... why does he look like that boy? Yes, ok, symbolism. I love symbolism... but why does he look like that boy? No seriously, why? If I saw something like that, I'd assume that they were reading my mind and trying to guilt trip and manipulate me, otherwise they better have a damned good explanation. I'm not going to get into his logic because, well... robot revolutions are always based on faulty logic.

------

I'm glad you liked the ending, but it was far from a well-written one. Maybe the Extended Cut will fix this, maybe not. Doesn't change that it shouldn't have been necessary in the first place though.


1 - radiation
2 - space battle
3 - behind you..or before you as blast propelled him
4 - sensors
5 - they chose london for the scenery
6 - same way harbinger did
7 - radiation mutates and its energy
8 - neutron radiation destroys bio but not synthetic matter
9 - joker never once goes on away missions...coward ?
10 - you answered your own question


1- Radiation would also destroy the machinery and probably the keeper, but they are both fine.  Not to mention the Citidel most likely has radiation shields.
2- Yeah, that question was pretty weak, although it shouldn't affect the choices you get.
3- He does say he's behind you, but if you turn aroun he's not there, in fact no matter where you look he can't be seen.
4- What sensors?  There were no sensors mentioned in any of the games except at the entrence (which looked nothing like where you were), and the Normady's airlock (which it obviously is not.
5- So, it did turn you into a Reaper?  That's a bit... crap, isn't it?
6- Which has nothing to do with the story.  They could have easily waited to mention London until they needed it for the story.
7-   Uh huh, you do realize that most radiation caused mutations are cancer right... not to mention it makes no sense for it to affect the entire galaxy.
8-  So, it does just the opposite of what it does in real life.  That's... well insanly idiotic comes to mind.
9-  Apparently you missed the part where Joker had Vrolik Syndrome.  To quote Joker in Mass Effect 2, "What was I supposed to do, break my arm at them?"  That's not cowardice, it's choosing not to be a stupid dead weight.  Also, at every other moment he was flying towards the battle (Ilos, Battle of the Citidel, Collector Ship, Collector Base, Rannoc, and the battle of Earth), all of a sudden he's flying away from the battle.  How is that not out of character?
10- Yeah, he kind of did.

I've got a few more plot holes.
1.  How are you communicating with Anderson and Hackett without any kind of working radio?
2.  How did Anderson reach the control room before you, when there was absolutely no sign of any "the dark hallway," that he mentioned.
3.  How did the Keeper and all of the Equipment Survive.
4.  How did TIM appear out of no where?
5.  Why didn't Anderson push the button instead of reasoning with you?
6.  How did TIM get the ability to control people?
7.  Why am I shooting at the pipe?
8.  Why am I walking towards the explosion?
9.  Why did the Reapers not destroy the Citidel when security was laxed?
10.  Why move the Citidel to Earth instead of to the dark zone?
11.  How did the Mass Relay Explosion not kill everything?
12.  Why do all of the endings look the same with different colors?
13.  Why introduce a new character 5 mintues before the ending when every writting class, every good writer, and every single expert on writing says that's a terrible idea?
14.  Why had a deus ex machina when a giant fight between the forces you've gathered and the Reapers would be so much more satisfying for most people?
15.  Why do Shepard's eyes turn into those blue bullseye things like TIM's unless you choose destruction?

#65
Kuari999

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nikola8 wrote...
Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion.  The OP liked the ending.  Many people on BSN didn't.  No one is wrong.  Like and dislike are subjective feelings.  

It is wrong, however, to say that the ending is bad OBJECTIVELY.  The fact is: one man's plothole is another man's open question.  So to say that the ending is wrong, period, is of itself is wrong.  People can like the ending, people can hate it, and people are free to discuss it.  But when I read threads where anti-ending people say that those who like the ending need to back it up and explain all of the "plotholes", I disagree.  Sure there are questions, but we haven't seen the Extended Cut yet, and I believe/hope that Bioware will explain everything there.  But people are allowed to like the ending.  And people are allowed to dislike it.  But everyone, regardless of viewpoint, should be civil about it.   


Except that if we're expected to explain our reasons, others need to explain theirs.  There is no way around it.  Anything else is hypocrisy, pure and simple.  And frankly?  Plot holes are widely considered writing flaws.  Some people forgive them easily, but its a pretty standard rule to avoid them.  Not to mention they said there WOULDN'T be any such open questions, so that means they for some reason expected them to stand on their own in terms of explanation.  They VERY clearly did not meet that and that's shown by the fact that people have to fill in the blanks without having anything that can back up such filling in.  Hell, even open questions are explained to an extent.  Ever read "The Lady and the Tiger"?  Its pretty much the definition of an open ended story.  Leaving something open ended is not the same as completely unexplained, and frankly, from an objective standpoint, it falls in the latter as there is nothing to base the answers to the questions off of.

YayCookies wrote...

I did not ending myself. but i don't
feel that I need to explain why. Maybe that is why i don't expect people
(except my husband and ONE friend)to explain to me why they like it,
but I would really like to know.

Also note I do not start treads about hating the ending then run away


See, way I am is if you want to discuss something, you need to be prepared to explain yourself, otherwise one shouldn't be talking about the topic.  If they aren't going to share their full opinion in detail, there is nothing to talk about.  It becomes "I liked it" "I hated it" and nothing else.  Nothing intellectually stimulating.

Modifié par Kuari999, 14 avril 2012 - 06:19 .


#66
FlashedMyDrive

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Whether or not you liked the ending usually depends on how much you care about plot sensability and how analytical you are. Some people just except inconsistencies better than others, or at least don't notice them. :shrug:

Couldn't tell you if that is a good or bad thing.

Modifié par FlashedMyDrive, 14 avril 2012 - 06:20 .


#67
AJRimmsey

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JBONE27 wrote...

*lots of questions*


if i answer you might leap down my throat

i did that once and one reply later "your a troll"


i`ll just say use your imagination and insert any answers you like,then we are both happy ;)

#68
JBONE27

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AJRimmsey wrote...

JBONE27 wrote...

*lots of questions*


if i answer you might leap down my throat

i did that once and one reply later "your a troll"


i`ll just say use your imagination and insert any answers you like,then we are both happy ;)


I'm pointing out how flawed most of your corrections are.  How is that jumping down your throat? I'm not trolling, I'm legitimately asking questions.

#69
Kuari999

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JBONE27 wrote...
I'm pointing out how flawed most of your corrections are.  How is that jumping down your throat? I'm not trolling, I'm legitimately asking questions.


In case you haven't noticed from the rest of his answers, going against anyone's opinion is jumping down their throat to him...  That's pretty much been his response to anyone who has done that in this thread.

#70
andrea yox

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i think ou guys miss the point....ME wasn't "just a game" it was a "story", like the ones you read in books you know? and if a story makes no sense you can't be ok with it, at least if you have a bit of respect for your brain.

#71
Kuari999

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andrea yox wrote...

i think ou guys miss the point....ME wasn't "just a game" it was a "story", like the ones you read in books you know? and if a story makes no sense you can't be ok with it, at least if you have a bit of respect for your brain.


See, that's what I think the biggest problem in discussing games is.  There are people who believe they should be free of criticism, that anyone who criticises them has no life, but I don't see it as being different from any other hobby, many of which its socially acceptable to yell and scream about.  Its annoying as hell that people are so set on believing that kind of garbage, because that's literally what it is.  Garbage thinking.  Shortsighted and lacking in any sort of intelligence.

#72
Mr. Gogeta34

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Gilliy wrote...

This. Do you see this? This statement above me pisses me off. Just because someone doesn't instantly loath something the way you did does by no means mean they have lower standards, or a lower iq, or a lower what ever it is that you've decided is the insult of the moment.

It is perfectly alright for someone to have liked the endings. Hell, knowing and loving and playing all three games since release -- I liked the ending.

Does that mean I agree with how they were presented? No. It means I didn't hate it. I liked what they were trying to portray. Mind you, it wasn't done very well and there are a lot of things that could and should have been done differently. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it.

Just because you don't agree with the OP doesn't give you the right to insult them for stating their opinion. It might not allign with your opinion, and they may not be able to articulate why they liked it well enough to satisfy you -- but then, nothing short of a rewrite would. So why ask them to explain in excruciating detail all the reason's they liked it? It obviously isn't going to change your mind about it.

Stop throwing bricks at anyone who might have a differing opinion then you. It isn't the end of the world.


Look if you liked the ending, fine and that's great.  But the plot holes/plot gaps/inconsistencies are there.  So you're either okay with them (lower standards... ie:  tolerance for what's acceptable)... or you aren't aware of them (just wasn't paying as much attention).  The level with which you payed attention has nothing to do with your IQ or some other negative implication you seem to be conjuring up.

No need to get mad about it.Image IPB  Be happy that you enjoyed the ending while the others hold their own opinions... we've been discussing them for a long time.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 14 avril 2012 - 06:35 .


#73
AJRimmsey

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JBONE27 wrote...

I've got a few more plot holes.
1.  How are you communicating with Anderson and Hackett without any kind of working radio?
2.  How did Anderson reach the control room before you, when there was absolutely no sign of any "the dark hallway," that he mentioned.
3.  How did the Keeper and all of the Equipment Survive.
4.  How did TIM appear out of no where?
5.  Why didn't Anderson push the button instead of reasoning with you?
6.  How did TIM get the ability to control people?
7.  Why am I shooting at the pipe?
8.  Why am I walking towards the explosion?
9.  Why did the Reapers not destroy the Citidel when security was laxed?
10.  Why move the Citidel to Earth instead of to the dark zone?
11.  How did the Mass Relay Explosion not kill everything?
12.  Why do all of the endings look the same with different colors?
13.  Why introduce a new character 5 mintues before the ending when every writting class, every good writer, and every single expert on writing says that's a terrible idea?
14.  Why had a deus ex machina when a giant fight between the forces you've gathered and the Reapers would be so much more satisfying for most people?
15.  Why do Shepard's eyes turn into those blue bullseye things like TIM's unless you choose destruction?


these are JUST my opinions

1 - arm biotic tool
2 - beamed to 2 different locations his was closer
3 - it was on the citadel in a location shielded
4 - he got there first
5 - pointless to go there if he did,no closure
6 - he was indoctrinated/semi huskified
7 - to cause a critical failure
8 - heros do that
9 - why not destroy it in ME 1
10 - ME 3 save the earth
11 - wasnt powerful enough
12 - they dont to me
13 - writers perogative
14 - a FPS not a rts
15 - control theory

#74
nikola8

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Kuari999 wrote...

nikola8 wrote...
Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion.  The OP liked the ending.  Many people on BSN didn't.  No one is wrong.  Like and dislike are subjective feelings.  

It is wrong, however, to say that the ending is bad OBJECTIVELY.  The fact is: one man's plothole is another man's open question.  So to say that the ending is wrong, period, is of itself is wrong.  People can like the ending, people can hate it, and people are free to discuss it.  But when I read threads where anti-ending people say that those who like the ending need to back it up and explain all of the "plotholes", I disagree.  Sure there are questions, but we haven't seen the Extended Cut yet, and I believe/hope that Bioware will explain everything there.  But people are allowed to like the ending.  And people are allowed to dislike it.  But everyone, regardless of viewpoint, should be civil about it.   


Except that if we're expected to explain our reasons, others need to explain theirs.  There is no way around it.  Anything else is hypocrisy, pure and simple.  And frankly?  Plot holes are widely considered writing flaws.  Some people forgive them easily, but its a pretty standard rule to avoid them.  Not to mention they said there WOULDN'T be any such open questions, so that means they for some reason expected them to stand on their own in terms of explanation.  They VERY clearly did not meet that and that's shown by the fact that people have to fill in the blanks without having anything that can back up such filling in.  Hell, even open questions are explained to an extent.  Ever read "The Lady and the Tiger"?  Its pretty much the definition of an open ended story.  Leaving something open ended is not the same as completely unexplained, and frankly, from an objective standpoint, it falls in the latter as there is nothing to base the answers to the questions off of.

... Edit, added the following edit

See, way I am is if you want to discuss something, you need to be prepared to explain yourself, otherwise one shouldn't be talking about the topic.  If they aren't going to share their full opinion in detail, there is nothing to talk about.  It becomes "I liked it" "I hated it" and nothing else.  Nothing intellectually stimulating. 


I don't expect you to explain why you dislike it (I've read the reasons for hating the endings- everything from plotholes to failed promises to no blue children).  But if someone tells me they dislike the ending, I say, "ok".  I don't say, "tell me in 1500 words why you dislike it".  

Just a note: unexplained does not equal plothole.  They said clearly that they would wrap up Shepard's story, not the ME universe.  If they explained EVERYTHING, they wouldn't have much to go on for spinoff games/books/comic books, etc.  I am the first to say that they ending doesn't explain everything.  But I won't say that it is a plot hole, because that would imply oversight on Bioware's part.  I refuse to believe Bioware released the game then went, "oh crap, we accidentally did such and such (avoiding spoilers)".  I give them more credit than that.  Considering the developers said have said that the final dialogue with a certain controversial character (avoiding spoilers) originally contained dialogue that explained everything, but that it was cut to feature only "necessary" dialogue to Shepard, it is obvious that they wanted some ambiguity to exist.  While we as fans may disagree with the ending dialogue being edited, it was a design choice by Bioware.  But to say that the ending is riddled with plotholes is a veiled way of saying Bioware doesn't know what they're doing.  Most of the Bioware developers played between 70-150 playthroughs to test the game before it was released.  I believe they know exactly what they're doing, and they did wrap up Shepard's story, but little else.  Now, due to fan demand, they are releasing more answers.  I didn't feel the ending needed to be changed and/or augmented, but I'm very excited for the 'Extended Cut' because it will provide more answers to the ending.

And many will disagree with me, but that doesn't make me wrong, and it doesn't make the people who disagree with me wrong.

Edit: commenting on the added quoted post: There is nothing wrong with a discussion (I've had some great ones here on BSN with very civil people).  However, when people start attacking each other over the ending, the "intellectual stimulation" fails.  I've heard pro-ending advocates imply that anti-ending people are unintelligent because they don't grasp the "deeper plotlines", and I've heard anti-ending people imply that pro-ending people must be unintelligent for "failing to see the numerous plotholes".   Neither of that is productive.  

Modifié par nikola8, 14 avril 2012 - 06:44 .


#75
DukeOfNukes

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I actually was more confused by the ending than anything. Then I came online to try to get some answers...and upon realizing that all the endings were basically the same, I started to get mad.

Then when BioWare and IGN and other media sites started ACTIVELY INSULTING me for not falling in love with their vision, I became LIVID. ABSOLUTELY absurd...Casey Hudson should be forced to make a public apology...not for the ending, but for his statement that we're all to dense to understand their artistic vision...like we're some kind of simpletons who don't realize they threw this together during the final months of production, rather than spending 5 years planning it out like they claim.

In short...the ending wasn't really what made me upset...it was BioWare's response to the criticism.