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Why 'Writer's pets' hurt, and ultimately damage Mass Effect 3


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#251
Aeowyn

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Barquiel wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

The one with a comic series, another comic, a toy, an entire DLC built around her and her romance, and a major role in two of the games. Compared to Garrus who has always just kind of been there and never had a major impact on the plot.


According to several interviews, they made LOTSB because of fan demand...and not because Casey Hudson or Mac Walters love Liara (Jack is Casey Hudson's favorite characters as revealed in the CE Strat guide, and Mac Walters favorites are TIM and Aria). Garrus (who has a comic and a toy as well) is also a squadmate in all three games because of fan demand. They're both Shepard's canon buddys. I really don't see the difference. And every RPG has characters who are more important to the plot than others. Do you think Morrigan or Bastila were writer's pets?


Since when does Garrus have his own comic?

#252
Jassu1979

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I appreciate this OP, even though I do not share most of the sentiments expressed therein.

I do not agree that the socially awkward asari scientist who's barely considered an adult in her own culture is poorly written or bland. Not exactly a feisty heroine, but those are a dime a dozen in this game, anyway. We hardly need another Ashley/Tali/Miranda. I adored her for her innocence, and was almost pained to see her develop all that mental scarring in the fallout of Shepard's death in ME2.

Likewise, Cerberus was hardly inconsequential cannon fodder in ME1: they were a terrorist organization conducting terrible experiments in the name of "humanity first". Even then, they were hardly inconsequential, as they could even abduct and kill an admiral without much effort. If anything, it was weird to see them turn into anti- or semi-heroes in ME2.

But yes, Kai Leng felt extremely misplaced and was poorly introduced. I suspect that we may actually owe his presence to the fanbase, though: all those people who gobble up the novels were most likely demanding that the characters from these books HAD to make an appearance in the final installment, as they were a part of the game's wider canon.

On a similar note, I feel that the biggest problem here isn't so much specific characters (as most of them are well-written or at the very least tolerable, IMO), but pieces of the plot.
In every creative writing class, one of the first things you're told is: "Kill your favourites", meaning that one line that struck you as utterly brilliant, that one description where you feel that you've totally nailed it, that one sideline that you absolutely have to keep in even though it's irrelevant to the main plot. In most cases, it turns out that these really do not fit smoothly into the rest of the work, and are more of a stumbling block than an asset.

I think that this is what happened with the ending (provided that we are to take it at face value) - ESPECIALLY when the rumours about two writers soloing this part without peer review are accurate.
On top of all its other faults, the star child ending just felt like it was very clumsily grafted on to the rest of the game, never really meshing with the rest of the writing.

#253
Guest_Sparatus_*

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Aeowyn wrote...

Since when does Garrus have his own comic?


Garrus is getting a comic in that Homeworld series. Along with Liara, Tali, and Vega. It hasn't been offically announced to my knowledge, but it was leaked on the artist's DA account.

Modifié par Sparatus, 14 avril 2012 - 08:38 .


#254
gearseffect

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Xion66 wrote...

 So, after spending a few moments clearing my head of the whole ending/DLC debacle i've finally decided to tackle something that transcends the Mass Effect 3 ending, in fact this is something that while playing the game broke the intense and emotional rollercoaster provided by the story and gameplay, the moments I felt were a bit off but to which I suspended my disbelief putting my trust in the game's writers, ultimately being disappointed.

To me the biggest problem with Mass Effect 3 is not only the ending, it's the whole little obelisks that feel forced, that seemed to try and force you to build connections or are treated with much more input/fleshed out than the average reader/player would ever really want to know or know about.

These writer's pets, or creator's favourites are ultimately ME3's downfall, because they are present at the most glaring moments where the game is at fault, they are elements that feel alien to a highly global variable and interactive experience, and in a character-driven storyline, they are translated into characters, which I'll procceed to point out.

Nº1 Kai Leng, the antagonist of the books and what-not, Kai Leng is highly alien to anyone with less than a passing interest in anything but the games, his sudden importance in the game without any in-game foreshadowing is just a total faux pas, and yet here he is, awkwardly introduced and injected into highly climatic moments of the storyline, when he should have been nothing more than a cameo, in the most emotionally charged moments, and revelation/confrontation situations he is a placeholder for actual villains that the player would want to face in those determined moments.

They try to make you care via established well-liked characters like Anderson, that he is a big deal and relevant, when the player has no emotional invesment in you, they kill off an established well liked-character just to try and give him an actual role, the problem is coming to the closing chapters of a story a.k.a ME3, leaves little room for the introduction of new antagonists that have to compete with well-established threats, even more so, if the only reason they exist is to try and take the spotlight, Kai Leng fails at any of those and players love to hate him not because he's just that kind of character like Loghain in DA, but because he is a poor attempt at trying to pull heartstrings from a guy we're told we should care about.

Add to that he feels awfully misplaced design-wise in the game, and even in the universe's logic. A cyber-ninja fits Ninja Gaiden, it fits Metal Gear Solid, but Mass Effect? Jesus even Kasumi was eh at first, but ninja's?

Nº2 Liara T'soni  Liara is the definition of a writer's pet. She was incredibly awkward/blank slated personality wise in ME1, her reedeming qualites as a character were her plot-device needs and the fact she is easily the most upfront LI, however in ME2 we see this clear attempt at trying to inject some relevance into her character, so we witness a contrived twist to make her likeable, in a semi-renegade vigilante type of model that completely dismisses what little personality she has, while tying her once again to the plot for no other reason but to make her relevant.

But I can deal, I mean only one more character to like right? Well then comes ME3, where she suddenly takes another sidestep in personality, and loses the whole vigilante/pseudo-renegade personality and becomes a much more prevalent plot device, as well as the most important confident for Shepard, not your LI's not even your best squadmates, it's Liara who gets all the importat introspective and confessions from Shepard, no matter what, you are forced into acting like you share the deepest connection to Liara, when you may even not like her, adding to this you share with her some of the most intimate/emotionally moving moments of the game when in some cases you barely can have a chit-chat with your LI's (poor ME2 romancers)

Liara serves as a plot device and as Shepard's main pillar of strength wether you like it or not, you will get thrown into moving speeches, heartfelt moments, and even almost romantic scenes when you might not even romance her, if Bioware thinks about a cannon LI you can sure as hell be certain it's Liara, I mean even if I threw the black box at her face she'd still want me to put all my memories inside.

Nº3 The Illusive Man/Cerberus  Remember in ME1 who Cerberus was? A bunch of colour-swapped mooks that you ran over for quick XP, then remember when ME2 rolled in and all of a sudden they were this big shadow corp, with an anti-Shepard leader, and apparently a big ****ing deal even though they just seemed like amateur mad scientists?

I enjoy TIM, I really do, I think he invokes the best and worse of mankind in one character, as well as being the perfect counter-point to Shepard, and retaining an antagonist, mysterious facade. Well, I guess Bioware thought the same because the game that should have been about the Reapers sounded more like TIM & the other guys who show up at the end.

Not only was the already Cerberus has extensive funding and are totally badass plot kind of thin back in the end of ME2, ME3 comes around and stretches and procceeds to break the fine line between suspension of disbelief for narrative purposes to just throw logic out of the airlock.

Not only does TIM's never ending amount of resources expand, it's also passed on that they can apparently be a shadow organization that cares for only one race, but still fight off all galactic civilizations, with an elite army while every project they conduct blows in their faces time after time, and still can find a way to have tactical strikes, and be one step ahead of you, I know the man is loaded but please don't try and convince me it's not ridiculous that he can afford and get that many mooks specially after losing so many assets.

Lastly, TIM completely overshadows the series main antagonist, just because he is needed to fill in and add content between all of the major plot points diminishing his uniqueness as a character, and reaching the point of being a free-narrative-flow-maintainer card. His and Cerberus role in ME3 should have been smaller but on the large scale of things bigger, people wanted more TIM, but this way he ended up being banalized, and with that much of his mystique.

He's also responsible for introducing Kai Leng to ME3, so -1 point.


Nº4 Earth Kid/Catalawsgeuywrgz Even before the game came out there was a big issue that people took with the leaks of the ME3's plot, there was this kid that acted as a plot device that for the first time made Shepard doubt himself/herself, and apparently traumatizing  her/him. This after being a war hero watching team members die, people he cared for getting shafted, and dying. It's this one kid that we are spoon fed through an entire game to try and justify Shepard's introspective self-doubt.

Not possibly killing your comrade on Virmire, sacrificing another one, not even seeing what the Collectors did, we are shoved various times during ME3 that it's this kid that made Shepard snap, now this is just ridiculous.
The whole introduction of the character before the twist was already awkward and alien, the dream sequences feel dettached from the narrative-style and the dimensions of the story and Shepard as a character, plus the writing feels really subpar in those moments as well as way too much leaning towards the melodromatic.

There's this scene that was cut from ME3 where Shepard while awaiting trials deals with his own mortality and what it meant to be revived, and how he felt about who he/she was, this was great writing this could flesh out the main character while allowing for a dialogue between the character (avatar with specific personality traits) and his conscious (the morality/personality of the character a.k.a) the player, this could have provided all the justification for self-doubt that Shepard feels upon failure, and could have worked in so many ways for scenes with LI's or even Joker after Thessia, but the writer's wanted the kid so they shoved him in, no matter how tacked on he felt, no matter how counter-flow he was.


Nº5 The Ending  Oh What a Twist, I went there.  No matter how much I harp on the different characters above, there's a bigger culprit in all of this mess, the true definition of a writer's pet something that only someone who wrote it and a few others can relate to, that break all narrative and theme logic of a trilogy and a story and decide at the last end that the ending for everyone's journey is something overrated, an ending to their story and a personal take on a very global moment of the game takes a whole personal and 'I want this ending to say: I own this story, I own you' route.

No matter it's redeeming values as writing (if it has any) the fact is, this ending is not the logical end to the story, it's not even the logical continuity of the 30 seconds prior, it isn't relatable, it's consequences are unforseeable and speculative, it's not open-ended it's speculation through omission and continuity/plot flaws, it is something highly cerebral and personal when it should have been something highly relatable and emotional, and that kind of ending is something only someone set on having it because it's how they want can like, something only people that want a twist with a dark and gritty atmosphere, this is the vision of forced bittersweetness, you clearly see the writer's intentions it breaks immersion to have these many things happening just because, and that's why it fails, it overrides player input and makes it an entity outside of the reader's journey.

Thank you for your time.


Ha My Hat goes off to you bro,
On Kai Leng
I'd like to mention on Kia Leng (give I've read the books) I was a huge fan of his in Retribution then in Deception well that is a big whacky Harbinger of distruction to come to ME. Any way in ME3 it Kai Leng was the most lame @ss excuss of a character and I was completly dissapointed in him. He could have been so much cooler if BW would have kept him the shadow assianin messing up things for Cerberus goals and doing so with little to no resources and funding like he  was known for in the book.


On Liara
And Liara, man oh man, I had been a Liara defender until I played ME3, and now I can't stand the sight of her, and anyone who has a Liara user pic or banner who tries to put down any other possible LI and say it should not be, well I just ignor them. There stand point means nothing if they act and say stuff well displaying Liara. In ME2 I started to wonder what I had liked about Liara, in ME3 I came to my senses and was like yep she's never the same characrter and I can't ignor her being a favorite anymore. In fact I can't stand her now.

When she was hiding outside my bathroom when I came out I was like WTF? Don't you know how to knock or have you never heard of personal space.

Oh and I think that it's going to be hard for any one who had a different LI other than Liara to even look at Liara?

On Cerberus/TIM
They get all their funding and resources from the army of indoctrinated hamans, oh wait sorry that still don't explain how they got that, even if you read Retrubution and Deception you be puzzled. Um they got the funding from Miranda's dad/ oh well wait if that's the case then dang it now why didn't BW give Miranda fans more? It would make perfect sense and be a great way to give them some more time. (I am not a big fan of Miranda but even I didn't like what they did to her, and I think all the ME2 exlusive LI's got sh!t on big time, Thane, Miranda, Jacob, Samara, Jack, Kelly, )
Oh wait that's right Harbinger just used Cerberus to do his work and thats how they got the resources oh.... wait that's a plot hole there too, because Reapers wipped out the indoctrinated fac. because they didn't like someone doing that stuff. Oh and Harbinger why didn't he do more taunting and talking? TIM took Harbingers role of talking to Shepard and p1ssing him off.

#255
shodiswe

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Xion66 wrote...

 So, after spending a few moments clearing my head of the whole ending/DLC debacle i've finally decided to tackle something that transcends the Mass Effect 3 ending, in fact this is something that while playing the game broke the intense and emotional rollercoaster provided by the story and gameplay, the moments I felt were a bit off but to which I suspended my disbelief putting my trust in the game's writers, ultimately being disappointed.

To me the biggest problem with Mass Effect 3 is not only the ending, it's the whole little obelisks that feel forced, that seemed to try and force you to build connections or are treated with much more input/fleshed out than the average reader/player would ever really want to know or know about.

These writer's pets, or creator's favourites are ultimately ME3's downfall, because they are present at the most glaring moments where the game is at fault, they are elements that feel alien to a highly global variable and interactive experience, and in a character-driven storyline, they are translated into characters, which I'll procceed to point out.

Nº1 Kai Leng, the antagonist of the books and what-not, Kai Leng is highly alien to anyone with less than a passing interest in anything but the games, his sudden importance in the game without any in-game foreshadowing is just a total faux pas, and yet here he is, awkwardly introduced and injected into highly climatic moments of the storyline, when he should have been nothing more than a cameo, in the most emotionally charged moments, and revelation/confrontation situations he is a placeholder for actual villains that the player would want to face in those determined moments.

They try to make you care via established well-liked characters like Anderson, that he is a big deal and relevant, when the player has no emotional invesment in you, they kill off an established well liked-character just to try and give him an actual role, the problem is coming to the closing chapters of a story a.k.a ME3, leaves little room for the introduction of new antagonists that have to compete with well-established threats, even more so, if the only reason they exist is to try and take the spotlight, Kai Leng fails at any of those and players love to hate him not because he's just that kind of character like Loghain in DA, but because he is a poor attempt at trying to pull heartstrings from a guy we're told we should care about.

Add to that he feels awfully misplaced design-wise in the game, and even in the universe's logic. A cyber-ninja fits Ninja Gaiden, it fits Metal Gear Solid, but Mass Effect? Jesus even Kasumi was eh at first, but ninja's?

Nº2 Liara T'soni  Liara is the definition of a writer's pet. She was incredibly awkward/blank slated personality wise in ME1, her reedeming qualites as a character were her plot-device needs and the fact she is easily the most upfront LI, however in ME2 we see this clear attempt at trying to inject some relevance into her character, so we witness a contrived twist to make her likeable, in a semi-renegade vigilante type of model that completely dismisses what little personality she has, while tying her once again to the plot for no other reason but to make her relevant.

But I can deal, I mean only one more character to like right? Well then comes ME3, where she suddenly takes another sidestep in personality, and loses the whole vigilante/pseudo-renegade personality and becomes a much more prevalent plot device, as well as the most important confident for Shepard, not your LI's not even your best squadmates, it's Liara who gets all the importat introspective and confessions from Shepard, no matter what, you are forced into acting like you share the deepest connection to Liara, when you may even not like her, adding to this you share with her some of the most intimate/emotionally moving moments of the game when in some cases you barely can have a chit-chat with your LI's (poor ME2 romancers)

Liara serves as a plot device and as Shepard's main pillar of strength wether you like it or not, you will get thrown into moving speeches, heartfelt moments, and even almost romantic scenes when you might not even romance her, if Bioware thinks about a cannon LI you can sure as hell be certain it's Liara, I mean even if I threw the black box at her face she'd still want me to put all my memories inside.

Nº3 The Illusive Man/Cerberus  Remember in ME1 who Cerberus was? A bunch of colour-swapped mooks that you ran over for quick XP, then remember when ME2 rolled in and all of a sudden they were this big shadow corp, with an anti-Shepard leader, and apparently a big ****ing deal even though they just seemed like amateur mad scientists?

I enjoy TIM, I really do, I think he invokes the best and worse of mankind in one character, as well as being the perfect counter-point to Shepard, and retaining an antagonist, mysterious facade. Well, I guess Bioware thought the same because the game that should have been about the Reapers sounded more like TIM & the other guys who show up at the end.

Not only was the already Cerberus has extensive funding and are totally badass plot kind of thin back in the end of ME2, ME3 comes around and stretches and procceeds to break the fine line between suspension of disbelief for narrative purposes to just throw logic out of the airlock.

Not only does TIM's never ending amount of resources expand, it's also passed on that they can apparently be a shadow organization that cares for only one race, but still fight off all galactic civilizations, with an elite army while every project they conduct blows in their faces time after time, and still can find a way to have tactical strikes, and be one step ahead of you, I know the man is loaded but please don't try and convince me it's not ridiculous that he can afford and get that many mooks specially after losing so many assets.

Lastly, TIM completely overshadows the series main antagonist, just because he is needed to fill in and add content between all of the major plot points diminishing his uniqueness as a character, and reaching the point of being a free-narrative-flow-maintainer card. His and Cerberus role in ME3 should have been smaller but on the large scale of things bigger, people wanted more TIM, but this way he ended up being banalized, and with that much of his mystique.

He's also responsible for introducing Kai Leng to ME3, so -1 point.


Nº4 Earth Kid/Catalawsgeuywrgz Even before the game came out there was a big issue that people took with the leaks of the ME3's plot, there was this kid that acted as a plot device that for the first time made Shepard doubt himself/herself, and apparently traumatizing  her/him. This after being a war hero watching team members die, people he cared for getting shafted, and dying. It's this one kid that we are spoon fed through an entire game to try and justify Shepard's introspective self-doubt.

Not possibly killing your comrade on Virmire, sacrificing another one, not even seeing what the Collectors did, we are shoved various times during ME3 that it's this kid that made Shepard snap, now this is just ridiculous.
The whole introduction of the character before the twist was already awkward and alien, the dream sequences feel dettached from the narrative-style and the dimensions of the story and Shepard as a character, plus the writing feels really subpar in those moments as well as way too much leaning towards the melodromatic.

There's this scene that was cut from ME3 where Shepard while awaiting trials deals with his own mortality and what it meant to be revived, and how he felt about who he/she was, this was great writing this could flesh out the main character while allowing for a dialogue between the character (avatar with specific personality traits) and his conscious (the morality/personality of the character a.k.a) the player, this could have provided all the justification for self-doubt that Shepard feels upon failure, and could have worked in so many ways for scenes with LI's or even Joker after Thessia, but the writer's wanted the kid so they shoved him in, no matter how tacked on he felt, no matter how counter-flow he was.


Nº5 The Ending  Oh What a Twist, I went there.  No matter how much I harp on the different characters above, there's a bigger culprit in all of this mess, the true definition of a writer's pet something that only someone who wrote it and a few others can relate to, that break all narrative and theme logic of a trilogy and a story and decide at the last end that the ending for everyone's journey is something overrated, an ending to their story and a personal take on a very global moment of the game takes a whole personal and 'I want this ending to say: I own this story, I own you' route.

No matter it's redeeming values as writing (if it has any) the fact is, this ending is not the logical end to the story, it's not even the logical continuity of the 30 seconds prior, it isn't relatable, it's consequences are unforseeable and speculative, it's not open-ended it's speculation through omission and continuity/plot flaws, it is something highly cerebral and personal when it should have been something highly relatable and emotional, and that kind of ending is something only someone set on having it because it's how they want can like, something only people that want a twist with a dark and gritty atmosphere, this is the vision of forced bittersweetness, you clearly see the writer's intentions it breaks immersion to have these many things happening just because, and that's why it fails, it overrides player input and makes it an entity outside of the reader's journey.

Thank you for your time.


I havn't got any real problems with Liara, sure she wasn't like I expected in ME2, but then again all the killing and danger and crazy things she had gone through.. It's only natural that she looses her innosence. I can't see how anyone can remain a shy uncertain kid after all that. Least she didn't loose her mind completely.

Kai Lang.... I didn't mind, he was TIM's replacement for Shepard, yet he doesn't seem entirerly convinced hes a better fighter than Shepard, all he had to say when Kai Lang was trying to play though about his chances was, we will see. and didn't look like he belived that.

As for TIM and his resources and manpower... In the game you can see that they got a fast way of taking controll over people, called integration, a kind of indoctrination. If they need money and resources they indoctrinate a wealthy bussiness owner, Human, Volus, Asari, who ever has what they need.. Nearly unlimited resources. As for troops they attack colonies and turns civilions into shocktroops, guardians, engineers what ever they need, imprinting fighting skills into people who has never held a gun before. Very disturbing but efficient. Not unlike how the reapers create husks, they just don't go quite as far in the conversion. In the cerberus base you can see one of their doctors/scientists beign concerned about the possibility of the Reapers taking controll of their troops.
Eventualy TIM goes through a procedure like that just before you attack his base, beliving it will allow him to control the reapers, the end result is that the Reapers control over him just got even stronger with the new implants.

TIM makes sense, I can accept it, Liara is acceptable, I actualy liked Liara. Kai Lang... I didnt mind about Kai Lang one way or another, Thanes death was fair and a good ending, remember Thane was supposed to be dead already according to the doctors.. I do think Team Shepard should have done more to help out though. Could be that they were too busy guarding the councilor ensuring that the assassin didn't jump him in the turmoil. They probably belived Thane stood a better chance than he did considering he was dying and told you he was having problems running due to his condition.

The kid on earth was ok, however the dreams I must admit were a little less interesting, even with the back chatter and remembering past events from whispers.
I can see what the writers want to accomplish and I think the idea is good but I coudl have done with out those dream sequences imo. Shepard in his bed with dreamlike nightmare voices would have been enough for people to get it.
Running in slowmotion wasn't realy entertaining, especialy on a replay.

The end mission on earth seemed like it needed more, or maybe a distraction mission before the final assault to lure the reapers forces away from london, go in stealthed cause some problems else where  to clear a path, maybe sabotage reaper positions... Or maybe make the rest of the crew more active in the push for the beam like with the collector base, and seeing your war assets at work, maybe a few decisions along the way or a word in the overall planning. More over head air battles maybe since this is the biggest battles of all time, maybe some fighters and reaper flyers crashing into buildings.
I know it would take time and resources but it feelt like soemtihng was missing from the big end battle that everyone was waiting for since ME1..

After the magic elevator in the citadel where you get transported where the citadel and the crucible has conected.. The conversation with the reaper leader is what hurts the most of all... I know Shepard cant shoot a hologram... But my shepard should have a few more words with that evil reaper leader, it's like hitler, stalin and all other mass genocidal massmurdering leaders multiplied infinately.... And despite it's deceptive nature Shepard treats it like a helpful trusted friend with few objections... Bloodloss/indoctrination? or just poor writing and rushed conversation options? also the ending gave a minimal of closure and explaining of the end for the end of a trilogy and saga that's actualy pretty complex... The end scene creates more questions than it answers imo...  Is this an endign to a trilogy or a cliffhanger tellign people : Stay tuned for all the answers as Shepard tries to bring clarity to this mess once s/he has recived medical attention....

These are my honest thoughts on the topic. There was a lot I liked in this game but the endign wasn't one of them, sure  I didn't like the idea that you had to kill the geth and that option was the only action that created a save game for export. Though yet again I don't know if the geth are truly destroyed sicne the catalyst sugests shepard could die from the destroy option. If the geth are obliterated then I find it sad for the future of the ME universe, it will be a much emptier place, the geth and rachni were two of the more unique lifeforms of this universe.

#256
SoloShepard

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Good read! My big problem with Liara in all 3 games was that the game seemed to want her to be your LI so badly that you had to be rude/standoffish just to avoid accidentally romancing her.

I think MOST of the things in ME3, however, where we ended up feeling railroaded were just a result of them not wanting to spend the money to have different actors record dialogue or render different scenes. Yet another example of the emphasis on increasing profitability at the expense of quality.

#257
Barquiel

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Sparatus wrote...

The Liara flashback isn't a bug.

The Mass Effect 2 romances have no files for the flashback scene. Really, you have to wonder why they even bothered making romances in Mass Effect 2. Only two even transfer over in any meaningful fashion.


I've read that they had "technical difficulties" implementing it for the other LI's.

#258
Aeowyn

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Sparatus wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Since when does Garrus have his own comic?


Garrus is getting a comic in that Homeworld series. Along with Liara, Tali, and Vega. It hasn't been offically announced to my knowledge, but it was leaked on the artist's DA account.


Homeworld series?

@Barq: So... just because of that Garrus is now a bigger writer's pet than Liara? HAH. Don't make me laugh.

Also, OP. I agree on everything you wrote about Cerberus and TIM in ME3. Thank you, it was a good read.


Barquiel wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

The Liara flashback isn't a bug.

The
Mass Effect 2 romances have no files for the flashback scene. Really,
you have to wonder why they even bothered making romances in Mass Effect
2. Only two even transfer over in any meaningful fashion.


I've read that they had "technical difficulties" implementing it for the other LI's.


I call BS. There are already fan mods out there with flashbacks for Garrus, Kelly, Miranda etc.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 14 avril 2012 - 08:41 .


#259
Aeowyn

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.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 14 avril 2012 - 08:41 .


#260
Costin_Razvan

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Kai Leng was actually a fairly interesting character in the books, cereal bull**** in Deception aside, ME3 completely ruined him and made him a troll.

#261
Sean

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Competely true.
I chose Liara in my games and I always thought it fit but I can see for people who didn't choose her, I didn't realize a lot of those scenes would have still happened.

Kai Leng was an awful character and should have either stayed in the books or just mentioned at the most in ME3 by TIM or Anderson (maybe something that mentions that he died from the reapers in the initial attack)


Then the ending, the exact copy/paste from Deus Ex and the Starchild to Stargazer scene where that image was also taken from the internet and edited in small bits (like Tali's face except that was very poorly done)

Also about the ending, I am worried about the "Extended Cut " DLC since that doesn't sound like what people (or me) wanted. It sounds like an easy cop out so they don't have to remove the garbage they took from Deus Ex. Copying something exactly from another game isn't artistic integrity Bioware!

#262
Guest_Sparatus_*

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Aeowyn wrote...

I call BS. There are already fan mods out there with flashbacks for Garrus, Kelly, Miranda etc.


I'm no coder. But it really shouldn't be that difficult to implement a variable that shows who you romanced. Especially since they can do it for Kaidan and Ashley. The technical difficulties they had sound more like cutting corners (again) then anything else.

Though I would have preferred no flashbacks anyway. Since every Shepard is different and people may, or may not want to see Joker or Anderson in their final moments.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Kai Leng was actually a fairly
interesting character in the books, cereal bull**** in Deception aside,
ME3 completely ruined him and made him a troll.


Kai Leng is the funniest character in the game. I know it's unintentional. But I laugh everytime I see him.

Modifié par Sparatus, 14 avril 2012 - 08:45 .


#263
Barquiel

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Aeowyn wrote...

@Barq: So... just because of that Garrus is now a bigger writer's pet than Liara? HAH. Don't make me laugh.



No...where did I say this? Garrus is a "writers's pet" because he's a full fledged squadmate in all three games (unlike Liara) and has a forced friendship with Shep in ME2/ME3 (like Liara).

#264
Allan Schumacher

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Nightwriter wrote...

I didn't mind it at all in previous games, because I was still getting a decent amount of content with my preferred love interest.

Essentially, I was fine with BioWare serving the Liara fans a feast while they were still serving me solid meals.

Then they began starving me while continuing to serve the Liara fans feasts. Now I watch them dine on grapes and roast ham and strawberry wine while my stomach slowly digests itself and my gums recede from malnutrition.


I did feel there was a strong Garrus and Liara focus in terms of crew interactions, especially on the Normandy (I didn't get quite the same feeling on the Citadel).  Though I did enjoy the improved interactions across the board while on missions.  I felt Ashley was lacking, especially since she was my LI.  I don't think I cared too much though as the parts I got from all the crew were enjoyable enough for me, and Garrus probably moved up to become my favourite NPC of the series as a result.

But yeah, if those aren't your favourite characters, and I suppose especially not your LI, it amplifies the problem.


I actually thought there would be a scenario where she could have died
in the shadowbroker DLC (If she was going to die I thought it would be
there).


Was your expectation of her dying there fueled by anything else aside from the fact that every other character could die in the game, so in a sense of equality she'd be killable as well?

EDIT: on and You can kill both Kaidan and Ashley eventually :P Maybe
after you fail at Thessia Liara insists on staying to defend her world
giving you the option to let her stay behind or persuade her to go on?
THere were Times when it would have made sense for her to leave/die. But
the writers seemed to have purposefully made her immortal barring the
scenario where EVERYONE dies


Good point.  I completely forgot about the scenario on the Citadel with Udina!  And you can refuse them after the sequence if they survive (i.e. death isn't essential)


Basically people want to be able to kill Liara because they are jealous of her screentime. typical really


I don't get that impression at all.  What I'm really seeing is that people would love the option to refuse crew members that they feel doesn't mesh with however their roleplaying their Shepard.  In some cases people end up metagaming just to remove the character.


I wont begrude Bioware for putting in a fan favorite, but seriously...
Tali in ME2 is the only character that really felt forced, imo. Sure,
Liara had a lot of screen time, but never really felt forced.

I
think the arguement can be made that Garrus, Liara, and Tali are the
three writer's pets (Tali more of a... fan pet? I don't think she's
there because the writers like her, but because so many fans do, maybe
that counts) of the series, and at the end of the day, it kind of did
hurt things.

I liked all three of them, but really, we needed
some of the ME2 people as squad mates in there too. Focusing just on
half of the ME1 squadmates was a bad move. They're cool and all, but the
ME2 people are just as cool, and some of them deserved a place on the
normandy damnit.


I didn't care much for Tali in the first game either, but given how well I think she's written in the second and third game, I'd be surprised if there was a writer that didn't enjoy writing her story!

As for the ME2 squadmates, I think the uncertainty of the suicide mission really puts the ME team behind the eight ball.  I know that Garrus and Tali are still crew members, but I feel they are more the exceptions because they had already been in the first two games, rather than it being some sort of conspiracy theory against the ME2 companions.

#265
Costin_Razvan

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Barquiel wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

@Barq: So... just because of that Garrus is now a bigger writer's pet than Liara? HAH. Don't make me laugh.



No...where did I say this? Garrus is a "writers's pet" because he's a full fledged squadmate in all three games (unlike Liara) and has a forced friendship with Shep in ME2/ME3 (like Liara).


Forced friendship in ME2? Hardly. if he lives in ME3 sure but only if he lives.

#266
Aeowyn

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Barquiel wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

@Barq: So... just because of that Garrus is now a bigger writer's pet than Liara? HAH. Don't make me laugh.



No...where did I say this? Garrus is a "writers's pet" because he's a full fledged squadmate in all three games (unlike Liara) and has a forced friendship with Shep in ME2/ME3 (like Liara).


And then Liara got her own DLC with LotSB where you have more conversations with her than you have with Garrus through the entire game. I'm not denying Garrus is a writer's pet, but I think that's more because of his fan popularity than anything else.

#267
Arppis

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Not to mention... well this is a very small gripe. But Liara seems to be on LI who has naked model... WHY!? She's the only one who uses somekinda nerve-transfer to have sex! She propably doesn't even have to be naked. Psh.

#268
Guest_Sparatus_*

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The forced friendship with Garrus did bother me. But it isn't as bad as Liara.

Garrus also doesn't really have much of an impact on the plot in all three games he is in.

#269
shodiswe

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Yes, Wrex, Tali, Garrus, Ashley, Kaidan can all die. Everyone in ME2 can die as well. Isnt it odd that she is the only one who cant die?

I like her character, I just think she should have been mortal like every other member of my squad through the 1st 2 games is all.

Again I liked Liara very much, I just think there should have been a scenario where she didnt survive.



I guess I'm just struggling to understand your perspective so please bear with me.  The way I saw it, party members can only actually die at very, very specific plot points in the trilogy.  Some might have alternate ways (ignore Tali's quest in ME2 it seems), but it seems to me that you're upset that Liara wasn't an active party member in ME2 and hence avoided the potential meat grinder that was the Suicide Mission.

It seems this situation also applies to fans that dislike both Ashley and Kaiden, correct?


I liked liara but I got a sugestion, being the shadowbroker and kind of a protean expert and scientist...  Maybe peopel who didn't like her could assing her to Admiral hacket to help him with the crucible, turning her into a war asset? that way her role would still be there and peopel who didn't like liara wouldn't have to get that close, im sure people would prefer to send her off to hack rather than shooting or killing her. Or, do you really hate her that much?

#270
Guest_Sparatus_*

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I have noticed that you gradually lose more and more control over your Shepard's personality throughout the series.

In Mass Effect, you were able to play a racist that could basically be a jerk to everyone. A lot of the dialog options would just end up being Shepard saying the same thing no matter what though.

In Mass Effect 2, forced friendships with Garrus start popping up, and you lose the human first dialog options.

Mass Effect 3, has an awful lot of auto-dialog and forced friendships.

Modifié par Sparatus, 14 avril 2012 - 08:52 .


#271
Karrie788

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

@Barq: So... just because of that Garrus is now a bigger writer's pet than Liara? HAH. Don't make me laugh.



No...where did I say this? Garrus is a "writers's pet" because he's a full fledged squadmate in all three games (unlike Liara) and has a forced friendship with Shep in ME2/ME3 (like Liara).


Forced friendship in ME2? Hardly. if he lives in ME3 sure but only if he lives.

There is a forced friendship in ME2. When you meet him again Shep is all like ''Garrus! :D'' even if you were completely rude with him in the first game.
And when you see him on the Normandy right after he gets his (badass) scar, Shep has the biggest smile on his or her face no matter what.

#272
Guest_Sparatus_*

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My favorite thing about not recruiting Garrus in Mass Effect is how he starts acting like we are best friends after the first conversation in Mass Effect 2.

WE JUST MET FIVE MINUTES AGO!

Modifié par Sparatus, 14 avril 2012 - 08:53 .


#273
Woodstock-TC

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thanks Xion

#274
Karrie788

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Sparatus wrote...

My favorite thing about not recruiting Garrus in Mass Effect is how he starts acting like we are best friends after the first conversation in Mass Effect 2.

WE JUST MET FIVE MINUTES AGO!

That, and he repeatedly talks about ''old times''.

Seriously Garrus, I love you, but you weren't there.

Modifié par Karrie788, 14 avril 2012 - 08:56 .


#275
Seboist

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Sparatus wrote...

My favorite thing about not recruiting Garrus in Mass Effect is how he starts acting like we are best friends after the first conversation in Mass Effect 2.

WE JUST MET FIVE MINUTES AGO!


Bioware sure is great at handling continuity and player choice aren't they?