554 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

Sparatus wrote...

Grasich wrote...

I get the feeling a lot of the issues they hit are because they just don't plan ahead, and then they realize later that they screwed themselves.

They don't plan ahead. Which is why there are so many dropped subplots.

Considering the complexity of the series and the many differnt views I've seen people express I can immagine it would be hard to cater to everyone.

What really got a problem with though is the ending.

It's quite the ambitious project and a lot of people expressed doubt early one, can this really be done?
Still  Itihnk it's a pretty good game even if it isn't 100% in every area, especialy the ending imo.

[Calamity]

Gorwyn87 wrote...


Earth kid: Y I never cared for him, his actions seemed strange and out of place, the dreams didn't even nearly have a similar effect like in Max Payne.

Exactly this gorwyn! Does anybody know of a little kid who wouldnt have clung to an adult to get them out of danger? C'mon!

[dgcatanisiri]

Since this has been on my mind for a while now, I'm going to focus on the Liara 'pet' issue. I'll get back to the others later.

What bugs me about Liara is that she is constantly involved in intimate moments with Shepard, being there to be Shepard's confidante, but if you turn her down, there is no real alternative. Even if your LI is on the ship, there aren't similar conversations to what you have with Liara, nothing where if you turn down her attempt to talk about it, you can instead talk about it to your LI, or just another character. As a result, it feels like being railroaded into her being the most important person in Shepard's life, whether you want her to be or not.

My roleplaying experience, my favored style, is that Shepard, while understanding why Liara handed his body to Cerberus and believing that his continued survival is what's keeping the galaxy as focused on the Reapers as it is, still hasn't forgiven her for giving him to Cerberus, the people who arranged the deaths of so many, including his squad, his second family, on Akuze, and, by extension for bringing him back to life. Given the near-death experiences he'd had to that point, first on Akuze, then after Sovereign was destroyed, he had developed a belief in when it was his time, it would be his time. He doesn't believe a single person should be a symbol or bloody icon, that as important as one soldier can be, pinning all your hopes on a single individual like the galaxy seems determined to do with him is putting all your eggs in one basket, and the Reaper threat has to be taken from multiple angles. And yet, between ME2 and ME3, there is only one opportunity for him to express any anger at the fact, in ME2 when she tells him about her involvement. Every other conversation in both games has the two of them acting either like long time friends (which, from my perspective, they're not, since I rarely used her in ME1 because she wasn't trained for combat at the time, and I shut her romance down almost immediately then as well, which cut me out of her development as a character, so they really don't know each other well) or a bickering couple (the banter in LotSB). The way I see it, for my take on Shepard and Liara, their relationship should be strained, and she should be the last person Shepard would turn to for support. But this view is in no way supported by ME3.

Yes, I understand that it's impossible to write for each and every possible situation and personal take on each character. But the way that ME3 plays out has it is that it is impossible to dislike Liara. At most, you can be dismissive of some of her acts of friendship, but even those are presented in very friendly terms.

[Calamity]

Sparatus wrote...

I would have replaced the kid with whoever died on Virmire, or something.

In an earlier post, someone had suggested Avina - which would make a lot more sense than the kid.

[cogsandcurls]

I really like Liara (she and Garrus were basically my BFFs throughout the game)....BUT I totally agree that she's a writer's pet, and that might irk players who weren't RPing a friendship with her.

Regarding the plot armour issue....I honestly thought there was a chance she might die on Thessia, and then nothing happened. I was kind of disappointed, NOT because I wanted her dead (BFFs!) but because making the characters mortal makes them a hundred times more dear to me. I'll go out of my way to protect them - do loyalty missions, talk to the VS in hospital etc etc, because I know that they are vulnerable. Meeting Jack in ME3 and seeing how she'd grown was valuable to me because I knew in another world she would never have got that far.

Liara's plot armour means that the game looks after her so I don't have to. In a game where I'm used to looking out for the wellbeing of my squad, it actually gave me a bit of a disconnect.

[lillitheris]

I wrote a post about Kai Leng being emblematic of everything that's wrong in ME3, I definitely agree on that point.

I don't really agree on Liara or Cerberus. The latter is established in great part through the comics and the books: they were always powerful (and “Evolution” tells you partially why), they just weren't getting in anyone's way much. In ME2 they still have huge – probably increasing – support. In ME3 they hop on the dark side and benefit from some accelerated development. It's not entirely realistic, but in the context of things, it's a far cry from outlandish.

Liara, on the other hand…many criticize the transformation in ME2, but I think it's totally wrongheaded to ignore a few things, explained in some detail in the comic and ME2. First, regardless of whether Liara was your Shepard's LI or even friend in ME – she had some pretty strong feelings developing. The entire reason for her to get involved with the SB was Shepard. She's got a rather obsessive personality, and once she found out that the SB was going to sell Shepard out to the collectors – AND nabbed Feron when she finally rescued Shepard – she devoted all her energy to bringing the SB down, partially as a coping mechanism.

That said, there are some faults, too. The transformation isn't one of them.

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 avril 2012 - 10:41 .

[IanPolaris]

lillitheris wrote...

I wrote a post about Kai Leng being emblematic of everything that's wrong in ME3, I definitely agree on that point.

I don't really agree on Liara or Cerberus. The latter is established in great part through the comics and the books: they were always powerful (and “Evolution” tells you partially why), they just weren't getting in anyone's way much. In ME2 they still have huge – probably increasing – support. In ME3

Liara, on the other hand…many criticize the transformation in ME2, but I think it's totally wrongheaded to ignore a few things, explained in some detail in the comic, and ME2. First, regardless of whether Liara was your Shepard's LI in ME – she had some pretty strong feelings developing. The entire reason for her to get involved with the SB was Shepard. She's got a rather obsessive personality, and once she found out that the SB was going to sell Shepard out to the collectors – AND nabbed Feron when she finally rescued Shepard – she devoted all her energy to bringing the SB down, partially as a coping mechanism.

That said, there are some faults, too. The transformation isn't one of them.

If you have to appeal to out of game comics and books to explain in-game characterization problems, then you have failed.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

[Chromie]

IanPolaris wrote...
If you have to appeal to out of game comics and books to explain in-game characterization problems, then you have failed.  Simple as that.

-Polaris

Yup pretty much. I see it as EAware trying to make more money off the name.

[Aeowyn]

Um, in Retribution Cerberus is close to being broke and TIM has to let some of his operatives go. To go from that to the next Sith Empire in less than 6 months is very unrealistic and makes no sense.

[Seboist]

Aeowyn wrote...

Um, in Retribution Cerberus is close to being broke and TIM has to let some of his operatives go. To go from that to the next Sith Empire in less than 6 months is very unrealistic and makes no sense.

Not just close to being broke but they had a lot of their bases taken out, scientists and other key personnel being massacred by the Turians and numerous Alliance supporters being arrested. This is on top of the huge financial setback they were the SR-2 and Lazarus in ME2. If that wasn't enough with the Earth being overrun by the Reapers and Alliance on the run in ME3 they'd be completely cut off from their remaining front companies and supporters.

This retconned Cerberus superpower is beyond rediculous and is just as bad as the ending(among other things).

[Nassegris]

Joker is a writer’s pet, but he’s dealt with quite nicely. You don’t have to continuously interact with him if you don’t want to.

I like Liara well enough and I don’t mind the plot armour, but I wish she wouldn’t keep showing up in my Shep’s cabin. I wish my Shep could discuss her dreams and worries with someone she considers to be her best friend. That maybe just those interactions on the ship could have had a few alternative characters, depending on who you speak to the most. I never felt Liara would have been Shep’s first choice to lean on.

It felt very ‘forced’. I don’t mind the assumption that she’s my Shep’s good friend. I’d like to think anyone on the crew is, but the way it’s handled doesn’t feel right to me. I’m no Liara hater at all – I’m happy for the people that romanced her that they got so much interaction with her. I just wish I could have been allowed to get to know someone I felt was more interesting, instead.

As far as OP goes – very well put, and I pretty much agree. I don’t have a problem with characters picked to survive through all three games if they feel it’s necessary for the plot but I feel a lot of it was so clumsily implemented.

[Zolt51]

TL; almost DR...

In short.
Hate Kai Leng if you want. Being hated is his prime reason for existing. Cerberus needs an enforces, or did you expect TIM to do the dirty work himself?

Hate Liara if you want... not everyone feels that way. She was pretty bland in ME1 but for all that she was the least boring of the love interests. In ME2 her Shadow Broker appearance was very tastefully done, and may I add that it was written from the ground up in response to fan demand for more Liara. People think she's given too much importance in ME3... I'm not sure: Tali and Ash get a decent share of screen time too. She was cold at first but the later conversations with her were very well written, so I'm inclined to forgive a few dull lines.

Having Cerberus as an antagonist feels weird... we should be fighting the reapers, not our fellow humans. But from a gameplay perspective, it just works. Fighting wave after wave of reapers would get old very quickly... and everyone loves to hate a traitor. The reapers are just to faceless to make satsifying antagonists.. we fight them for our survival, but Cerberus, we fight them because they really are grade-A scumbags.

[InHumanTurtle]

I really like Liara, but she was way too forced. We whould have had way more face to face conversations with each character, with the ability to openly express your true feelings for them (e.g. for those who do hate liara, you could tell her to **** off)

That was the problem with this game, it was too forced. The writers should have consdiered the many viewpoints of the many players. After all, it is an RPG.

It's lime they wanted us all to have the exact same experience in each playthrough, why not give us choices which decide who we fight and where? I'm know Rannoch was well done and all (except for the super-advanced Reaper which can't aim whatsoever) but it would have been cool if we got a choice between a final fight against either the geth or quarians (along with the peace options)

[antony1197]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Vexille wrote...

joker is also a writers pet, but he has a much more minor role.

Liara is a squaddie who cant die... The only one... writers pet

The game (for better or worse) doesn't really let you drop party members voluntarily.  So I'm just curious, are you suggesting that there should have been a way to kill off Liara for any of the fans that didn't like her?

Of course, there also should have been a way for you to kill james or to get OTHER squad mates, look i get that there isnt room to have more than we already do but if one is dead why not?

[The Protheans]

I understand your concerns with Liara and TIM.
The Reapers and the rest your squadmates were sidelined by Liara and TIM.
Was it really that hard to make anyone of the other LI's do the similar scenes to Liara aside from the ones that actually require Liara.
Perhaps for the memory device, Ashley or any other LI could of said Liara gave it to them.

[Aver88]

I was never  a fan of Liara but I kinda liked her. I even romanced with her in ME1. But there is way too many scenes about her in ME3. I just can't look at her anymore. It's pity there is no dialogue option "Liara, I don't wanna talk to you. Don't bother me anymore." that would stop any scenes with her. 

She is that type of character that is way overused in video games. I have seen way to many characters just like her to enjoy Liara.

Modifié par Aver88, 14 avril 2012 - 11:43 .

[Jayelle Janson]

I think Liara only really works (for me anyway) if she's a LI for Shepard, otherwise her behaviour comes across rather inappropriate and desperate. The final insult is when she's the last person Shepard thinks of at the end of the game.

[crimzontearz]

I disagree slightly about T'soni

I liked her as a character (so sue me I like the idea of my shepard being attracted to a blue nedry alienette especially because of the contrast with the fact that the rest of the members of her race seem to make rite of passage from becoming strippers and shoot X rated xenophiliac movies) and I disliked the sudden turns in her personality but I believe that Sylvie (I think that is how her name is spelled) was not in charge of how plot relevant she was but only of her dialogue and reactions which were exceptional if you ask me

[Apathy1989]

 I agree with all points, but writers always have pets. Its not something that is going to change.


I liked Liara, although her personality shifts were jarring between games. I can see how anyone who didn't like her would hate that she had dropped into ME3 as shepards BFF.

[Apathy1989]

Jayelle Janson wrote...

I think Liara only really works (for me anyway) if she's a LI for Shepard, otherwise her behaviour comes across rather inappropriate and desperate. The final insult is when she's the last person Shepard thinks of at the end of the game.

Yeah I always romance Liara, so she doesn't feel so creepy. I wish her chats were replaced by a LI, but then again you can always tell her nothing.

[lillitheris]

IanPolaris wrote...

If you have to appeal to out of game comics and books to explain in-game characterization problems, then you have failed.  Simple as that.

I disagree, to a point.

It's absolutely true that without the information from the books and comics, the transitions in the game seem abrupt. I won't make excuses for that. All the topics are touched upon in the game too (at least if you play LotSB), but you really need the supplemental material to get the whole picture because they're not exposited in detail. That can be detrimental to enjoying the story.

However, the character developments do make perfect sense given that supplemental material that fleshes out the bits of info we get in the game. And it's really essential to understand that whether your Shepard has any feelings for her or not, she does. Unrequited love happens. It's really hard to get the emotional impact of that two years between ME and ME2 across in the game, and it does in fact fail at that.

So, I disagree that Liara's a bad character in that respect. Explained poorly? Sure. But that's an entirely different proposition from Kai Leng's Cone of Idiocy and Globe of Invulnerability spells.

…

And, notably, Cerberus is far from being broke at the end of Retribution, just in dire straits. They also take over Omega after that – not a poor target – and furthermore, in ME3 it's not really about research and so on anymore…they're just forcibly indoctrinating people. Non-paid, you can take all their possessions… Like I said, it's not great writing, but it's not completely implausible either.

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 avril 2012 - 12:20 .