554 réponses à ce sujet

[lillitheris]

Xion66 wrote...

Liara: I'd just like to clear that Liara being unkillable for me is not the biggest faux-pas, but the fact that in ME3 a lot of her scenes could be, LI specific scenes, a former/current squadmate highlight but instead everything goes to her, it's jarring how some squadmates can get so little in terms of dialogue and relevance and yet Liara gets all the moments she get, her talk about Shepard's nightmares is the most glaring one, that scene could have been used during a date on the Citadel with any of the LI's from former games, with every single one putting their own input about the situation which in turn makes you realize why you romance that character, yet we get Liara moments, always Liara moments.

I agree with most of your post, but I'll highlight this since despite my defence of her, I think this is definitely an issue. My “LI Improvements” thread (see sig) addresses the nightmare scenario in particular, but even overall I think either changing some scenes from Liara to LI or simply adding more intimacy with the LI would achieve the same overall affect.

…

Unlike many, apparently, I don't mind the Kai Leng character at all. OK, an asian space ninja is a little tired, but I can live with that, he's a cool assassin. The troublesome aspect is the laziness with which he's used by whoever was responsible for those scenes. Had a thread on that topic too (see above), but it can easily be summarized:

Problem: Want to kill a Salarian Ambassador but have 3 (4) extremely strong opponents ready to protect her.

Wrong: Completely remove player's ability to react to the situation, when in a normal gameplay situation they could have absolutely demolished Leng.

Right: Add a distraction for the player's team (20 Cerberus + a mech?) and nip in to gank the dalatrass while the player is otherwise engaged. Play a short cutscene or flashback for the player when it's too late to do anything about the situation.

[Star fury]

Where's EDI? In ME3 her importance was increased way too much.
Squadmate? really, SQUADMATE? While Mordin, Wrex, Miranda, Samara, Grunt etc. can't join you. In a game where you have few squadmates, precious place is taken by her and not by your buddy from the first and second game.
I like Tricia Helfer and her voice is beautiful. But new body? Thanks, no. Why? I don't see any point.
Her mandatory inclusion into the assault on Cerberus HQ was ridiculous.

[JamesFaith]

nullobject wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
Two simply question: Who and why?

Who? Any new character who wasn't a 2-dimensional anime space ninja who clashed with the sci-fi setting and recharged his shields in the open while mooks parachuted in from.... somewhere..

Why? Because he wasn't a 2-dimensional anime space ninja who...

EDIT: If we are to use existing characters, then making Miranda be TIMs enforcer would have been much better. Why? She has an existing history with both Shepard and the players; and we've had a whole previous game where she played a much milder version of that role.

Yes, I was asking on previous characters.

And Miranda? Really? Don't forget that in one version of playing ME2 she send TIM to hell, when you shut down communication and destroy Collector base. You can't use such character as main antagonist in next game, when she acting directly against this role before. Also she never be "radical" Cerberus in her conversation,  that was main reason why she was on Normandy. Change her to ruthless assassin - too big change of character.

And that you personally don't like "space ninjas"?  Well, it's only your problem. Considering how much people hate him and want to kill him, he served his purpose good.

[Stalker]

Star fury wrote...

Where's EDI? In ME3 her importance was increased way too much.
Squadmate? really, SQUADMATE? While Mordin, Wrex, Miranda, Samara, Grunt etc. can't join you. In a game where you have few squadmates, precious place is taken by her and not by your buddy from the first and second game.
I like Tricia Helfer and her voice is beautiful. But new body? Thanks, no. Why? I don't see any point.
Her mandatory inclusion into the assault on Cerberus HQ was ridiculous.

I guess she was added to provide more examples for "synthetic life is real life", not for writer-favorism.
But I agree. EDI never deserved her role in ME3. She was great as the voice of the Normandy, no need to promote her to squadmate status inside some robot.

[Xion66]

Star fury wrote...

Where's EDI? In ME3 her importance was increased way too much.
Squadmate? really, SQUADMATE? While Mordin, Wrex, Miranda, Samara, Grunt etc. can't join you. In a game where you have few squadmates, precious place is taken by her and not by your buddy from the first and second game.
I like Tricia Helfer and her voice is beautiful. But new body? Thanks, no. Why? I don't see any point.
Her mandatory inclusion into the assault on Cerberus HQ was ridiculous.

While I agree with you in the aspect that EDI did not need a bigger role than the one she already had in ME2, I do not consider her a writer's pet smply because she does not impose in key plot moments or overrides player control in certain moments, neither is her character arc part of the bloodstream of the main storyline.

She has a character arc, one that some may not like, and while her recently acquired body is in my opinion a writer's pet decision and a creative decision that there was no fan input from (personally never seen a large outcry about her being more than the AI from the Normandy), she does not overextend the bounds of a character, ebing on par with other meaningful characters.

Her being a squadmate? I can see what you mean there, but I think that situation could have been easily fixed by bringing an extra old squadmate or two, and not specifically because she's taking up space, she has her place, but you might not like it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Vexille wrote...

joker is also a writers pet, but he has a much more minor role.

Liara is a squaddie who cant die... The only one... writers pet

The game (for better or worse) doesn't really let you drop party members voluntarily.  So I'm just curious, are you suggesting that there should have been a way to kill off Liara for any of the fans that didn't like her?

I don't think killing her should have been necessary, but at the very least an opportunity like with Chakwas or the Virmire Survivor would have been warranted: send her to Hackett, where she can focus on her real contribution to the war (Shadow Broker) as a War Asset. You don't even have to be hostile about it: it could simply be a blunt 'you are the Shadow Broker. Focus on being a good one, rather than a foot soldier. The galaxy has foot soldiers, but only one Broker.'

She might not like it, any more than Chakwas, but it would be a very valid point. It would also be a good model for companions in general: if Garrus is the Turian's Reaper expert, then there's an obvious reason to leave him at Pavelon (IE, to help the Turians do better). If Tali is made an admiral, then actually fulfilling a leadership role after Rannoch could make the Quarians more effective. Etc. Even Javik the Prothean could be justified: send him to Hackett to be a high-profile Hero ALA Shepard, in really visible operations, and garner more Hanar/Prothean soft-power appeal support for Hackett.

Now, I do realize why that can't be done with everyone: Shepard needs a squad. Sending everyone home is a recepie for unplayability.

But thesquad members need some reason why they're better on the Normandy than elsewhere. It could be innate: EDI isn't leaving the ship, for example. It could be a lack of importance: Vega is a grunt, and doesn't do anything to warrant being thrown off and has nowhere else more demanding of him (except maybe sending him back to Earth?)

Heck, it could even be obligational, something Shepard is ordered/has to do and can't back out of: if we had had an alliance between the Remnants of the Hegemony and the Remnants of the Alliance, complete with a Batarian intelligence operative joining Shepard's crew, then Shepard could have had no choice but to accept. A similar parallel could have been Aria, if she were the Biotic squadmate: her squadmate status is her setting the terms of an agreement that Shepard, for the cause, won't refuse.



Besides the issue of pressing characters as canon friends in the first place, the series makes a discongruance by making Shepard's former squadies increasingly important people... thus making a discongruance for accepting them in the people who don't feel friendly with them. Liara's just the most obvious: why is she being a distracted Shadow Broker inbetween dangerous missions in a single room on my ship, if the Broker Network is so important? If Garrus is not only the Turian Reaper-expert, but even has Generals saluting him, why are they so free in letting him go? Why is Admiral-after-three-years Tali running away from her people and responsibility at the first chance she gets post-Rannoch?

Soft nepotism is fine if you like characters, but only makes it less believable if you don't. Companion characters for Shepard need a good reason for sticking with Shepard... especially when so many other companion characters don't get that option.

[Hicks233]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Karrie788 wrote...

I think we're more surprised (or worst case scenario irritated) that this scenario is possible with pretty much every other squadmate from ME1, except for her. And the fact she keeps showing up at Shep's cabin.

Okay thanks.  Though I don't know if I'd say I was surprised.  The fact that she only had an ancillary role in the second game is really the reason why.  Since she wasn't a party member, she's not vulnerable to dying on the Suicide Mission at the end of the second team.


I can understand if people groan because they don't like the character and in comes Liara.  Did you find this to be less of an issue in the previous two games?  (with any character, not just Liara)

Miranda could feel a little forced in ME2 but with her as the XO it at least made some sense. Liara though... seriously - personal space please. If I could punt her out the airlock I'd be happy. There's a whole other crew to talk to. I think it has alot to do with ME2 though. You built up your team how you wanted it choosing who to gain the loyalty of, to learn more about. Your actions had clear consequences and you went through a suicide mission together. There was a bond created. In ME1 I largely ignored Liara when she was onboard to have her made essential was jarring. It would have been interesting to see what it would be like if people like Vega, Cortez, Joker offered the emotional support instead of Liara.

Having to take her along on multiple missions was a nuisance also. She's just not as much use to me as other crew members. If Liara needs to be asked something then use the omni tool to communicate, no reason to have to bring her along.

[Aurica]

Good read and I agree. Especially the part where you talk about Kai Leng. I don't read the novels so without any foreshadowing done in game. He means just as much as the next Cerberus grunt I kill.

[bpzrn]

Very good post agree with all of this


and thsi especially -- "true definition of a writer's pet something that only someone who wrote
it and a few others can relate to, that break all narrative and theme
logic" 


ruined the game for me

[Stakis]

i agree with op in most of his post , but i strongly disagree when it comes to liara, she is essencial to the story right after shepard. you go meet her in the first place because shes an expert on protheans, you know, artifacts, beacons , crucibles and such that lead us to the reapers ?, is she a writers pet ? yeah, but shes not boring or blank , and LOTSB is the most amazing DLC ever made and gives her a new depth.

im actualy amazed how its easy to go after the argument of the " writers love liara " yet ppl forget how tali is nothing but a fan service , and lets not forget garrus, either you like him or not his your war bro, i think that also qualifies as writers pet.

[Salfin]

I disagree with some of your points. I immensely enjoyed Liara's involvement in ME3. Her voice acting is great, she comes across as sort of aloof, alian, and very analytical. I think perhaps that is subjective if you're looking for a more warm and nurturing personality, Liara doesn't give you that. I also didn't have so much of a problem with TIM/cerberus.

Your other points I do agree with. 

Modifié par Salfin, 14 avril 2012 - 02:35 .

[MachinaDrake86]

No matter it's redeeming values as writing (if it has any) the fact is, this ending is not the logical end to the story, it's not even the logical continuity of the 30 seconds prior, it isn't relatable, it's consequences are unforseeable and speculative, it's not open-ended it's speculation through omission and continuity/plot flaws, it is something highly cerebral and personal when it should have been something highly relatable and emotional, and that kind of ending is something only someone set on having it because it's how they want can like, something only people that want a twist with a dark and gritty atmosphere, this is the vision of forced bittersweetness, you clearly see the writer's intentions it breaks immersion to have these many things happening just because, and that's why it fails, it overrides player input and makes it an entity outside of the reader's journey.

Nice going. I like what you wrote. But can you please redo the last paragraph?

The grammar takes a nose-dive. I can't understand what you're trying to say. i.e. Too many commas. Not enough periods. I mean, its one damn sentence. WTH?

[WindOverTuchanka]

OchreJelly wrote...

Besides the points brought up by everyone else which I mostly agree with, I was confused why I was supposed to care a lot about the dead Virmire-squadmate after Shep's first nightmare. I mean, I did care but it felt like Shep had sorted that out some time ago in game 2 (at least not to the point of grief in 3.)

 

...It would have been logical to bring up Mordin, who (with high enough probability) died just before the nightmare. I always thought that the whole scene in the bath was basically mourning Mordin, but for some reason Shepard can only bring up VS.

Oh, and Liara definetely has no sense of personal space in that particular cutscene. Shepard's in the bathroom, so couldn't she just drop by later? And stop blocking the doorway, Liara, please! Your attention is suffocating!

[fainmaca]

Star fury wrote...

Where's EDI? In ME3 her importance was increased way too much.
Squadmate? really, SQUADMATE? While Mordin, Wrex, Miranda, Samara, Grunt etc. can't join you. In a game where you have few squadmates, precious place is taken by her and not by your buddy from the first and second game.
I like Tricia Helfer and her voice is beautiful. But new body? Thanks, no. Why? I don't see any point.
Her mandatory inclusion into the assault on Cerberus HQ was ridiculous.

I don't feel this makes her a writer's pet, but rather is just an example of writers resorting to weak storytelling methods. Giving the ship's intelligence a Humanoid body is overdone and completely unoriginal, and its mostly caving to the vocal elements of the fanbase who wanted Joker to be able to bang the ship (some of the fanfics that this desire spawns are troubling, to say the least...). I thought that Bioware were doing something original by allowing the pair to have a relationship that transcended physical/digital boundaries, but then they went and spoiled it.

As for the pinocchio storyline, I feel that that is a shame, and it could be argued to be an extension of the ending/catalyst writer's pet issue. The story seems to imply that for organic and machine to truly get along, synthetics (EDI and the Geth) need to become more and more Human, give up their unique perspective on the universe and accept an organic way of thinking.

In short, its more a case of weak writing or writer laziness rather than favouritism.

[Xion66]

MachinaDrake86 wrote...

No matter it's redeeming values as writing (if it has any) the fact is, this ending is not the logical end to the story, it's not even the logical continuity of the 30 seconds prior, it isn't relatable, it's consequences are unforseeable and speculative, it's not open-ended it's speculation through omission and continuity/plot flaws, it is something highly cerebral and personal when it should have been something highly relatable and emotional, and that kind of ending is something only someone set on having it because it's how they want can like, something only people that want a twist with a dark and gritty atmosphere, this is the vision of forced bittersweetness, you clearly see the writer's intentions it breaks immersion to have these many things happening just because, and that's why it fails, it overrides player input and makes it an entity outside of the reader's journey.

Nice going. I like what you wrote. But can you please redo the last paragraph?

The grammar takes a nose-dive. I can't understand what you're trying to say. i.e. Too many commas. Not enough periods. I mean, its one damn sentence. WTH?

Ha. I'm sorry will do that a bit later. When I'm ranting grammar usually goes out of the window along with my formatting, funny it only happens when I write in english.

[Star fury]

Xion66 wrote...

While I agree with you in the aspect that EDI did not need a bigger role than the one she already had in ME2, I do not consider her a writer's pet smply because she does not impose in key plot moments or overrides player control in certain moments, neither is her character arc part of the bloodstream of the main storyline.

Oh rly? So attack on Cronos station is just sidequest? Or you can leave her on the Normandy during that?

Xion66 wrote...
Her being a squadmate? I can see
what you mean there, but I think that situation could have been easily
fixed by bringing an extra old squadmate or two, and not specifically
because she's taking up space, she has her place, but you might not like
it.

Reason. Reason why we have her as squadmate? In the last and most important game of the series. Well, if you are her personal fan, no need to explain.

Modifié par Star fury, 14 avril 2012 - 02:42 .

[fainmaca]

Sparatus wrote...

Yeah, I hated that after all of that talk about geth wanting to do their own thing, that it just turns out they want to be like organics. Despite Legion explicitly saying it didn't want to be treated like one in Mass Effect 2 (to my knowledge. I haven't played Mass Effect 2 in forever.)

I don't think Legion's new writer really got him.

Indeed. Legion made it crystal clear that all the Geth desired was the ability to upload themselves into their megastructure to achieve 'true unity' and transcendence. If anything, organic individuality is about as far as you can get from what they want to do. Its like a pacifist from one game suddenly shifting into a gun-toting hardass in the next game. They moved from one goal to its polar opposite.

[Stalker]

Star fury wrote...

Xion66 wrote...

While I agree with you in the aspect that EDI did not need a bigger role than the one she already had in ME2, I do not consider her a writer's pet smply because she does not impose in key plot moments or overrides player control in certain moments, neither is her character arc part of the bloodstream of the main storyline.

Oh rly? So attack on Cronos station is just sidequest? Or you can leave her on the Normandy during that?

I might add here: The currently side-lined Miranda would have had a great role there. In my opinion a far more fitting one than EDI.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 14 avril 2012 - 02:47 .

[vitae-vixi]

Thank You OP for that interesting read! You've put into words that which had been bothering me!

You know, I can forgive TIM, the brat (but not the transcended Starbrat), I can't forgive Kai Leng and Liara... Liara had always been my least favourite character. Even in ME2 she's still the simpering idiot of Mass Effect. In Mass Effect 3 she's a annoyance, who pops in to your cabin for a nice girly chat and forces her love at you XD!

[Shajar]

Good points, especially that Liara part.  She gets all attention from devs, that is very true. I liked her in ME1, minor character and so all. But now, i feel like im forced to "love" her, so annoying and spend all cinema parts with Liara

Modifié par Shajar, 14 avril 2012 - 02:56 .

[Star fury]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Oh rly? So attack on Cronos station is just sidequest? Or you can leave her on the Normandy during that?

I might add here: The currently side-lined Miranda would have had a great role there. In my opinion a far more fitting one than EDI.

Exactly. She was right hand of TIM in ME2, appearing in a crucial cut-scene in the beginning.

Modifié par Star fury, 14 avril 2012 - 02:55 .

[TransientNomad]

Excellent post OP. I agree on all points. Even if I like Liara, Cerberus, and even Kai, your points are all true.