554 réponses à ce sujet

[recentio]

Well, I like Liara. She was a bit bumbling/nerdy in ME1; snapped when Shepard died because she was a bit obsessed, LI or not LI, in ME2 and went all revenge-quest on the Shadow Broker; and then basically professional in ME3. I enjoyed her scenes. But, I can understand the desire to have the freedom to avoid her if you want to. I have that feeling a lot in games like Final Fantasy XIII that force s***y characters upon you constantly. Mass Effect, far more than most other games, does a great job of letting the player interact with whoever they really want to.

Kai Leng was good for more than a few eye rolls, though. He's more like a prop than a character. Maybe if I'd read the books I would have appreciated him more.

[animallover11]

That was an interesting read. Good writing, OP.

[LadyWench]

Sparatus wrote...

The issue is that most people don't hate Kai Leng because he is an evil Cerberus stooge. But because he is a poorly written character with an absurd amount of cutscene power.

And the whole space ninja thing doesn't really jive with the setting. Phantoms and Kai Leng look like they came from a different story altogether.

OFT!!!

[tiduspr]

Just read the OP right now. And I have to hand it to you, really good analysis.

Even though I really like Liara, I do agree that she is forced upon the player, whether you like it or not. But this follows a general trend of non-player made choices throughout the game. (example: Mass Effect 1 forces you into a romance with Liara or Ashley, unless you outright stop talking to either of them).

Your analysis about the kid is just brilliant. Hard to believe that *this* would make Shepard crack. Particularly after witnessing everything he has. The loss of his crew and comrades, even watching some of them goo-fied into genetic paste.

Terribly good read. I agree with everything (but I still Liara. Even though I gave her the boot to romance Kaidan).

[egnit]

I liked the kid at the beginning of the game. From an emotional standpoint it really solidified my anger. I already had more then enough reason to want the reapers stopped, but that moment with the music and watching the kid die, I was angered and upset. It made me think right then and there that my Shepard was going to do anything and everything in his power to stop the Reapers and preserve the galaxy.

[TheWerdna]

IsaacShep wrote...

You forgot about another HUGE writer's pet. Garrus. Who can 'comfort' you after the failure on Thessia? Only Garrus. No other LI has any dialogue after Thessia, neither Tali, Samantha, Cortez, Ashley, Kaidan, not even talking ME2 LIs.

Tali comforts Shepard after Thessia (Possibly only if she is your LI)

[sammysoso]

Good stuff OP, you really hit the nail on the head.

The kid was the worst for me, it felt like the game kept hitting me over the head going "THIS IS SAD, YOU FEEL SAD."

TIM and Cerberus did seem overpowered, but I was always able to overlook that. Liara is definitely a writers pet. (which I feel bad for saying because I really do like the character) She easily has the most content, especially LI stuff.

And Kai Leng needs to go back to whatever JRPG he crawled out of

[Quietness]

I enjoyed how the Tali/Garrus thing was pretty much shoved down your throat. Was waiting for femshep to pipe up (romancing garrus) During the Flagship mission. If you bring Garrus she pretty much spends most of the time hitting on him.

[Grimwick]

I agree with you for Kai Leng, as a 'villain' he does become very annoying with his plot armour. For someone with such obviously slow cut scenes he has a habit of not dying.Star child... let's not even go there, he's just annoying.

However I would disagree with Liara/TIM.

In ME1, yes, Liara was a fairly 'boring' character who never really stood out. That being said I did like her character, as many others do, and she is still my canon LI. Other characters (mainly Kaiden/Ashley) got far more attention in ME1 whereas Liara was recruitable as your last mission beofre Ilos. that is not very indicative of a writer's pet for the first installment.In regards to ME2 I would disagree that her character arc does in fact suit her. It makes a lot more sense of course if she is your LI but her actions in the 2 years you spent dead have obviously changed her and you can point this out in LotSB. In fact I would argue her character arc is one of the best, Garrus becomes a hardcore vigilante and is also arguably the best, Tali doesn't really change because we hardly knew her at all, Kaiden/Ashley just get a bit more whiny in ME2+3 frankly. Other than LotSB you never really talk to Liara. she gets more action than Ash/kaiden, sure, but if you don't download LotSB she actually gets less.
In ME3 yes... there is a lot of Liara to begin with. In the space between Mars-Her project she gets a fair amount of dialogue. but this is also noticeable with Garrus. But after Tuchanka Liara actually has the least dialogue out of your team until Thessia.
Liara may have plot armour and I do think that players should have had the option to remove her if they so wished... but she doesn't get the ridiculous 'writer's pet' attention that people make out. She gets a lot but other characters got a fair amount too. But that is, after all, my opinion and as you could probably tell she is one of my favourite characters.

In response to TIM, I don't believe he has any plot-armour or too much attention at all. the fact that cerberus was mentioned at all in ME1 is a big plus and I find him an interesting villain. Him getting attention doesn't seem wrong to me at all.

Modifié par Grimwick, 14 avril 2012 - 03:52 .

[lillitheris]

Sparatus wrote...

To be fair,

That was the first child Shepard ever saw. So it was a big deal.

No, it just wasn't That is to say, you're welcome to feel that way and there are tons of good arguments why many or most Shepards would or should be affected…but that's not the point of roleplaying. The player should be given the option to have their Shepard care, or not. In some cases this actively works against itself – I, for example, would have been much more inclined to be upset about the kid if it wasn't underlined and forced.

(My dialogue thread is also collecting instances where the dialogue should be changed to avoid forcing opinions on Shepard, if anyone has suggestions.)

[fainmaca]

egnit wrote...

I liked the kid at the beginning of the game. From an emotional standpoint it really solidified my anger. I already had more then enough reason to want the reapers stopped, but that moment with the music and watching the kid die, I was angered and upset. It made me think right then and there that my Shepard was going to do anything and everything in his power to stop the Reapers and preserve the galaxy.

Yes, but what about when he plagues Shepard's dreams, when he kept turning up until the Catalyst chose to use him as the 'face' of the creators of the Reapers? When your Shepard started being glum all the time about being unable to save him? How did you feel about all that?

[Cirreus]

Bioware: "Oh I had some bets down for you. You saw some money."

Mass Effect: "You don't understand. I coulda had class. I coulda been a contender. I coulda been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what I am, let's face it. It was you, Bioware."

Modifié par Cirreus, 14 avril 2012 - 04:08 .

[Riion]

Grimwick wrote...

I agree with you for Kai Leng, as a 'villain' he does become very annoying with his plot armour. For someone with such obviously slow cut scenes he has a habit of not dying.Star child... let's not even go there, he's just annoying.

However I would disagree with Liara/TIM.

In ME1, yes, Liara was a fairly 'boring' character who never really stood out. That being said I did like her character, as many others do, and she is still my canon LI. Other characters (mainly Kaiden/Ashley) got far more attention in ME1 whereas Liara was recruitable as your last mission beofre Ilos. that is not very indicative of a writer's pet for the first installment.In regards to ME2 I would disagree that her character arc does in fact suit her. It makes a lot more sense of course if she is your LI but her actions in the 2 years you spent dead have obviously changed her and you can point this out in LotSB. In fact I would argue her character arc is one of the best, Garrus becomes a hardcore vigilante and is also arguably the best, Tali doesn't really change because we hardly knew her at all, Kaiden/Ashley just get a bit more whiny in ME2+3 frankly. Other than LotSB you never really talk to Liara. she gets more action than Ash/kaiden, sure, but if you don't download LotSB she actually gets less.
In ME3 yes... there is a lot of Liara to begin with. In the space between Mars-Her project she gets a fair amount of dialogue. but this is also noticeable with Garrus. But after Tuchanka Liara actually has the least dialogue out of your team until Thessia.
Liara may have plot armour and I do think that players should have had the option to remove her if they so wished... but she doesn't get the ridiculous 'writer's pet' attention that people make out. She gets a lot but other characters got a fair amount too. But that is, after all, my opinion and as you could probably tell she is one of my favourite characters.

In response to TIM, I don't believe he has any plot-armour or too much attention at all. the fact that cerberus was mentioned at all in ME1 is a big plus and I find him an interesting villain. Him getting attention doesn't seem wrong to me at all.

[Bantz]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Vexille wrote...

joker is also a writers pet, but he has a much more minor role.

Liara is a squaddie who cant die... The only one... writers pet

The game (for better or worse) doesn't really let you drop party members voluntarily.  So I'm just curious, are you suggesting that there should have been a way to kill off Liara for any of the fans that didn't like her?

allan, I think people don't like that she seems to be the cannon romance option. She's the only one that can't die, she's the only one that shows up in sheps flashbacks at the end. He sees joker (ok weird but a buddy that's been through hell with him ok) anderson (father figure, totally makes sense) and... Liara? My shep romanced tali but in his final moments he's thinking of Liara?

Personally I liked her character but some people don't like that she is untouchable. Some guy on here did a "worst case" playthrough where he literally killed off every single member of the crew (or didn't recruit them ala Javick/Legion) and took the remaining 2 on his mission at the end and got them zapped by harby. Even then he had trouble finding a way to get rid of liara.

[Skull Bearer]

I think this is only a facet of the main problem with ME3. Instead of letting the players continue with their own Shepard's adventure, as they had in 1 and 2, they raidroaded him/her into THEIR idea of Shepard. Hence the caring about a random kid/being obsessed about Earth, etc garbage.

[jbadm04]

good read, I agree with you on all points, but especialy on KaiLeng and Cerberus
The point with Liara is kinda hard... this sort of games (story driven) have preset characters that fill their roles, Liara as being SHeps strength and best? friend. Sure BW could write around it, but then again, it would take vast amounts of ressources and take like forever to finish, Im ok with that.
Btw Wrex and Garrus also fit in this category, but you dont mention them? Maybe because Wrex and Garrus are like always "liked" ? Btw, in my playthough Garrus had more lines to say then Liara, except for the time-capsule scene...

[my Aim is True]

bboynexus wrote...

Liara's role in ME3 isn't really any less or any more important than Tali's when you think about it.

I would disagree.  For one thing, Liara is one of the only squadmates of the entire series that you cannot kill,  and the only squadmate from either of the 1st and 2nd games you can't kill.

[Grimwick]

my Aim is True wrote...

bboynexus wrote...

Liara's role in ME3 isn't really any less or any more important than Tali's when you think about it.

I would disagree.  For one thing, Liara is one of the only squadmates of the entire series that you cannot kill,  and the only squadmate from either of the 1st and 2nd games you can't kill.

She isn't a squadmate in ME2.

[Arik7]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Vexille wrote...

joker is also a writers pet, but he has a much more minor role.

Liara is a squaddie who cant die... The only one... writers pet

The game (for better or worse) doesn't really let you drop party members voluntarily.  So I'm just curious, are you suggesting that there should have been a way to kill off Liara for any of the fans that didn't like her?

It would have been AWESOME if I didn't have to see Liara EVER again.  Shepard should have been given a CHOICE whether to recruit her or not.   Let her work on the Crucible, or something.  Any random Asari could have showed up for the Thessia Cathedral scene.

The biggest problem Mass Effect 3 has, as a supposed RPG, is characters being FORCED on Shepard, especially the child/starchild and Liara.

Modifié par Arik7, 14 avril 2012 - 04:36 .

[joshko]

Very good read, thank you!

[Nobrandminda]

 I never understand the acusation that Liara is a writer's pet due to her importance in ME3, mostly because it seemed like a fairly natural progression.  She's pretty much Shepard's confidant by process of elimination.

Vega is a new character, and a boring one at that.

EDI might as well be a new character since she only developed the capability to form a personality at the end of the last game.

Garrus and Tali are squadmates in ME2, and therefore potentially dead.

Either Ashley or Kaiden is dead, and in any case, it's established in ME2 that they have a cool relationship with Shepard after the whole dying thing.

So... who would you give all of Liara's dialog to?  One of the new characters that we don't care about?  One of the potentially dead characters, which would cause some players to miss those moments entirely?

Or if your issue is that Liara is immortal, how would you kill her?  Wrex and Kaiden/Ashley die at specific points, so how would you get rid of Liara?  Let her get killed off on Noveria?  Make her a squad member in ME2?

Modifié par Nobrandminda, 14 avril 2012 - 04:38 .