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Why 'Writer's pets' hurt, and ultimately damage Mass Effect 3


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#451
DerberAuner

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on the whole liara subject:

i think the reason, why shes forced on you in me3 is BECAUSE she could not die. it makes the whole storytelling part a lot easier and you dont have to record as much dialogue for the different characters. i actually thought this the very moment i first met liara on mars, its a logical choice. but its also a lazy one. and i think people who are upset about her large part are mostly upset because there are no alternatives for you.
i can understand the whole timecapsule thing, since basically liaras an archeologist, so she has to programm it, but would it really have been so difficult to just have a line recorded saying liara set it all up and she asked your LI (who is now having the liara conversation instead of her) to talk to you about it?
i CANT understand the mind meld thing before the charge into the beam, seems forced to me (even though, i might add, i treated liara mostly well, never really insulted her or such, but kept her at arms length, so this intimate thing seemed weird).

summing up: using her as a plot device just seemed lazy to me, not neccesarily evil (i.e. forcing some canon onto you)

on the kai leng subject:

i dont know what bioware was thinking with this guy.... the "boss fights" were just pitiful. srsly. on thessia, all i did was duck in cover with my shotgun and blast him now and again (on insanity i might add). and he ran.
he just seems so impotent... also, i really wanted shepard to just steer his sky car upward towards one of those walkways on the presidium when kai leng was on the car, way easier to get rid of him that way, than trying to shoot him off......
next thing: for an assasin with a ninjato, hes really slow. i can pull a gun and shoot him in less time than it takes him to take his sword back for one swing. the phantoms were more dangerous. and faster.

moving on to: cerberus:

i think the whole "control the reapers" thing was a bit foreshadowed in the second me part with the ending, and TIM wanting to preserve the collector base. but the whole evil cerberus thing didnt make sense to me. assuming for the moment that TIM actually has humanitys best interests at heart, he wont interfere with shepard as much, only when he has to. why the hell were they on surkesh and tuchanka???? "likely to need krogan shock troops against reapers" it said after the mordin loyalty mission in my playthrough. sabotaging the cure seems idiotic, even if you want to control the reapers instead of destroying them, after all, you might fail, TIM is not that stupid.
Also: TIM is more than smart enough not to make the same mistake twice. the scientist on the derilict reaper in me 2 who got indoctrinated, seemed like a good enough warning about the dangers of indoctrination.

but again: i think this is more laziness than anything else
when you think it through, there arent as many hostile classes in me3 as there are in me 1 and 2.
so you reduce the enemy to 3 factions:

geth (minor role if you ask me, also you still have the models from previous games, so half the work, classes i remember being: prime, trooper, pyro, rocket trooper and hunter), reapers (just create some zombielike husk version of every species out there and you got it; namely: banshees (asari), brute (krogan/turian), canibal (baterian), marauder (turian) and husks(human)), and cerberus (5 classes plus the robot: assault trooper, guardian, command guy, phantom and nemesis plus atlas), in total i count 16 different models here.

in me 2 you had: blood pack (krogan/vorcha/varren/klyxen), eclipse (human, asari, salarian in different combos), blue suns (humans/batarians/turians), geth (about the same amount of enemy classes as in me 3), husks ( husks, scions and abominations) and collectors (though strictly speaking, there you have two models, harbinger and every other collector), not to forget the mechs (loki, ymir and dogs) (in total 23, if you count one for each point mentioned, though techincally, there are at least two different krogan classes, multiple humans and asari and from what i remember at least two salarian classes, point being: variety somehow suffered in me3)
me 1 was unfortunately too long ago, but as i recall, you had to fight every species you encounter at some point (except for quarians, there you only meet tali)

EDIT:

given that you only have these three factions available, cerberus is the one that makes the most sense to encounter on surkesh and tuchanka, but that doesnt make them a good choice as opponents here....

(slightly edited to account for classes i forgot to mention earlier on)

next thing: kid on eaerth/in dreams

this felt so forced for me as a mass effect 1 and 2 player..... there are a LOT of dead, that should bother shepard more, given that he knew them better. just to mention one sure one: whoever you left to die on virmire.
but again, i can understand the position from a writers point of view.
you want to make shepard more human by making him/her doubt him-/herself, fine. i dont like the idea, given how some people played shepard, but fine. (i played mine with a little more self doubt, so in my case this actually works)
so you have to make him care about something. the best way to do this is by figuring out which of the dead from the previous games had the highest "relationship score", since you obviously cared most about that dead guy.
but the easiest way to do this is by introducing a new character, that everyone feels sorry for, so you take a helpless kid. problem i see with this: i think the me engine never projected a kid before, and frankly, that kid just looked weird.....i mean, the overall model looked ok, i guess, but the way this kid was just looking everywhere but in your face when you talk to him... also: the "shocked suprise face" he has, when the reaper comes around to kill him, i dont know what, but something was off about that.

again: this just seems like laziness to me...


last but not least: the ending:

dont even get me started on this, i could write for hours and still only have written down half of what bugs me about it.
but, im gonna give bioware a chance to fix this.....


point being: i think they invested resources in something, *cough*multiplayer*cough*, and neglected other things, *cough*singleplayer*cough*, for it.
i personally disagree strongly with this practice, but it doesnt seem like my opinion on games matters.....

Modifié par DerberAuner, 15 avril 2012 - 12:23 .


#452
MakeMineMako

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The way Cerberus was handled in ME3 gave me pause. Mostly because I felt The Illusive Man took a huge dose of stupid pills. He was far from the crafty, intelligent, and pragmatic individual seen in ME2. In the space of a year (in game time), he suddenly got a bad case of the Snidely Whiplash Syndrome. My only explanation is that he was slowly indoctrinated over the years, starting with his contact with Reaper artifacts in Mass Effect: Evolution.

Kai Leng was just window dressing, as far as I'm concerned. He wasn't as well developed, or intimidating, as in the novels. He was a tool in the game to draw in the weeaboos to the franchise.

Even though I didn't romance Liara in the games, I considered her one Shepard's closest friends. Someone he could confide in and get intelligent advice from. So, I didn't feel forced into being close with her, since it felt natural considering their strong friendship. People will talk about things with their best friends that they won't talk to their lovers or family about. I feel that this is the case with Liara.

However, I can understand the arguments contrary to this. If you didn't consider her a good friend or lover, it can feel forced upon you.

#453
thefallen2far

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I don't want to agree with the OP.... but I do. I like Liara, she was definately forced into a tight relationship. Same with Garrus. One of my characters, I tried to make him work for me, but they still tried to force the "on even terms" relationship. While it was a flaw, I definately could have overlooked it. Same with TIM.... and I could have allowed the "symbolism of the kid". Kai Lang definately stuck out like a sore thumb. The ending was just too much for me.

#454
d-boy15

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Liara is sometimes feel forced on me, not because she get most screentime than other
(I know why, becasue she not die and she is plot driven character). The reason is when
shepard have conversation with her sometimes it feel like nearly romanctic conversation
even you not romance her, especially mind scene at the last goodbye if you accept it look
like intimate scene and if you not, you like being an ass to her.

for TIM and cerberus, I feel like they ran out of an idea of humanoid enemy. I think it will be
more interesting if they are an allied working with alliance.

Modifié par d-boy15, 15 avril 2012 - 12:12 .


#455
Auztin

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I agree on the ending but your other 4 points I won't agree with.

Kai Leng was a good enough bad guy he was that minor guy who wanted to prove he is better than you.

Illusive Man is a great villian to fight like you said he is like the counter-part to Shepard.

The kid thing is used in many war movies especially Saving Private Ryan & Windtalkers it was supposed to give that Earth is lost & in a strange way when a soldier sees a kid die in real life they get what you got here.

Liara was cool to see again.I didn't have a problem with her because you need her for the info.

Modifié par Auztinito, 15 avril 2012 - 01:38 .


#456
HopHazzard

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I like Liara well enough, and in most of my games I consider her one of Shepard's most trusted friends. But I can definitely see how she could get on the nerves of people who don't see her that way. The only time it really bothers me is the flashback scene at the end where she's there in place of your LI unless you romanced Ashley or Kaidan. What the heck is that about?

#457
Unit-Alpha

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If you think Liara is a writer's pet, but think Tali and/or Garrus deserve more screen time...

I need to have a word with you.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 15 avril 2012 - 12:40 .


#458
Aeowyn

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

If you think Liara is a writer's pet, but think Tali and/or Garrus deserve more screen time...

I need to have a word with you.


You know, I love Liara fans who seem to think that Garrus/Tali are treated better than Liara. Newsflash, they can die.

#459
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Aeowyn wrote...

You know, I love Liara fans who seem to think that Garrus/Tali are treated better than Liara. Newsflash, they can die.


Why do they always bring up Tali and Garrus anyway? Yeah, they were in all three games. But them showing up in all three games is your choice

#460
Aeowyn

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Sparatus wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

You know, I love Liara fans who seem to think that Garrus/Tali are treated better than Liara. Newsflash, they can die.


Why do they always bring up Tali and Garrus anyway? Yeah, they were in all three games. But them showing up in all three games is your choice


It's the biggest competition I guess?

#461
Karrie788

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Sparatus wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

You know, I love Liara fans who seem to think that Garrus/Tali are treated better than Liara. Newsflash, they can die.


Why do they always bring up Tali and Garrus anyway? Yeah, they were in all three games. But them showing up in all three games is your choice

Honestly I don't feel either Garrus or Tali deserve a bigger role than the one they currently have. I think it was pretty balanced, especially since you could get rid of them if they really annoyed you. Forced friendships in ME2 were bad however.

Modifié par Karrie788, 15 avril 2012 - 01:06 .


#462
Xion66

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

If you think Liara is a writer's pet, but think Tali and/or Garrus deserve more screen time...

I need to have a word with you.


I do not think either deserve more time, I think the fact that they only carried over was due to the players liking them so much which is an entire different issue on it's own.

I think every character that does not fall under writer's pets and fan's favourite should have more than the passing mention for narrative cohesion, and balance, as it it stands, you only do the bare minimum to maintain narrative flow and rely a lot on the emotional rollercoaster.

#463
Chrillze

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"Liara can't die, she must be the writers favourite character!!!" Well Hackett can't die either and I don't see you complaining about that. And does it REALLY matter if the writers like Liara more than say useless Ashley or stereotype shy girl Tali?

#464
Xion66

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Chrillze wrote...

"Liara can't die, she must be the writers favourite character!!!" Well Hackett can't die either and I don't see you complaining about that. And does it REALLY matter if the writers like Liara more than say useless Ashley or stereotype shy girl Tali?


My post mentions nothing about Liara's 'immortality' as a character

#465
Chrillze

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Xion66 wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

"Liara can't die, she must be the writers favourite character!!!" Well Hackett can't die either and I don't see you complaining about that. And does it REALLY matter if the writers like Liara more than say useless Ashley or stereotype shy girl Tali?


My post mentions nothing about Liara's 'immortality' as a character

I never talked about your post, I talked about the other whiners

#466
Xion66

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Chrillze wrote...

Xion66 wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

"Liara can't die, she must be the writers favourite character!!!" Well Hackett can't die either and I don't see you complaining about that. And does it REALLY matter if the writers like Liara more than say useless Ashley or stereotype shy girl Tali?


My post mentions nothing about Liara's 'immortality' as a character

I never talked about your post, I talked about the other whiners


Ah ok, sorry the lack of a quotation and the fact that I've been accused of hating on Liara just because I didn't like her made me a bit defensive.

#467
Kanon777

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the leak from nov2011 said you COULD kill liara during the Udina Coup, but people here started complaining about that (calling it Virmire 2.0/terrible idea) and Bioware decided to remove it...

#468
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Chrillze wrote...

"Liara can't die, she must be the writers favourite character!!!" Well Hackett can't die either and I don't see you complaining about that. And does it REALLY matter if the writers like Liara more than say useless Ashley or stereotype shy girl Tali?


Hackett doesn't hit on me constantly. And his role in the story makes sense, because he is an admiral and the leader of the remnants of the Alliance.

Also, Liara is literally the same character archetype as Tali. The shy, awkward girl.

Modifié par Sparatus, 15 avril 2012 - 01:26 .


#469
daguest

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MelancholyV wrote...

I agree with the part on the kid. The writers tried to give us an empathetic character we would feel for, but failed miserably. Some of us are sad to see a kid get killed at the beginning, but it ends there. We don't know who he is, where he came from, and don't really care. He appeared suddenly and disappeared just as quickly. Involving him anymore makes him annoying and leaves us wishing he would just die and gtfo.

I agree. I was sad at the beginning, not only because of the kid, but because my planet is burning, my species being exterminated. One child is (unfortunately) nothing when billions are killed.
Do you think Shepard would have more nightmares about one child than Thessia + Earth + Palaven and countless worlds ? How many children ?

Also, about Liara, I did enjoy the character in ME1-2, but she was always a very good friend to my shep. I romanced Tali. In ME3 it looks like she try to romance my shep, spending more time with him (and more hugs) than with Tali, my own LI....
She was quite annoying in ME3, sadly.

#470
alterIncogn1T0

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The defense that Liara is crucial to the development of the plot because she is a Prothean expert is flat and baseless.

She found plans for a Prothean Doomsday Device. That's about the only thing I can think of that has her relating to the progress of the story, which was SUPPOSE to be "Find a way to stop the Reapers". That's it. She did her job. I would have been content to see her return to the background as the Shadow Broker and help Shepard by providing information on possible missions and potential war assets.

But apparently she now excells in areas like "biotic ****storms", "psycho-therapist", and "Best Friend Forever". Nevermind the fact that she's now the head of secretive information conglomeration. The best way BioWare can deal with this fact? "Oh, TIM found me, so I crashed my base into the sun. But aside from managing a galaxy-wide network of information agents, I can still follow you around! Tell me about your nightmares!" Also, the deep and person encounters you are forced to have with her ("Tell me about your nightmares!"), whether you the player like her or not, makes the game even more linear than ever before. Don't get me wrong, Liara is a fantastic character. But there is a time and place for characters like Liara to shine and be appreciated for who they are, and BioWare frequented her presence way too many times.

I would have rather seen the Mass Effect team make her an optional squadmate, along with all the other characters from ME2 that got the shaft *cough* THANE *cough*. This would allow Shepard to get close to the people s/he cares more about, and if s/he so choosen, ignores the ones s/he doesn't. And if Liara had some really awesome Shadow Brokery things to share with Shepard when she's not with him/her, she can contact him via Space-Skype.

#471
Chrillze

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Kanon777 wrote...

the leak from nov2011 said you COULD kill liara during the Udina Coup, but people here started complaining about that (calling it Virmire 2.0/terrible idea) and Bioware decided to remove it...

and NOW people are complaing that she can't be killed?!? LOL

#472
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You couldn't kill Liara didn't the Udina coup.

You could kill Liara on Thessia. But it just gave Kai Leng more cutscene power so I'm happy it was removed.

Honestly, I don't even want to kill Liara. I just wanted them to tone her down because I don't want to romance her, Bioware. Goddamn. stop forcing the character on me and work on the Mass Effect characters you neglected

Modifié par Sparatus, 15 avril 2012 - 01:31 .


#473
MrRag

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Very good post, got me thinking a lot.

The more I read about ME3 the more I see how the story was constructed and driven. Beside the constant distraction caused by side quests, some characters indeed had a questionable role. The main focus, being the destruction of the reapers, was lost in favor of an ending that really missed the point of the series.

I like Liara, but I wish I could have had those dialogues with Miranda (ME2 LI), who was absent literally the whole game! There was nearly no private dialogue with Ashley (my ME1 LI), which I still don't understand why.

Xion66 wrote...
..., it overrides player input and makes it an entity outside of the reader's journey.

Well said, this is exactly how I felt about the ending.

#474
Shallyah

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I would've been happy with the possibility of Liara dying in her homeworld in ME3, just like about every other squadmate since ME1. Writer's pet or not, what makes me most sick of all is to think that Liara is there essentially so fat basement dweller dudes can pretened to be a sexy girl and go lesbo on space playboy and then ****** with the love scene.

Good thing is I can actually feel good knowing that's how Liara is used, and how about every other LI is vastly superior both in value and morality.

#475
Beerfish

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I agree with 1, 3 and part of 4 and 5. The only real probelm in my mind with liara was the 100% reversal in personality in me2 but they did a reasonable effort of fixing that in lotsb.

I didn't mind the kid part at the beginning to me it showed shep still had some sympathy for a child despite all he/she had went through. The ending bratalyst was a farce and the dreams made no sense. My biggest beef is #3. They had a great voice actor and a great ancilliary villain in tim and made him saren 2.0 all in the space of 30 seconds, It smacked of the da2 double villian ending.