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[Isichar]

grey_wind wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Theres alot of different points here that probably could have filled up 3 separate threads. Ill summarize how i feel and it may end off resembling what youv said.
Alot of the story is forced. They try and force you to feel a certain way, and only when its done with the best characters and really well thought out did it work, when it wasnt it became more and more clear just how little control you actually had.

For example. I didnt care about the only child in the series been killed off. I had no reason to, but its continually used to make "my shepard" suffer internally.

I think one of the worst examples was when the genophage arc is over and Liara comes to ask how you're feeling. Your options are "I miss the Virmire victim" or "Leave me alone". What, why can't I say I miss Mordin, I just saw the guy get blown up?! Or anybody else for that matter that died under me?
I agree that in trying to flesh out a personality for Shep, they took away a lot of the control the players had over their Shepards that they were used to from ME1 and 2. 

Its really all over the game. Choosing the final game to try and develop more personality into a character that each player felt they embodied in the previous 2 games was not necessary nor needed for shepards character. Those choices i made on my character creation screen 2 games ago let me have a feel for my individual shepard and what was important to him/her, it worked and they didnt need to put much ingame regarding those choices for me to feel like they mattered.
Why does bioware feel they needed to force further characteristics on Shepard on the final installment when the players could choose what they cared about previously?

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

IsaacShep wrote...

You forgot about another HUGE writer's pet. Garrus. Who can 'comfort' you after the failure on Thessia? Only Garrus. No other LI has any dialogue after Thessia, neither Tali, Samantha, Cortez, Ashley, Kaidan, not even talking ME2 LIs.

Garrus can die, and is about as important to the plot as a sack of potatoes.

[Rogue Unit]

Mr.House wrote...

BadlyBrowned wrote...

Doom Lich wrote...

I think the whole big circle jerk on these forums is getting a bit much. By your definition any main character you don't find enough worth in is a writer's pet, but Liara has just as much purpose in the game as ANY other main character.

Liara has one advantage. 

Plot armor. Not even Shepard has that. 

True, but joker also has Liara's heavy duty plot armor, same as Hackett.

One could argue that Joker's is thicker considering Liara can be dead at the end of ME3.

[Mr.House]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

You forgot about another HUGE writer's pet. Garrus. Who can 'comfort' you after the failure on Thessia? Only Garrus. No other LI has any dialogue after Thessia, neither Tali, Samantha, Cortez, Ashley, Kaidan, not even talking ME2 LIs.

Garrus can die, and is about as important to the plot as a sack of potatoes.

Does not changet he fact you are forced into a friendship with him no matter what. It's worse in ME3.

Also Liara can die, so if death=not writers pet then liara is not one according to your logic.

Modifié par Mr.House, 14 avril 2012 - 05:51 .

[Raiil]

Agreed. I knew of Kai Leng periphally so I wasn't overly surprised to see him, but a little exposition would have been nice.

ETA: And I'm pretty sure 90% of my Liara dislike is due to the fact that BioWare continues to shove their blueberry waifu in my face all the time. I don't care for any of her personalities and I wanted to consign her to the armoury in part 3 just to get her out of Miranda's room.

Modifié par Valentia X, 14 avril 2012 - 05:51 .

[ShadowNinja1129]

I agree that Kai Leng was INCREDIBLY awkward as far as injection into the story. He was just an obnoxious d*ck that came out of nowhere like he was the ultimate baddy.

I'm surprised I didn't see you complain about the Crucible though, that big fat MacGuffin awkwardly driving the plot ever since its sudden and convenient discovery on Mars at the beginning of the game. Talk about the biggest load of bull. We don't even know what the thing does (other than "create new possibilities"). And that whole "create new possibilities" illusion gets destroyed anyway that your EMS, not the Crucible, determines which options you are offered. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Mr.House wrote...

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

You forgot about another HUGE writer's pet. Garrus. Who can 'comfort' you after the failure on Thessia? Only Garrus. No other LI has any dialogue after Thessia, neither Tali, Samantha, Cortez, Ashley, Kaidan, not even talking ME2 LIs.

Garrus can die, and is about as important to the plot as a sack of potatoes.

Does not changet he fact you are forced into a friendship with him no matter what. It's worse in ME3.

Also Liara can die, so if death=not writers pet then liara is not one according to your logic.

You can not recruit Garrus in ME1, ignore him through most of ME2 and then kill him off, and then never see him in ME3. The same cannot be said for Liara.

[SpazzKidJake]

I approve, pretty damn accurate on most of what you say.Hopefully we find out this is all just our own personal indoctrination test. We are gonna wake up, controller in hand and rock the reapers. The real kind of mind F*** Mass effect is known for lol.

[shepskisaac]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

You forgot about another HUGE writer's pet. Garrus. Who can 'comfort' you after the failure on Thessia? Only Garrus. No other LI has any dialogue after Thessia, neither Tali, Samantha, Cortez, Ashley, Kaidan, not even talking ME2 LIs.

Garrus can die, and is about as important to the plot as a sack of potatoes.

And yet he recieves A TON of content. More than plot-armored EDI or Vega.

[Doom Lich]

BadlyBrowned wrote...

Doom Lich wrote...

I think the whole big circle jerk on these forums is getting a bit much. By your definition any main character you don't find enough worth in is a writer's pet, but Liara has just as much purpose in the game as ANY other main character.

Liara has one advantage. 

Plot armor. Not even Shepard has that. 

I'll give you that. But they can't just let you kill everyone.

[Mr.House]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

You forgot about another HUGE writer's pet. Garrus. Who can 'comfort' you after the failure on Thessia? Only Garrus. No other LI has any dialogue after Thessia, neither Tali, Samantha, Cortez, Ashley, Kaidan, not even talking ME2 LIs.

Garrus can die, and is about as important to the plot as a sack of potatoes.

Does not changet he fact you are forced into a friendship with him no matter what. It's worse in ME3.

Also Liara can die, so if death=not writers pet then liara is not one according to your logic.

You can not recruit Garrus in ME1, ignore him through most of ME2 and then kill him off, and then never see him in ME3. The same cannot be said for Liara.

You can ignore Liara until certain moments. Again, so ya Garrus is just as much as a writers pet as Liara and Joker. The fact that you have to ignore the stuff just proves it.

[Sifr]

While I'll conceed Kai Leng was incredibly forced, as well the Starchild.

I disagree with Liara and the points on Cerberus.

Liara was somewhat stilted in the first game, but that was because she wasn't good with people. She'd been socially deprived from people after spending nearly 50 years going from dig-site to dig-site. Shepard forced her to interact with other people. While its possible this might actually reinforce the writers pet standpoint, I've always felt that, like Tali towards Male Shep, Liara has been in love with Shepard from the moment they met as a lot of their interaction, even if not romanced has this strong vibe to it. Liara became a stronger person because of Shepard, so this isn't a bad thing.

Cerberus was, at least, a refreshing look into the universe of Mass Effect and that humans don't always get along or have the same goals. I don't find the retcon too much of a deal in that Shepard may not have asked questions, given their priority was to stop Saren at the time.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 14 avril 2012 - 06:01 .

[Doom Lich]

The series needs to have main characters other than Shepard. You can't argue they are all writers pets just because they have a large story role.

[Dyorgarel Inkin]

I agree with everything, especially the case of Liara and Kai Leng. You are a smart one, Xion66. Well done.

[Vexille]

The Liara defenders bringing up garrus, Tali etc... You are forgetting one thing... LIara CANT DIE. She has the be all end all plot armor of squaddies. I dont like Garrus? I dont recruit him in ME1 and I let him die in ME2. Dont like Tali? Have her get headshotted in the vents. Dislike Kaidan and Ashley? Nuke one on Virmire and waste the other on the citadel.

But Liara... She is forced on EVERYONE. Every other recurring squaddie can be killed off if the player wants nothing to do with them. Liara however is a writers pet with impenetrable plot armor who will be forced on us in ME3 no matter what.

BTW I actually LIKE Liara, however there is no arguing that she is forced. If you could actually kill off Liara in ME1 r the shadow broker DLC most of these liar "hate" threads wouldnt be here. The problem with Liara is you cant get rid of her

[Vexille]

I agree with Kai Leng being stupid as well... I really feel Harbinger should have had more screen time etc then Kai Leng. (My 1st playthrough I had no idea who he was and why I was supposed to care about him)

[SNascimento]

That is why Miranda should be in Kai Leng's place.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Vexille wrote...

The Liara defenders bringing up garrus, Tali etc... You are forgetting one thing... LIara CANT DIE. She has the be all end all plot armor of squaddies. I dont like Garrus? I dont recruit him in ME1 and I let him die in ME2. Dont like Tali? Have her get headshotted in the vents. Dislike Kaidan and Ashley? Nuke one on Virmire and waste the other on the citadel.

But Liara... She is forced on EVERYONE. Every other recurring squaddie can be killed off if the player wants nothing to do with them. Liara however is a writers pet with impenetrable plot armor who will be forced on us in ME3 no matter what.

BTW I actually LIKE Liara, however there is no arguing that she is forced. If you could actually kill off Liara in ME1 r the shadow broker DLC most of these liar "hate" threads wouldnt be here. The problem with Liara is you cant get rid of her

QFT. Also, let's not forget the little matter of that flashback.

[Rogue Unit]

Vexille wrote...

The Liara defenders bringing up garrus, Tali etc... You are forgetting one thing... LIara CANT DIE. She has the be all end all plot armor of squaddies. I dont like Garrus? I dont recruit him in ME1 and I let him die in ME2. Dont like Tali? Have her get headshotted in the vents. Dislike Kaidan and Ashley? Nuke one on Virmire and waste the other on the citadel.

But Liara... She is forced on EVERYONE. Every other recurring squaddie can be killed off if the player wants nothing to do with them. Liara however is a writers pet with impenetrable plot armor who will be forced on us in ME3 no matter what.

BTW I actually LIKE Liara, however there is no arguing that she is forced. If you could actually kill off Liara in ME1 r the shadow broker DLC most of these liar "hate" threads wouldnt be here. The problem with Liara is you cant get rid of her

So is Joker.

[shepskisaac]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

QFT. Also, let's not forget the little matter of that flashback.

Thankfully it will most likely get fixed anyway (and already isn't a problem if you romance Ash or Kaidan). But yeah, for Sheps that didn't romance anyone, they will obviously be always getting Liara, even after the fix, no matter if they hated her

[grey_wind]

Isichar wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Theres alot of different points here that probably could have filled up 3 separate threads. Ill summarize how i feel and it may end off resembling what youv said.
Alot of the story is forced. They try and force you to feel a certain way, and only when its done with the best characters and really well thought out did it work, when it wasnt it became more and more clear just how little control you actually had.

For example. I didnt care about the only child in the series been killed off. I had no reason to, but its continually used to make "my shepard" suffer internally.

I think one of the worst examples was when the genophage arc is over and Liara comes to ask how you're feeling. Your options are "I miss the Virmire victim" or "Leave me alone". What, why can't I say I miss Mordin, I just saw the guy get blown up?! Or anybody else for that matter that died under me?
I agree that in trying to flesh out a personality for Shep, they took away a lot of the control the players had over their Shepards that they were used to from ME1 and 2. 

Its really all over the game. Choosing the final game to try and develop more personality into a character that each player felt they embodied in the previous 2 games was not necessary nor needed for shepards character. Those choices i made on my character creation screen 2 games ago let me have a feel for my individual shepard and what was important to him/her, it worked and they didnt need to put much ingame regarding those choices for me to feel like they mattered.
Why does bioware feel they needed to force further characteristics on Shepard on the final installment when the players could choose what they cared about previously?

Absolutely agree. If they felt like Shep needed more personality, why not give the option to choose? Say, after Thessia, somebody like Garrus asks how you're feeling: you can reply that you're fine or you feel really bad, and this could shape your dialogue as you interact with the rest of the squad when you discuss Thessia with them.
One of my favourite small moments comes from LOTSB, when Liara asks how you're feeling. Shep has three responses: hopeful, worried, frustrated - all of them lead to very different Sheps and his/her feelings about the reaper threat. 

[Isichar]

Vexille wrote...

The Liara defenders bringing up garrus, Tali etc... You are forgetting one thing... LIara CANT DIE. She has the be all end all plot armor of squaddies. I dont like Garrus? I dont recruit him in ME1 and I let him die in ME2. Dont like Tali? Have her get headshotted in the vents. Dislike Kaidan and Ashley? Nuke one on Virmire and waste the other on the citadel.

But Liara... She is forced on EVERYONE. Every other recurring squaddie can be killed off if the player wants nothing to do with them. Liara however is a writers pet with impenetrable plot armor who will be forced on us in ME3 no matter what.

BTW I actually LIKE Liara, however there is no arguing that she is forced. If you could actually kill off Liara in ME1 r the shadow broker DLC most of these liar "hate" threads wouldnt be here. The problem with Liara is you cant get rid of her

Bioware can force liara on me anyday

[Sweawm]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Vexille wrote...

The Liara defenders bringing up garrus, Tali etc... You are forgetting one thing... LIara CANT DIE. She has the be all end all plot armor of squaddies. I dont like Garrus? I dont recruit him in ME1 and I let him die in ME2. Dont like Tali? Have her get headshotted in the vents. Dislike Kaidan and Ashley? Nuke one on Virmire and waste the other on the citadel.

But Liara... She is forced on EVERYONE. Every other recurring squaddie can be killed off if the player wants nothing to do with them. Liara however is a writers pet with impenetrable plot armor who will be forced on us in ME3 no matter what.

BTW I actually LIKE Liara, however there is no arguing that she is forced. If you could actually kill off Liara in ME1 r the shadow broker DLC most of these liar "hate" threads wouldnt be here. The problem with Liara is you cant get rid of her

QFT. Also, let's not forget the little matter of that flashback.

The largest 'oversight' in the games right
Not that Bioware intended such oversight....

[Mr.House]

Vexille wrote...

The Liara defenders bringing up garrus, Tali etc... You are forgetting one thing... LIara CANT DIE.

Stopped reading there, she can in fact die, just like Joker, another writers pet. But of course no one cares about Joker or Garrus, everyone just loves to gang up on Liara. As I said if death is a thing that makes a writers pet then guess what? Liara and Joker are not writers pets. Garrus, Joker and Liara are writers pets, I'm a Liara fan and I even accept the fact she is one. Why you people can't accept the fact that Garrus and Joekr are just boggles the mind. It's like accepting the fact they are writers pets will make you dislike them.

[Vexille]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Vexille wrote...

The Liara defenders bringing up garrus, Tali etc... You are forgetting one thing... LIara CANT DIE. She has the be all end all plot armor of squaddies. I dont like Garrus? I dont recruit him in ME1 and I let him die in ME2. Dont like Tali? Have her get headshotted in the vents. Dislike Kaidan and Ashley? Nuke one on Virmire and waste the other on the citadel.

But Liara... She is forced on EVERYONE. Every other recurring squaddie can be killed off if the player wants nothing to do with them. Liara however is a writers pet with impenetrable plot armor who will be forced on us in ME3 no matter what.

BTW I actually LIKE Liara, however there is no arguing that she is forced. If you could actually kill off Liara in ME1 r the shadow broker DLC most of these liar "hate" threads wouldnt be here. The problem with Liara is you cant get rid of her

So is Joker.

joker is also a writers pet, but he has a much more minor role.

Liara is a squaddie who cant die... The only one... writers pet