554 réponses à ce sujet

[Garlador]

I'll be honest... I have absolutely ZERO interest in Liara... and especially not space brat... And I did roll my eyes every single time Liara was trying to force herself upon me.

That's why I picked Tali; if I wanted to share a special moment with someone, I'll hang out with the chicken-legged girl.

I have NO idea why Liara was my Shepard's final thought. None at all.

[Seboist]

Sparatus wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Overlord is also completely pointless as well.  The Cerberus controlled Geth plot goes nowhere and if you keep David in the program then you get absolutely nothing from it.

That would have actually made Rannoch make more sense if Cerberus gained control of the geth.

Then I could have had my renegade given the option of taking control of the geth. Another choice, just like in Tuchanka where I can sabotage the cure, and still get krogan and salarian support.

Yeah,It would have been great if keeping David in Overlord and selling Legion to Cerberus would have been the key variables for gaining control of the Geth.

I also "like" how Xen lost all interest in gaining control of the Geth in ME3. Yet ANOTHER plot point that goes nowhere.

[k-mysta]

No, thank YOU for a good read. Generally agree on all your points, even if I did like Liara but gravitated towards Miranda's as...conflicted personality and would have liked to see way more of the ME2 squadmates. I loved that ragtag group of daredevils but I understand Bioware tied themselves up in a knot with the consequences of the suicide mission. Also, the fact that Liara was the only one not in the ME2 squad was probably why she got so much time in 3. If she couldn't die, she was the only one writers were guaranteed all players would be able to interact with. Then again, that could just as easily be explained by your favouritism theory. Good job

[doodiebody]

I'm definitely glad my "canon" LI was Liara. Initially, I thought all those scenes with Liara were only there because she was my LI. I was a bit surprised to find out nearly all of them happen regardless.

[sw04ca]

I assumed that the increased power of Cerberus is related to subsidies by the Reapers. The whole organization top-to-bottom is indoctrinated.

[Eliantariel]

Kanon777 wrote...

Chrillze wrote...

Kanon777 wrote...

the leak from nov2011 said you COULD kill liara during the Udina Coup, but people here started complaining about that (calling it Virmire 2.0/terrible idea) and Bioware decided to remove it...

and NOW people are complaing that she can't be killed?!? LOL

 I also remember how people hated the "we fight or we die" quote from the leaked demo in 2011, they also complained about the "rpg mode" vs "action mode" in the leaked demo. Bioware removed both of those things in the main game (at least MY pc version had no rpg/action mode to choose).

Its things like that (also Da2:Legacy and DA2:MotA) that make me believe in Biowares hability to take feedback and give more of what players wanted  in the EC.

Yes I remember that too. Bioware did change some things people were moaning about. The problem is: you can never satisfy every fan.

Bioware gave Tali and Garrus more screen time in ME3 and made them romancable because of the large fanbase. And the fanbase for Liara is quite large too. There may be "writers pets" but I think it is more about "fan pets".

If you want to have for all LIs the same amount of screen time (personal missions + dialog...) then all LIs would have only a very small content in the games and fans would again complain. To have much content for all LIs would have resulted in a game twice as big and that again is a problem of limited resources. It would have been better to have a smaller amount of LIs in the games so that for every LI a satisfying amount of screentime could be implemented. Or other ressources reduced - instead of writing a Joker/Edi or Tali/Garrus romance they could have given Shepards LIs more screentime. It would be fair to have for every LI the same screentime but there were too many LIs and with ME3 even new LIs that it was too much to handle for Bioware. And LIs should have a kind of plot protection - so no cheating, death if romanced.

I think the main problem is that you cannot really role-play Shepard as you fully like it. Especially in ME3 some paragon and renegade dialog options are nearly identical and you have much auto-dialog and less options to role-play your Shepard.

There is no need to kill of a character - don't forget that a minimal amount of squadmates is needed for the game mechanic. But it would be no problem if you could at least select dialog options to be nice or mean to a character.

You are forced to be a "best friend" not only for Garrus or Tali or Liara as mentioned, but for others too, for example:

- EDI: you can't be really mean to her. If I want to role-play a Shepard who hates AIs you are practically forced to tell her how valuable and great she is... and it would have been nice to hear from the other NPCs not only how "hot" her body is but at least some concerns about her.

- VS: I can only speak for Kaidan because I haven't seen Ashley in a playthrough yet. On Mars you can express your feelings and show him that you are unhappy with him. But then he gets injured and Shepard is so worried and in the hospital has to give him that "I need you" speach as if Kaidan would be the best friend ever. Which may be fitting for some Shepards but  not for all. You are forced to be worried about him even if you/your Shepard don't give a damn about him. And in the hospital dialog they could have skipped the renegade dialog completely because it is nearly identical (especially the spectre dialog) with the paragon dialog. So you have to avoid the dialog and not visiting him to be not to nice to him. Which can lead to his death later.

And that is the other problem: I would like to show characters that I don't like them. That doesn't mean that I like to see them dead or kill them off.

So it is not only Tali or Garrus or Liara which are written as if they are your best friends, this problem occurs with other characters too. And again we have the problem with limited ressources so that differing dialog options for all characters and all conversations cannot exist.

I think we already know that Mass Effect is not a full role-playing game - especially in ME3 it feels more like an interactive movie.

Modifié par Eliantariel, 15 avril 2012 - 06:32 .

[indyracing]

I just want to say tha the first post was a great read!

I have never experienced Mass Effect outside the games, and I had no idea who Kai Leng was or why he was important.  Until I read this post, I didn't know he was a book character (and I have no intention of ever spending any money on anything related to Mass Effect ever again - unless a Mass Effect 4 comes out and doesn't get slated by pretty much everyone like the end of Mass Effect 3 did)>

Upon reflection, I did find it strange that Anderson was with me at the end.  Only now after thinking do I realize that I didn't really feel much at all when the Illusive Man had me shoot him.  I don't think I ever felt any real connection to him (or Hackett) at any time in the entire series, and this scene would have been much more touching if someone that mattered more to me was there instead.  I WAS touched when both Mordin and Legion sacrificed themselves, however.

Cerberus - that bugged me throughout the game.  ME2 and ME3 don't make sense together, with regards to Cerberus, unless there's a huge questline that got cut.  Storywise, that was my biggest issue with ME3 (until the end).

I don't even want to touch the ending.

[Ski Mask Wei]

While I agree that writer's pet aren't cool and it is a problem with ME's writing team I think their biggest problems are crow-baring things into the plot which make no sense for the sake of ease or coolness and over-relying on player data on how they write their stories/make their games. I can live with Liara/Garrus type lovefest if the stories are well thought out but those other two problems have destroyed my faith in their writing abilities.

[KingWrex]

I always figured Liara was Shepard's confidant cause the got that mind-bond thing going from me1. It made sense to me, and honestly how can anyone hate Garrus enough to want to kill him off, him and Wrex=the bests squad mates

[Bl0dbathNBeyond]

I always felt that the transition from Cerberus being a moustache-twirling Army of Douche from the first game to Mission Impossible in the second even felt a little forced. I agree with the OP - TIM is an awesome character in terms of motivation, performance and characterization but the fact of the matter was, Cerberus was always to me those idiots who were breeding husks, Thorian Creepers, and insane Rachni just for the sake of being dumb mad scientists that loved failed plots that created out of control monsters.

Worse yet, my first Shep (and subsequently the one I played through ALL THREE GAMES) was a Sole Survivor and even had his own nightmare experience with Cerberus - you found this out in the game (and for the record, my buddy Toombs and I SMOKED that Cerberus scientist) but nobody ever remembered to let Shepard even yell at Cerberus for almost killing Shep and massacring Shep's squad.

Finally, I got a nod to this in the third game "Oh btw, yeah, Cerberus was evil, remember when you got screwed on Akuze?" That was too little, too late IMO.

Also, Kai Leng has no business being in anything outside a Soul Caliber game.

That being said, I could live with everything else. TBH I even like the cyclic symmetry between Cerberus and the indoctrinated Protheans of Javik's cycle.

I also don't think Liara was a "writers' pet" as much as an accidentally too-important character who ended up getting a lot of stage time. Whatever. When she got weird Shep dumped her for Tali. It DOES indeed feel though that she got way more screen time than any of the other LI's - somebody explain to me why I got a flashback to her at the end?

Modifié par Bl0dbathNBeyond, 15 avril 2012 - 07:57 .

[KLGChaos]

Just something I want to bring up for everyone slinging around the words "plot armor." Most of it is exagerration. It's like "OMG! This character didn't die through all three games, so he/she has plot armor." That's not plot armor. Plot armor is when a character should die, but for whatever reason, the author pulls something to keep it from happening. A great example is Sasuke is Naruto. That character has plot armor in spades. There've been several times throughout the manga when he should have been killed, like the fight with Deidara where he's heavily wounded and unable to escape a giant blast that should have destroyed him, but he just happens to develop a power he didn't have before to protect against it. Another good example would be the character caught in the explosion on Virmire magically surviving the explosion.

Just because Liara or Joker don't die throughout the series, doesn't mean they have plot armor. Liara wasn't really in a situation to really get killed in ME2, because she wasn't on the suicide mission. Neither was the Virimire survivor.

I do agree that certain characters seem to be favored, though. Whether they are or not, I don't know. However, there really is only so much they can do with the game.

As for the thread itself, the OP does bring up a few good points. The child being one... When I was first in the dream sequence, I was like "Why? What does this kid have that other characters that I was closer to didn't?" I assumed they tried to play the "children are innocent, so it's more tragic" card, but it fell flat. I also hated Kai Leng. I remember the scene on Thessia and I was like "Why is this jerk who came out of nowhere (I never read the books) making Shepard look like a wuss?"

[Shallyah]

TS2Aggie wrote...

I really dislike the fact that Liara is forced on you a lot more than any other character in ME3.

Kaidan/Ashley: 1 (Mars)
James: 2 (Mars, Palaven)
Liara: 4 (Mars, Palaven, Thessia, Eden Prime)
Garrus: 1 (Palaven)
EDI: 1 (Cerberus Base)
Tali: 2 (Disable Dreadnaught, Reaper Base)

I mean, come on. Enough is enough.

This, and you are forgetting that some of them (like Garrus or Tali) could be dead from ME2 already, so they wouldn't be there at all. Liara is there to wh0re the spotlight whether you like or not. It's boring and borderline disgusting.

That she appears in the final flashback can only be described as a direct insult to every player that does not want anything to do with her.

Modifié par Shallyah, 15 avril 2012 - 08:56 .

[Sweawm]

The Illusive Man's character I believe got really messed up near the end. It kinda made him seem far less... well, cool. The calm and patient, morally grey Illusive Man was awesome.
Plus, the 'indoctrinated' thing was far from a twist, it was a weak plot point that everyone knew the second Cerberus showed up on Mars. They're indoctrinated. It would have been a great plot twist if we actually found out the Illusive Man was still in control.
A character ruined for the sake of adding the weakest of all enemies in ME3.

Kai Leng... it's pretty much agreed that Kai Leng was terrible. It was the Deception Kai Leng, not the Retribution Kai Leng. I refuse to believe that they are the same two people. The Kai Leng that fought Shepard in Mass Effect 3 was the twin brother, with that brother also called Kai Leng who was way more badass and actually was an awesome character.

[Senario]

Agree with this so much, Granted I actually enjoyed Cerberus/The Illusive man (probably because of their time in ME2) but for those who haven't read the books. Kai Leng isn't a very memorable villain, and Liara isn't exactly a character that EVERYBODY enjoys.

Heck I found her personality bland in ME1 and only romanced her due to lack of any better choices (Ashley isn't any better). The fact that she gets so much screen time/development, can't be refused/killed off. Really just makes it terrible for ppl who don't like her. Nearly every other character can be refused or killed. Liara just walks into your cabin a bit too many times if you don't romance her, its really awkward.

Put the time you spend with Liara even as a "friend" together with her plot armor as the Shadow broker and "prothean expert"..well you now have a problematic character in a game about choice.

[Allan Schumacher]

Do Mars and Palaven count the same as other levels with forced companions? Vega makes those two as well, and it seems like the reason is more because there's no actual alternative at that time.

I certainly wouldn't think that anyone feels Vega gets more of the writers' attention than, say, Garrus.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 15 avril 2012 - 09:12 .

[IanPolaris]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do Mars and Palaven count the same as other levels with forced companions? Vega makes those two as well, and it seems like the reason is more because there's no actual alternative at that time.

I certainly wouldn't think that anyone feels Vega gets more of the writers' attention than, say, Garrus.

I think they do, but you actually are forced to lose Vega after only 20% (or less) of the Mars mission in favor of Liara.  The point is that Liara is a spotlight hog and there is nothing a player can do about it and that's not right.  You should at least have the option (after Mars or Thessia) of sending her to Hackett for War Assets.

-Polaris

[Fredvdp]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do Mars and Palaven count the same as other levels with forced companions? Vega makes those two as well, and it seems like the reason is more because there's no actual alternative at that time.

You can recruit Javik before the Palaven mission but you can't select him in the character selection screen.

[ComfortablyNumb]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do Mars and Palaven count the same as other levels with forced companions? Vega makes those two as well, and it seems like the reason is more because there's no actual alternative at that time.

I certainly wouldn't think that anyone feels Vega gets more of the writers' attention than, say, Garrus.

Vega is completely new character, so it can be reasonded, that we may need more time to know him better. And still he gets 2 missions. We know Liara since the beginning, and she's a must have on 4...

Edit: yes, I am speaking of "us" - meaning those who actually played ME1 and ME2.

Modifié par mrufka_z, 15 avril 2012 - 09:17 .

[Allan Schumacher]

IanPolaris wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do Mars and Palaven count the same as other levels with forced companions? Vega makes those two as well, and it seems like the reason is more because there's no actual alternative at that time.

I certainly wouldn't think that anyone feels Vega gets more of the writers' attention than, say, Garrus.

I think they do, but you actually are forced to lose Vega after only 20% (or less) of the Mars mission in favor of Liara.  The point is that Liara is a spotlight hog and there is nothing a player can do about it and that's not right.  You should at least have the option (after Mars or Thessia) of sending her to Hackett for War Assets.

-Polaris

I felt the Mars scene was balanced with Liara (as opposed to Vega) gets replaced with Garrus on Palaven.  But yes, it seems there's limited recourse for players that don't care for Liara.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 15 avril 2012 - 09:18 .

[Senario]

IanPolaris wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do Mars and Palaven count the same as other levels with forced companions? Vega makes those two as well, and it seems like the reason is more because there's no actual alternative at that time.

I certainly wouldn't think that anyone feels Vega gets more of the writers' attention than, say, Garrus.

I think they do, but you actually are forced to lose Vega after only 20% (or less) of the Mars mission in favor of Liara.  The point is that Liara is a spotlight hog and there is nothing a player can do about it and that's not right.  You should at least have the option (after Mars or Thessia) of sending her to Hackett for War Assets.

-Polaris

PLEASE, If you can't kill her because she is the shadow broker. At least let it be possible to send her to Hackett to help with the Crucible. A prothean expert would be perfect in what was considerd a "Prothean Machine".

[ShdwFox7]

I agree and disagree with the OP

    My first beef is with Kai Leng. I really don't understand why so many people beat up on him. Yes, he's foreign to anybody who hasn't read the books. But at it's core, ME as a series has never vastly appealed to a casual audience (think Skyrim in that sense). And much of that hardcore audience has probably read the books, and already know how deadly Kai Leng is. Finally consider the fact that Kai Leng is at least a known character in any sense. How do you think everyone would have felt if an entirely new character was introduced in the plot; one that was completely foreign? (I discuss this more in detail in the fourth paragraph)

    The OP goes further into detail basically discussing that Kai Leng ruins ME3 because he wasn't a pre-established character (like those in previous games). I find this part utterly ridiculous. I've never heard someone say "Thane ruined ME2 because he wasn't already established in ME1". What I'm saying here is that as a reader (to a story) you need to give the character, and their development, a chance. Yes he is established at the end of a trilogy (the third game), but he was also established very early in that portion of the trilogy. Kai Leng probably got more air time than many of the new squad mates in ME2 (i.e. Mordin, Jack, Grunt, Thane, Samara, and Legion) and yet, most of those squad mates have devoted followers despite this.

    Dislike the shot at Anderson because it is again, a book reference. Anderson met Kai Leng in the books, it would have been silly of him not to give Shepard the "heads up" in ME3. I also think "cyber-ninja" works in Mass Effect. It's canon that kinetic barriers don't do anything against melee weapons or other "low-speed" attacks. So don't you think their would be at least a handful of people in ME's universe that would try to exploit this weakness (think Thane's entrance in ME2)?

    But finally, and most importantly, I think people need to consider Kai Leng as more of a representation of Cerberus rather than looking at Kai Leng the individual. The writers should have really made this aspect more apparent. It's obvious that the Illusive Man wasn't going to be a combative antagonist for Shepard. The writers perceived this and decided a new combative antagonist needed to be introduced. Consider for a moment Saren's role in ME1 as Sovereign's figurehead. It would have been really out of place if Sovereign fought Shepard in a one on one duel (in the way TIM would also be). And how do you think ME3 would have turned out if every time we got to a major point in the plot only to be met by another guy using an Atlas or some other miscellaneous character? It's a lot easier for a reader to become emotionally attached to some part of the plot if they can put a face on it (i.e. Kai Leng). Can you think of any other pre-established antagonists that could have been used to confront Shepard that also represent Cerberus? I can't think of a single one, books or otherwise.



    I agree with the Liara comment. Their was a few times where I felt like her character was trying to hard to be your friend. I liked the Liara presented in Mass Effect: Retribution. She still felt like the familiar Liara we knew in ME1, but at the same time she also felt a little more capable and independent. Then ME2 rolled around and she has this completely dark side to her character. That after one hundred-plus years, somehow, two years of her life managed to have a radical change on her personality. It was shortly after this where I felt like her being your friend was pushed too hard on player. The first time was when she talked with Shepard in his/her quarters on the Normandy (Shadow Broker DLC). And then again at various times in ME3. Maybe Bioware should have took the time to implement some kind of "best buddy program" for ME3's dialogue. For example, if you responded positively to Garrus's comments, he would become your best friend (instead of Liara). Shepard would then give all introspective and confession to Garrus.



    Not sure if I completely understand with the Cerberus shot, so I mostly disagree. I swear at some point in the game it's mentioned that Cerberus was taking regular civilians and indoctrinating them into their army. This would explain the endless supply of troops to some extent. And we know virtually nothing about the true Cerberus. Even Miranda mentions something in ME2 to the affect of "we're very well funded, although probably only The Illusive Man knows exactly how much".



    Completely and utterly agree with the Catalyst and ending comments. Didn't even read your explanation, because it's just that unnecessary. Both elements are just forced upon the player.


On a side note I hardly visit these forums now that I'm (for the most part) over the ending. Sorry in advance if you expect a response

[dgcatanisiri]

IanPolaris wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do Mars and Palaven count the same as other levels with forced companions? Vega makes those two as well, and it seems like the reason is more because there's no actual alternative at that time.

I certainly wouldn't think that anyone feels Vega gets more of the writers' attention than, say, Garrus.

I think they do, but you actually are forced to lose Vega after only 20% (or less) of the Mars mission in favor of Liara.  The point is that Liara is a spotlight hog and there is nothing a player can do about it and that's not right.  You should at least have the option (after Mars or Thessia) of sending her to Hackett for War Assets.

-Polaris

It also kinda bugs me - here we have this new character, and, instead of getting this opportunity to showcase him, show WHY this newly introduced character should be a major player in this late stage, he gets shuffled off and reenter Liara, who, at least if you played Lair of the Shadow Broker, you had gameplay and interaction with relatively recently, for no reason. Liara could easily have been a voice over the comm, trying to get the info from the prothean archives, while Shepard, Ashley/Kaidan, and James fight through the facility, then, when Shepard's team gets to the archive, Shepard orders him to summon the shuttle and bring it in, letting the rest of that section play out as is.

[Allan Schumacher]

PLEASE, If you can't kill her because she is the shadow broker. At least let it be possible to send her to Hackett to help with the Crucible. A prothean expert would be perfect in what was considerd a "Prothean Machine".

I think the feedback is valid, but I wouldn't expect any of that stuff to change for ME3 unfortunately. My guess is that the focus for the upcoming DLC will be purely related to the ending.

[Senario]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

PLEASE, If you can't kill her because she is the shadow broker. At least let it be possible to send her to Hackett to help with the Crucible. A prothean expert would be perfect in what was considerd a "Prothean Machine".

I think the feedback is valid, but I wouldn't expect any of that stuff to change for ME3 unfortunately. My guess is that the focus for the upcoming DLC will be purely related to the ending.

Oh by no means did I try to imply it should be in the upcoming DLC. I was just a bit peeved before about how Liara feels forced in ME3...Seeing others agree with me just reminds me of how many times I thought that during the game.

I just want them to work on the ending dlc, thats it. Minor complaints or problems are minor at this point. And unimportant.

I fully expect nothing to be done about it. Though if I had it my way (lol not gonna happen). I would have moved the Time capsule and mind meld scenes to "romance only" and maybe change the dialogue a bit when you talk to her on the citadel. The way she says, "Just....Friends" really feels awkward.

Modifié par Senario, 15 avril 2012 - 09:30 .

[LordSlavius]

Most of your points essentially hint at this being the most railroaded of all the Mass Effects, and that's true. All the love interests are handled poorly, except for Liara (heck even Kaidan and Ashley are missing for half the game).

I think the most obvious point about this game being railroaded down one path no matter what you do is the feckin' auto-dialogue. On its own it's an annoyance (particularly when stood against the other two games where you chose all of your dialogue), but taken as a whole it's actually a symptom of a much greater illness with the game.

Throughout the course of Mass Effect 3, Shepard becomes less and less the player's own image that they've built up through the trilogy, and more directed towards what Bioware wanted them to be.