554 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Karrie788 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Joker is not a side character at all, he is one of the major characters in the whole series.

-Who was the one who killed Sovie? Joker
-Who is the reason why SHepard died? Joker
-Who did TIM get to pilot the ship? Joker
-Who unshackled EDI and savedt he ship? Joker
-Who flew the Normandy during the suicide mission? Joker
-Who helped Shepard survive the suicide mission? Joekr witht he help of two squadmates
-Who saved Shepard in Arrival? Joker
-Who got Shepard off Earth? Joker
-Who flew you for the whole war? Joker
-Who helped you during the Rannoch Reaper battle? Joker
-Who was flyign the ship leading the fleets in Sol? Joker


Ya that's a minor character all right. As for the "you can ignore Joker and Garrus except for important bits. you can do the something to Liara. The only thing I agree with you is the flashback, but ;et's be real, ME2 Li's got screwed anyways. Also I stopped reading because you said Liara can't die, that's false. It's been proven she can.

Except you're not forced on a friendship with Joker. And he's the pilot, of course he's important to the plot.

Are you referring to the beam when you talk about Liara dying?

Also if you are an donkey's rear to Joker after Thessia, you can lose the humorous Joker and he is no longer your friend.  The dialog can change (and does change) dramatically so you are not forced to be friends with Joker.

-Polaris

[Mr.House]

IanPolaris wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Vexille wrote...

The Liara defenders bringing up garrus, Tali etc... You are forgetting one thing... LIara CANT DIE.

Stopped reading there, she can in fact die, just like Joker, another writers pet. But of course no one cares about Joker or Garrus, everyone just loves to gang up on Liara. As I said if death is a thing that makes a writers pet then guess what? Liara and Joker are not writers pets. Garrus, Joker and Liara are writers pets, I'm a Liara fan and I even accept the fact she is one. Why you people can't accept the fact that Garrus and Joekr are just boggles the mind. It's like accepting the fact they are writers pets will make you dislike them.

How?  I see no possible way that Liara can die in Mass Effect.  Zero.  None.  That is (suspiciously) unique.
  I happen to like Liara, but she is definately a writer's pet.

-Polaris

Low EMS, she dies at the beam and Joker dies on the Normandy. it's a death liek it or not. Also I know she's a writers pet, does not changet he fact Joker is a worse writers pet then Liara is and will ever be imo.

[Rogue Unit]

Vexille wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Vexille wrote...

I think many of the so called Liara "Fans" need to step back and just think about how ridiculous it is to defend Liara's plot armor.

I am not less of a "fan" because I recognize that she is forced on players whether you like her or not. THe extra special treatment She gets compared to other squadmates is more often then not what generates the hate, not the character itself

I'm not defending her plot amor. I'm arguing against the stupidity of the people arguing that they should be able to kill everyone they don't like so they're never forced to interact wth a disliked character. That's ridiculous.

You start by saying you arent defending her plot armor... and then you pretty much defend her plot armor by saying those who dont think she should have it are stupid.

Let me clarify. (See what I did there?)

If you think every character should be able to be killed a replaced with a double just so Johnny doesn't have to listen to someone he dislikes talk to him, you're an idiot. This goes for Garrus, Wrex, Blasto and Zaeed.

You're reason for wanting to kill a loyal squadmate is what makes you an idiot, not the fact that you dislike her plot armor.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 14 avril 2012 - 06:57 .

[Vexille]

Every other squadmate from ME1 and 2 can be killed, thats the problem. If they hadnt set the standard people wouldnt have come to expect it. Liara is not however the only writers pet, as some have pointed out Garrus is too. The issue is you can avoid Garrus by killing him if you dont like him. Liara is there no matter what, which is an issue

[Mr.House]

IanPolaris wrote...

Karrie788 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Joker is not a side character at all, he is one of the major characters in the whole series.

-Who was the one who killed Sovie? Joker
-Who is the reason why SHepard died? Joker
-Who did TIM get to pilot the ship? Joker
-Who unshackled EDI and savedt he ship? Joker
-Who flew the Normandy during the suicide mission? Joker
-Who helped Shepard survive the suicide mission? Joekr witht he help of two squadmates
-Who saved Shepard in Arrival? Joker
-Who got Shepard off Earth? Joker
-Who flew you for the whole war? Joker
-Who helped you during the Rannoch Reaper battle? Joker
-Who was flyign the ship leading the fleets in Sol? Joker


Ya that's a minor character all right. As for the "you can ignore Joker and Garrus except for important bits. you can do the something to Liara. The only thing I agree with you is the flashback, but ;et's be real, ME2 Li's got screwed anyways. Also I stopped reading because you said Liara can't die, that's false. It's been proven she can.

Except you're not forced on a friendship with Joker. And he's the pilot, of course he's important to the plot.

Are you referring to the beam when you talk about Liara dying?

Also if you are an donkey's rear to Joker after Thessia, you can lose the humorous Joker and he is no longer your friend.  The dialog can change (and does change) dramatically so you are not forced to be friends with Joker.

-Polaris

And you can be rude to Liara many times and even reject Liara's gift, thus you are not forced friends with her. Liara and Joker all have forced friendship scenes, you can still be an ass to them in later dialog.

[Mr.House]

Vexille wrote...

Every other squadmate from ME1 and 2 can be killed, thats the problem. If they hadnt set the standard people wouldnt have come to expect it. Liara is not however the only writers pet, as some have pointed out Garrus is too. The issue is you can avoid Garrus by killing him if you dont like him. Liara is there no matter what, which is an issue

And the flaw with killing a character off that you don't like in one game is they might change in the next game. Hated Garrus in ME, didn't care for him in ME2, liked him alot in ME3. Good thing I did not kill him. Same with Tali. In fact killing Tali would mean I would have to choose between the Geth and Quarians no thank you.

Modifié par Mr.House, 14 avril 2012 - 07:00 .

[IanPolaris]

somewherenoplace wrote...
I think they should've done more with TIM as he actually ended up becoming more one dimensional in ME3. Providing a way for us to take a route that sides with TIM in 3 like they were teasing in 2 would've made more sense and done more justice to his character. Even if he ends up indoctrinated you could still take his place. I think that would've made him feel like more of a writer's pet, but been better for the game. It wouldn't be logistically possible as it would involve providing a major alternate path for most of the game, but It would've truly made him a writer's pet.

I don't see why not.  The Witcher 2 had almost exactly this sort of split (Pro-King or Pro-Elf Rebel in the case of Witcher 2) that had you ending up in about the same place.  There is no reason why a particular type of Renegade Shepard couldn't have used (perhaps eventually taken over a good chunk of) Cerberus to cement a Galactic Anti-Reaper Alliance.  Of course the details would have been quite different but I can easily see the same result in the end (and basically the same sorts of final missions esp if/when Shep is forced to overthrow an indoctrinated TIM).

-Polaris

[Vexille]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Vexille wrote...

I think many of the so called Liara "Fans" need to step back and just think about how ridiculous it is to defend Liara's plot armor.

I am not less of a "fan" because I recognize that she is forced on players whether you like her or not. THe extra special treatment She gets compared to other squadmates is more often then not what generates the hate, not the character itself

I'm not defending her plot amor. I'm arguing against the stupidity of the people arguing that they should be able to kill everyone they don't like so they're never forced to interact wth a disliked character. That's ridiculous.

You start by saying you arent defending her plot armor... and then you pretty much defend her plot armor by saying those who dont think she should have it are stupid.

Let me clarify. (See what I did there?)

If you think every character should be able to be killed a replaced with a double just so Johnny doesn't have to listen to someone he dislikes talk to him, you're an idiot. This goes for Garrus, Wrex, Blasto and Zaeed.

You're reason for wanting to kill a loyal squadmate is what makes you an idiot, not the fact that you dislike her plot armor.

ah name calling, the last refuge of a weak argument. Every other Squadmate in ME1 and 2 can die, would I kill Liara? No, but do I believe there should be a way for her to die? yes.

this game is about choice, Forcing Liara into the 3 games and making her immune to everything barring the ending where EVERYONE dies is dumb

Modifié par Vexille, 14 avril 2012 - 07:02 .

[IanPolaris]

Mr.House wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Vexille wrote...

The Liara defenders bringing up garrus, Tali etc... You are forgetting one thing... LIara CANT DIE.

Stopped reading there, she can in fact die, just like Joker, another writers pet. But of course no one cares about Joker or Garrus, everyone just loves to gang up on Liara. As I said if death is a thing that makes a writers pet then guess what? Liara and Joker are not writers pets. Garrus, Joker and Liara are writers pets, I'm a Liara fan and I even accept the fact she is one. Why you people can't accept the fact that Garrus and Joekr are just boggles the mind. It's like accepting the fact they are writers pets will make you dislike them.

How?  I see no possible way that Liara can die in Mass Effect.  Zero.  None.  That is (suspiciously) unique.
  I happen to like Liara, but she is definately a writer's pet.

-Polaris

Low EMS, she dies at the beam and Joker dies on the Normandy. it's a death liek it or not. Also I know she's a writers pet, does not changet he fact Joker is a worse writers pet then Liara is and will ever be imo.

Doesn't count.  The game is over (at least as far as NPC interactions go) at that point. 

-Polaris

[Raiil]

Okay, let's clarify: Liara is the only squadmate across all three games who can't die unless you end up with the rocks fall, lol galactic destruction choice.

She's a Prothean Expert- Information Broker now Shadow Broker- oops back to Prothean Expert... If you like Liara, you likely can't get enough of her. If you're meh on her, then you can ignore her. But if you actively dislike her, BioWare's incessant need to be all bff with her gets old very quickly.


I mean, why is she my friend? I was rude and obnoxious to her the entirety of Mass Effect 1, and then she's all zomg happy to see me afterwards. If we're friends, then we have a highly dysfunctional friendship and she needs to see a therapist about her co-dependency issues. She is the only alien I have disparaged, to their face, about their culture, and it was simply because there's something about her that I don't like, not because I have an issue with asari.

It may not be completely impenetrable, but pound for pound, Liara wears the thickest plot armour in the game next to Shepard. And for some of us, it starts to chip at the edges of immersion because of how in your face it can be. I'm not stating that his friendship with Shepard can't be perfect, but Garrus can at least be passed off as a fellow soldier with a bit of a hero worship complex. Liara's is just creepy if you're mean to her.

[IanPolaris]

Mr.House wrote...

And you can be rude to Liara many times and even reject Liara's gift, thus you are not forced friends with her. Liara and Joker all have forced friendship scenes, you can still be an ass to them in later dialog.

Even if you do, Liara is still forced on you as your prime advisor and confident.  This is very much unlike Joker.  I like Liara but she is an overwhelming writer's pet and far more important in that role than Joker.  Sorry.

-Polaris

[Vexille]

Valentia X wrote...

Okay, let's clarify: Liara is the only squadmate across all three games who can't die unless you end up with the rocks fall, lol galactic destruction choice.

She's a Prothean Expert- Information Broker now Shadow Broker- oops back to Prothean Expert... If you like Liara, you likely can't get enough of her. If you're meh on her, then you can ignore her. But if you actively dislike her, BioWare's incessant need to be all bff with her gets old very quickly.


I mean, why is she my friend? I was rude and obnoxious to her the entirety of Mass Effect 1, and then she's all zomg happy to see me afterwards. If we're friends, then we have a highly dysfunctional friendship and she needs to see a therapist about her co-dependency issues. She is the only alien I have disparaged, to their face, about their culture, and it was simply because there's something about her that I don't like, not because I have an issue with asari.

It may not be completely impenetrable, but pound for pound, Liara wears the thickest plot armour in the game next to Shepard. And for some of us, it starts to chip at the edges of immersion because of how in your face it can be. I'm not stating that his friendship with Shepard can't be perfect, but Garrus can at least be passed off as a fellow soldier with a bit of a hero worship complex. Liara's is just creepy if you're mean to her.

Shepard can die twice as many times as LIara

[Raiil]

Vexille wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Okay, let's clarify: Liara is the only squadmate across all three games who can't die unless you end up with the rocks fall, lol galactic destruction choice.

She's a Prothean Expert- Information Broker now Shadow Broker- oops back to Prothean Expert... If you like Liara, you likely can't get enough of her. If you're meh on her, then you can ignore her. But if you actively dislike her, BioWare's incessant need to be all bff with her gets old very quickly.


I mean, why is she my friend? I was rude and obnoxious to her the entirety of Mass Effect 1, and then she's all zomg happy to see me afterwards. If we're friends, then we have a highly dysfunctional friendship and she needs to see a therapist about her co-dependency issues. She is the only alien I have disparaged, to their face, about their culture, and it was simply because there's something about her that I don't like, not because I have an issue with asari.

It may not be completely impenetrable, but pound for pound, Liara wears the thickest plot armour in the game next to Shepard. And for some of us, it starts to chip at the edges of immersion because of how in your face it can be. I'm not stating that his friendship with Shepard can't be perfect, but Garrus can at least be passed off as a fellow soldier with a bit of a hero worship complex. Liara's is just creepy if you're mean to her.

Shepard can die twice as many times as LIara

LOL, well... you know what I mean. For the purposes of CANON. 

[Mr.House]

Valentia X wrote...

Okay, let's clarify: Liara is the only squadmate across all three games who can't die unless you end up with the rocks fall, lol galactic destruction choice.

She's a Prothean Expert- Information Broker now Shadow Broker- oops back to Prothean Expert... If you like Liara, you likely can't get enough of her. If you're meh on her, then you can ignore her. But if you actively dislike her, BioWare's incessant need to be all bff with her gets old very quickly.


I mean, why is she my friend? I was rude and obnoxious to her the entirety of Mass Effect 1, and then she's all zomg happy to see me afterwards. If we're friends, then we have a highly dysfunctional friendship and she needs to see a therapist about her co-dependency issues. She is the only alien I have disparaged, to their face, about their culture, and it was simply because there's something about her that I don't like, not because I have an issue with asari.

.

I was rude to Tali, yet she wants to have sex with me in ME2. Answer? Bioware does not account for what happen in the past games. When you first meet a old character it will think you are good friends. After that moment you can then continue to be a friend or not. This is the same for Liara. You can treat her like crap in ME,ME2 and ME3 after the introduction. Same with Joker, Garrus and Tali. It does not change the fact the first time you met them again they are jumping up and down.

Modifié par Mr.House, 14 avril 2012 - 07:08 .

[xsdob]

Kai leng did have foreshadowing, right after you disconnect your call from the illusive man he is introduced. The entire mission to save the council built up his character and served as a good introduction.

Mass effect is a great game, nothing except the endings could actually be argued as being a detractor instead of simply a change of pace that was moderately implemented. Ultimately, a picky fanbase and the unsatisfiable rage the endings have caused will be mass effects undoing. They will nail the coffin shut with both the game and the developers still alive and will pat themselves on the back for it, which is a shame since the universe has so much more potential now.

[Psile_01]

Okay, I'm going to say what a lot of people seem unwilling to.

I don't consider Joker a writer's pet because I liked Joker. I found him amusing and always rushed to talk to him at every opportunity. I suppose some people didn't, and that is their right. I can see how Garrus can be annoying if you feel like your Shep wouldn't like him. Honestly, all characters are kind of forced to be your friend one way or another, so this treatment of Tali, Joker, Anderson, Liara, Vermire survivor, ect. can hardly be called pet behavior since everyone is your friend no matter what you do. Hell, even Jacob is nice to you even if he cheated on you and you are ultimate **** to him. Side note- FemShep in ultimate **** mode is apparently pretty tame.

I think that Liara is a pet character, but I like her a lot more in ME3 than I did in one or two. In one she was about as interesting as a ball of belly button lint. In number two she was now some kind of amazing badass information broker or something. That was jarring and it felt like the writers knew exactly where they wanted to go but weren't sure how to get there so they just skipped two years. At least Garrus gave a little forshadowing that he was frustrated with the rules at C-Sec and was in favor of a little bit of killing of Saren. Him becoming a vigilante in number two didn't come out of the blue.

At the end of the day, characters from ME1 received much more attention and time in ME3 than anyone who appeared ONLY in ME2. ME2 exclusive squad mates in ME3? Nope, not a one. ME2 love interests? Take a look on youtube. The "romance" with most ME2 continued L.I.s can be summed up in about 5 minutes out of 30 hours of game play, some less than that. This wasn't helped by the fact that some of the ME1 squad mates are very boring. In my opinion I just don't care at all what happens to Kaiden or Ashley. I didn't care what happened to Liara when I started, but by the end of ME3 she was one of my favorites.

Kai Leng annoyed the hell out of me. I hate it when characters walk around like they are hot **** out of nowhere. I had never seen or heard of him before and all of a sudden he's unstoppable. I got mad every time I saw him because I wanted my Shep to stop dicking around and just shoot him. Oh he has a barrier? Good thing you shoot through barriers all the time in combat so that shouldn't really phase you much. Shoot a little faster, please. Oh, you're just going to stand there and watch while he stabs your flying car? Okay, sure that's fine too. Oh he has a gun ship? Please, Shep has shot down more gunships and other air devices than an anti-air canon. Just overload the shields and 3 shots with the Mantis will blow that thing... what, you've never seen or encountered glare before. Thwarted by the sun? Really? **** Kai Leng. So happy when he died. I wanted to stab him twice.

Damn, that was a lot longer than it needed to be.

[Raiil]

Mr.House wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Okay, let's clarify: Liara is the only squadmate across all three games who can't die unless you end up with the rocks fall, lol galactic destruction choice.

She's a Prothean Expert- Information Broker now Shadow Broker- oops back to Prothean Expert... If you like Liara, you likely can't get enough of her. If you're meh on her, then you can ignore her. But if you actively dislike her, BioWare's incessant need to be all bff with her gets old very quickly.


I mean, why is she my friend? I was rude and obnoxious to her the entirety of Mass Effect 1, and then she's all zomg happy to see me afterwards. If we're friends, then we have a highly dysfunctional friendship and she needs to see a therapist about her co-dependency issues. She is the only alien I have disparaged, to their face, about their culture, and it was simply because there's something about her that I don't like, not because I have an issue with asari.

.

I was rude to Tali, yet she wants to have sex with me in ME2. Answer? Bioware does not account for what happen in the past games. When you first meet a old character it wil lthink you are godo friends. After that moment you can then continue to be a friend or not. This ist he same for Liara. You can treat her like crap in ME,ME2 and ME3 after the introduction. Same with Joker, Garrus and Tali. It does not change the fact the first time you met them again they are jumping up and down.

Then perhaps BioWare needs to address this as well. It doesn't detract from the point that Liara's status as l'il blue waiful/Writer's Pet is absolutely maddening to people who don't like her. I don't care if people feel that way about Garrus or Tail, inasmuch that they're entitled to their opinions and I'll back them up on it, even if I'm totally in bromanceville with Garrus personally. 

'But they did it with X' is not a valid excuse. Both need to be changed, not one ignored. 

[xsdob]

You know what, reading the past few post, I'm just going to let this hatred train go it's course.

[TNT1991]

I agree with OP that Liara has one of the thickest plot armor in the whole series, though not the only one. Just wished there was an option to get rid of her from the beginning.  

Modifié par TNT1991, 14 avril 2012 - 07:09 .

[Torrible]

Kai Leng was always meant to be the Darth Maul-ish mysterious henchman archetype rather than a well-fleshed out philosophical villain like Sephiroth or TIM.

[Vexille]

I just dont see how people can honestly be against having the option to NOT have Liara as a squadmate?

The option not to have her as a squadmate in ME3 seems like a no brainer

[The Milky Waver]

One of the reasons that killing off Liara wasn't an option was probably because she is the Shadow Broker, which is apperantly a huge role. So who else but Liara could fill that role, who else could automatically become the Shadow Broker?

[Mr.House]

TNT1991 wrote...

I agree with OP that Liara has one of the thickest plot armor in the whole series, though not the only one. Just wished there was an option to get rid of her from the beginning.  

I wish I could get rid of Garrus in Me2 or get rid of Joker and get a better non-annoying character.

[Mr.House]

Vexille wrote...

I just dont see how people can honestly be against having the option to NOT have Liara as a squadmate?

The option not to have her as a squadmate in ME3 seems like a no brainer

Then we also should have had the option to not have Garrus in ME2 and Tali in ME.

Modifié par Mr.House, 14 avril 2012 - 07:15 .

[Dridengx]

Way too much to pick apart OP. Not worth the effort lol. sometimes you have to admit you can't save them all and you gotta let some go