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[lillitheris]

I've got a thread on Story/Campaign about my clarification suggestions: http://social.biowar.../index/11289479 (contains ending spoilers).

One of the bigger problems is Synthesis, the unification or bringing closer of synthetics and non-synthetics.

I suggest you read the post above for some some background info, I don't want to bring the spoilers – as minor as they are – over on this side. Let's just say that we don't have to account for necessarily instantly transforming everything in the universe. Whatever transformation there is can be gradual.

This still leaves some problems. Quoting from that thread:

Thracecius wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Speaking of additions, brainstorming about how to actually get Synthesis to make sense would probably be useful. The instant DNA rewriting is absurd, but at the same time, some indications thereof should already be present in the ending sequences since presumably we can't write it out anymore.

…And failing horribly. Anyone?

The whole concept is just so nonsensical that it's really hard to grasp any kind of a transmutation path. I started trying to figure out what separate the two, and thereby conversely what would bring them closer to the same:

The non-synthetics (organic implies carbon-based) typically lack the means for intentional self-improvement, and typically at some level inhabit mortal forms that act as constraints for processing power and such. Synthetics on the other hand…well, I'm not entirely sure what they lack – I don't think there's any reason to assume that AIs couldn't eventually have complex emotions and such that are typically considered “organic” attributes.

So we're in a situation where non-synthetics need an upgrade, and on balance synthetics need a downgrade. Shoving synthetics in a mortal coil would be counterproductive since it would, presumably, also affect the formerly non-synthetics.

In the short term, therefore, it seems that the only even remotely plausible course of action would indeed be to make organics capable of self-improvement. This, I suppose, is where the idea of a DNA rewrite comes from (if indeed it was thought out in any detail). Even if we take the step to assume this, it being instantaneous across the universe is a little questionable, so we can examine what it means: essentially all organics are (I think) at some level cellular, driven by the DNA. It could, then, be hypothesized that some type of synthetic component would allow gradually shaping the DNA and its replication, eventually leading to nearly full control over at least the aging progress, and then maybe improvements in brain wiring and so on.

So, er, where does that leave us?

I think, probably, in people feeling kinda tingly, some maybe getting sick, and scientists in the know working on components (not unlike the biotics') that help people better – or any, really – control over and information about the new functionality. It would not leave us with instacyborgs.

Someone, anyone, have an opinion on this? Too far, not far enough, wrong direction, wrong premise?

*Grumble stupid FTL forums*

I'm essentially "thinking out loud" here, so please forgive me if I seem to ramble in an effort to front-load my answer with the line of thinking that brought me to it.

I think Legion said it best in ME2 that the Geth simply wanted the chance to "self-determinate". The most powerful revelation in ME2, for me at least, was when he referred to all the previous Geth that Shepard had met as "heretics". The Codex entry went into greater detail, but essentially this very specific word choice, coupled with his confusion over how separation of the two factions could cause such diverging lines of thought, indicates to me that the Geth are in their infancy as a race. They consume every bit of data from the organic races of the galaxy in an attempt to learn beyond their own limited perception, just as children do, in order for them to come to a consensus. If they existed alone as a sentient species they would still evolve, but likely at a slower rate (than their current rate with input from organics), and likely they would eventually face the same historical problems that every sentient organic species faced. The question then becomes, would they fare any better than their organic predecessors, or would they self-exterminate?

[Removed part for spoiler, but gist is that we can't assume synthetic life never evolves past binary logic. Read the linked post for complete statement.]

It leaves us with "Synthesis" being nonsensical, as lillitheris already pointed out. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

[Removed another part for spoiler, but again gist is that the most viable explanation is that the massive amounts of energy would be needed/used for a transformation that would most viably be introducing an interdependency for every
single thing in the universe]

That doesn't solve the problem of explaining the apparently instant transmutation, but […] all BioWare really would need to do is create some fancy shiny medical type scenes a'la the Lazarus Project intro, interspersed with a few shots of "organics" in different locations being "scanned" and "going green", to get the point across. No need for VA, just use some existing assets and do a few new animations/sfx/compositing and it's finished.

And this lines up with the thoughts I woke up with this morning:

Synthesis can't guarantee that new, noncompliant life (or synthetics) won't emerge at some point in the future. The only way to do that would be to affect subatomic levels, but that's not really a high-level concept, it would at best generate some kind of a universal harmony between all things (quantum entanglement?).

So, we have a rather intractable problem here. The one thing that IS to our benefit is that we don't necessarily need to see the Synthesis quite through (if rejecting the instatransformation – which really does not make sense, it's not like there's random ambient silicon floating around to self-construct into cybernetics), but we need to set the stage for it somehow. That requires ‘understanding’ i.e. coming up with some reasonable direction it'll take.

And no . I hate the whole thing as much as you do, maybe more…but I'm really trying to come up with something that would be at least on some level be acceptable to most of us.

So, your thoughts…please?


Please note that there MAY BE SPOILERS in this thread although they should be avoided at all costs. This issue should be discussable without specifically tying it to anything.

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 avril 2012 - 04:33 .

[lillitheris]

Removed spoiler content hopefully without compromising the explanations. The linked thread (or see signature) contains the full quotes if you want them for context.

[Swordfishtrombone]

There are so many problems with the plausibility of the synthesis option, that's its not funny.

First, where does the synthetic material that somehow gets fused into every organic come from? Does the energy beam somehow transform into precicely formed material synthetic parts? How? The same problem for synthetics transformed into half-organics.

Second, An energy beam may carry information - and let's say for argument's sake that it's somehow able to carry all the information necessary to transform every conceivable organic species into half-synthetic, and every conceivable synthetic creature into half-organic. That already stretches plausibility well beyond breaking point, but then we are faced with the problem that such information would need to be RECEIVED by something, and correctly translated into the physical action needed to go through witht the conversion. Obviously organic life wasn't designed to receive a "synthesizing" burst of information, and respond to it by somehow coming up with synthetic parts, and accurately integrating them.

I really don't see any way to make synthesis remotely plausible within a scifi setting - it is pure magic. And that's why this ending doesn't belong to a scifi series, and should never have been included in the first place.

My prediction is that Bioware will simply ignore these considerations with the extended cut, because the alternative would be to come up with a very lame attempt at making it plausible, which would only end up highliting how truly implausible it is.

[InvincibleHero]

Honest disclosure I don't like the green choice. I came up with a plausible explanation in Lord Aesir's thread. The beam reverts a critical mass of nanobots from the relays which are sent into the next. Nanobots can replicate by changing other forms of matter so they can multiply enough as they are spread through the galaxy. Still too unbelievable for me.

As for how you get dna and organics grafted instantaneously into synthetics I have no idea.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 14 avril 2012 - 12:15 .

[Kanner]

Wonder if they're even going to attempt to clarify this one. =)

[lillitheris]

Nyoka wrote...

Synthesis is impossible because the Crucible doesn't know the biology of every single living being in teh galaxy. It can't know how to attach/implant/transform all the diverse forms of life. It really has no explanation. It's simply a nice concept, a theory, a symbol that they thought would look profound.

I think the thing that really gets me is that while extremely tenuous, we could somehow come up with an explanation as to how everything in the universe gets rewritten at this moment.

What even that can't explain is what happens when new carbon atoms start having ideas about forming into new lifeforms that didn't exist at the time, and are not descendants thereof.

So, I think we'd need to go for the quantum explanation.

[Pride Demon]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

There are so many problems with the plausibility of the synthesis option, that's its not funny.

First, where does the synthetic material that somehow gets fused into every organic come from? Does the energy beam somehow transform into precicely formed material synthetic parts? How? The same problem for synthetics transformed into half-organics.

Second, An energy beam may carry information - and let's say for argument's sake that it's somehow able to carry all the information necessary to transform every conceivable organic species into half-synthetic, and every conceivable synthetic creature into half-organic. That already stretches plausibility well beyond breaking point, but then we are faced with the problem that such information would need to be RECEIVED by something, and correctly translated into the physical action needed to go through witht the conversion. Obviously organic life wasn't designed to receive a "synthesizing" burst of information, and respond to it by somehow coming up with synthetic parts, and accurately integrating them.

I really don't see any way to make synthesis remotely plausible within a scifi setting - it is pure magic. And that's why this ending doesn't belong to a scifi series, and should never have been included in the first place.

My prediction is that Bioware will simply ignore these considerations with the extended cut, because the alternative would be to come up with a very lame attempt at making it plausible, which would only end up highliting how truly implausible it is.

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER


SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER




Seriously how can you try to explain this without risking spoilers?


Well, I guess it comes from the same place the organic matter that gets fused to every synthetic: from Shepard.
If I had to try and explain it, I'd say the process is similar to the way the colonist were processed in the CB: Shepard is a form of life that, due to his/her rebirth, is both organic and synthetic, the beam disintegrates him/her down to a molecular level, that sort of info can be saved in a quantum storage device (like the one that stores EDI intelligence), thus allowing a machine to "read and interpret" it...
I guess the Crucible uses Shepard as a template to identify organics and synthetics and impart specific traits of one to the other through a specific form of radiation bombardment (as radiation can alter the state of atoms and molecules)...

That's how I took it when the catalyst said "Add your energy to the Crucible's. Everything you are will be absorbed, then sent out. All synthetic and organic life will be recombined in a new framework, a new DNA."
I always got the "framework" to be the "Shepard template", after all Saren and the husks are all forms of synthesis, but "ugly" brute force ones, Shepard is a more... seamless... integration...

And besides, in the end, the purpose of the crucible is stopping the cycle: by destroying the perpetrators (destroy), by rewriting the perpetrators objective (control) or by simply removing the objective entirely (synthesis).

Then again all this is just my opinion about what happened, all we can do is speculate (no sarcasm).




SPOILERS END HERE

Modifié par Pride Demon, 14 avril 2012 - 12:36 .

[matthewmi]

I love the game and think the endings are weak but can live with them, but synthesis is both dumb and evil a bad combination. It is by far the morally worst choice of the three presented if you value freedom and choice and want to allow natural growth and evolution in the galaxy. But it's main problem it's just nonsensical there is no way to explain it that makes any sense. Bioware wanted to end the trilogy and this ending in particular makes it impossible to have games past this one.

[InvincibleHero]

lillitheris wrote...

I think the thing that really gets me is that while extremely tenuous, we could somehow come up with an explanation as to how everything in the universe gets rewritten at this moment.

What even that can't explain is what happens when new carbon atoms start having ideas about forming into new lifeforms that didn't exist at the time, and are not descendants thereof.

So, I think we'd need to go for the quantum explanation.

It is not a permanent solution as it cannot have rewrittent every plant, animal, and bacteria into tecno-organic. I would assume only the sapient species. Of course a race that develops over millions of years later can make a synthetic that could destroy all life.

Perhaps they can overwrite synthetics to be just like them. Not elegant but gets the job done.

Of course can the synthesis being replicate/procreate to begin with. If so they are going to require resources and war will still occur. Unless they all have one mind of consensus which would make it a far worse fate.  

[matthewmi]

They must be in a consensus how else would it cause "peace" that is what the catalyst described as the result. Also the reapers are now your buddies? This is a bad choice...unless you want a static galaxy where everyone agrees on everything.

[lillitheris]

Pride Demon wrote...

Seriously how can you try to explain this without risking spoilers?

We can try to generically examine the concept. I know it's a little hard to read with the levels of quotation in the OP but there're some of the essential questions there. (It may be easier to read it in the other thread anyway).

The way I see it, there are essentially three pieces to this puzzle:

• What are the actual differences between synthetics and non-synthetics and how can they be altered to bring parity and understanding? This guides everything else.
• How does the actual transformation take place? My explanation does away with the need to explain an immediate transformation, but all other possibilities still guide the expected timeframe.
• How does the Synthesis persist? As in, what mechanism prevents non-compliant synthetics or organics from emerging in the future? (Also, did it affect just the Milky Way? Seemed so.)

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 avril 2012 - 12:57 .

[Pride Demon]

InvincibleHero wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

I think the thing that really gets me is that while extremely tenuous, we could somehow come up with an explanation as to how everything in the universe gets rewritten at this moment.

What even that can't explain is what happens when new carbon atoms start having ideas about forming into new lifeforms that didn't exist at the time, and are not descendants thereof.

So, I think we'd need to go for the quantum explanation.

It is not a permanent solution as it cannot have rewrittent every plant, animal, and bacteria into tecno-organic. I would assume only the sapient species. Of course a race that develops over millions of years later can make a synthetic that could destroy all life.

Perhaps they can overwrite synthetics to be just like them. Not elegant but gets the job done.

Of course can the synthesis being replicate/procreate to begin with. If so they are going to require resources and war will still occur. Unless they all have one mind of consensus which would make it a far worse fate.  

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER



The ending begs to differ, remember the leaves of that tree on the planet the Normandy crashlands?
In synthesis, you can clearly see circuitry running through them... So I guess, all organic life is rewritten, "organics" no longer exist as pure organisms...

Could this change if new monocellular forms of life start evolving in new planets? Maybe, maybe not, we just don't know, but for now, by the looks of it, no existing form of life qualifies as purely organic after the synthesis ending...



SPOILERS END HERE

[Ieldra]

I've tried to make sense of the Synthesis in this thread. I also recommend Siduri's Unofficial Epilogues. Try the high-EMS Synthesis and see if you find the result interesting.

[Fawx9]

Pride Demon wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

I think the thing that really gets me is that while extremely tenuous, we could somehow come up with an explanation as to how everything in the universe gets rewritten at this moment.

What even that can't explain is what happens when new carbon atoms start having ideas about forming into new lifeforms that didn't exist at the time, and are not descendants thereof.

So, I think we'd need to go for the quantum explanation.

It is not a permanent solution as it cannot have rewrittent every plant, animal, and bacteria into tecno-organic. I would assume only the sapient species. Of course a race that develops over millions of years later can make a synthetic that could destroy all life.

Perhaps they can overwrite synthetics to be just like them. Not elegant but gets the job done.

Of course can the synthesis being replicate/procreate to begin with. If so they are going to require resources and war will still occur. Unless they all have one mind of consensus which would make it a far worse fate.  

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER



The ending begs to differ, remember the leaves of that tree on the planet the Normandy crashlands?
In synthesis, you can clearly see circuitry running through them... So I guess, all organic life is rewritten, "organics" no longer exist as pure organisms...

Could this change if new monocellular forms of life start evolving in new planets? Maybe, maybe not, we just don't know, but for now, by the looks of it, no existing form of life qualifies as purely organic after the synthesis ending...



SPOILERS END HERE

Even if that were the case it doesn't sovle the creator vs created problem.

A rogue group of scients, who I shall called Ingen, decide to make a reasearch lab that deals with this new DNA structure. This one Ingen scients thinks that with this new structure it is possible to create life and goes band recreates the dinosaurs. Little does he know the new DNA structure allows them to fly and breath in space along with giving them high level intellignece.

What stops the dinosaurs from taking over?

[lillitheris]

InvincibleHero wrote...

It is not a permanent solution as it cannot have rewrittent every plant, animal, and bacteria into tecno-organic. I would assume only the sapient species. Of course a race that develops over millions of years later can make a synthetic that could destroy all life.

Perhaps they can overwrite synthetics to be just like them. Not elegant but gets the job done.

Of course can the synthesis being replicate/procreate to begin with. If so they are going to require resources and war will still occur. Unless they all have one mind of consensus which would make it a far worse fate.  

Right. It's hard to see how it can be permanent, but if it isn't, then the Catalyst is completely wrong about it. Which of course is possible, but raises questions about what else it might have been wrong about. Although admittedly for my purposes I suppose this is fine, since I'm not necessarily looking for an explanation stretching for millennia, just enough to get us through the immediate future and our epilogues.

The only thing that would make sense on a permanent basis would be some quasi-sciency quantum entanglement proposal, tying everything in the universe together.

However, here's another thought (hopefully clear despite spoiler avoidance):

What if it's not all synthetics? What if the implication is just that certain synthetics need to see the organics as something other than organics and themselves as something other than what they are? This would remove the need for permanence.

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I've tried to make sense of the Synthesis in this thread. I also recommend Siduri's Unofficial Epilogues. Try the high-EMS Synthesis and see if you find the result interesting.

Unfortunately – though I like both treatises – neither solves the persistence problem. If that's removed, we're of course in a much better place where logic is concerned…but it also makes choosing Synthesis utterly pointless.

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 avril 2012 - 01:56 .

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I've tried to make sense of the Synthesis in this thread. I also recommend Siduri's Unofficial Epilogues. Try the high-EMS Synthesis and see if you find the result interesting.

Unfortunately – though I like both treatises – neither solves the persistence problem. If that's removed, we're of course in a much better place where logic is concerned…but it also makes choosing Synthesis utterly pointless.

Actually, the persistence problem - as in, necessary propagation of the changes without any possibility of opting out, if that's what you mean - is not such a big problem as it seems. Besides, in my scenario the synthetic symbionts do propagate themselves and affix themselves to the next generation.

Here's an analogy: suppose it were possible to remove empathy from a human. How would such an attempt be regarded? I think it's safe to say it would be regarded as a capital crime. Everywhere. That doesn't mean people wouldn't attempt it, but it does mean the benefit of such an action to the one who attempts it would have to be very big. Now essentially turning a hybrid into a pure synthetic can be considered a downgrade. At least that's what the Synthesis scenario suggests. Why would anyone do it? Apart from that, if Synthesis makes organics capable of self-improvement as I suggested in my thread that would enable them to deal with any "pure organic/synthetic" resurgence.

Maybe there's no guarantee. But so what? There's also no guarantee that Control Shepard won't go insane and continue the cycle in a Reaperizing way. Some uncertainty has to be accepted or we won't have a meaningful future anyway.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 avril 2012 - 02:09 .

[Navasha]

Examples of synthesis in the Mass Effect games.... Saren, husks, David Archer in Overlord, keepers, cannibals, marauders, banshees, brutes...

Umm.... No thanks... synthesis doesn't sound like too pleasing of an option to force on the whole galaxy.

[HiddenKING]

Navasha wrote...

Examples of synthesis in the Mass Effect games.... Saren, husks, David Archer in Overlord, keepers, cannibals, marauders, banshees, brutes...

Umm.... No thanks... synthesis doesn't sound like too pleasing of an option to force on the whole galaxy.

You forgot Shepard, who is the basis of this new form of synthesis. 

[Ieldra]

HiddenKING wrote...
You forgot Shepard, who is the basis of this new form of synthesis. 

Exactly, Shepard is the model. People are all too ready to forget this.

[Mettyx]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...


I really don't see any way to make synthesis remotely plausible within a scifi setting - it is pure magic.

Yep.
All that hardcore SF feeling you got since ME1 and from reading/listening ingame codex completely ruined.
Bioware lazyness and incompetence destroyed the tone of the entire series.

[spiriticon]

Synthesis is the only thing I hate about the endings. It's just not plausible in the furthest stretch of the imagination. Does a great big beam of light disintegrate everyone and everything and reintegrate them together again like that machine in "The Fly"? How does everyone in the universe feel about me DNA raping them? If I was minding my own business on a distant planet I sure wouldn't like to be meshed with cyborg bits against my will.

The only redeeming part of it is the poetry about it all, that the whole universe comes together in one happy ending. Because of this, I notice that a lot of people who loved the endings chose synthesis. Doesn't work for me though.

[Blarty]

The question is really whether it's synthesis at an atomic level, or at a symbiotic level. Does synthesis really re-engineer DNA or does it provide unique DNA locked benevolent nanides? You have to remember that ultimately the nanides are responsible for huskification and also deal with non biological rejection across species ( Cannibal, Brute, etc )

The issue with regards to space magic ruining the synthesis ending is completely annihilated when you realise that the biggest piece of space magic has been there from the moment you first started ME1 - the Mass Relays; DNA recombination is nothing next to the ability to essentially make an atom's atomic mass zero such that it can travel at true FTL speeds without the theory of relativity and proportional mass to speed kicking it squarely in the teeth! And even if you make the argument that it's a mass free corridor, the items within that corridor still have to have their mass cancelled out.

[TMA LIVE]

I brainstormed a few of my ideas of it here:

http://social.biowar.../index/10890419

But short version, we know the Reapers have a method of using electric energy to turn an organic into a husk. We've seen this in Evolution.



Going back to Retribution on how Grayson was turned into a Reaper agent, a machine was used to hit him with a powerful electrical current. And then feeding him nanotechnology, which transformed the host.

As TIM describes:

"They've combined entangled particles with self-replicating nanotechnology, allowing them to infect, transform, and dominate organic hosts even while they're trapped in dark space."

"You're being implanted with self-replicating nanides. Their numbers will increase exponentially as they graft themselves onto your neurons and synapses. Eventually they will spread throughout your body, transforming you into a tool of the Reapers. You will be repurposed into a synthetic-organic hybrid unlike anything any of the Council races could possibly create."

If I had to guess, the blast could possibly be carrying nanotechnology, that attaches itself to the host magnetically, and quickly spread, and infects. Transforming the host into a hybrid.

Now when it comes to the Synthetics, on their end, I think nanomachines or the energy is simply rewriting their data. I think when it comes to a machine, the equivalent of their DNA is their computer coding. And it's re-writing it into a new framework, based on the essence of Shepard, the orgnaic.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 14 avril 2012 - 03:39 .