115 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

The thing that gets me is that, under the Reaper's plan organics aren't actually begin preserved at all. They are being converted into another form.

At best, the Reapers are "preserving" organics in the same way taking a picture of a painting preserves the painting. At worst, organics are "preserved" by Reapers in the same way a lion preserves a gazelle.

And even that might be giving the Reaper too much credit. Given that the form organics are being converted into is under the control of another being (the StarKid), neither an organic's physical, nor psychological essence is being preserved. All that remains is data. And, given that the Reapers are clearly shackled in some way to the Catalyst's will, even that much is dubious since it is unclear how much of that data a given Reaper would have access to.

[EHondaMashButton]

Browser crashed mid-essay:sick: Anyway here's a re-type.  Some of the details were lost :/

Some foundation:
-Each reaper is composed of a billion organic minds.  (see legion's explanation in ME2)  We don't know if those minds are evil or harvested victims.

Some semi-speculation semi-lore:
Each reaper is composed of billions of organic minds hijacked/held captive by the starchild's AI program solution. The dominant voice you talk to (Saren, Harbinger) is that program filtered through the voice of whatever civilization it harvested. ie. This is why Harbinger is so arrogant compared to Sovereign.  All those minds are still trapped inside (like Kelly Chambers, etc)

-Short distance indoctrination is via nanomachines  that act like viruses-Long distance indoctrination/assuming control is using these nanomachines to amplify the signal (like -legion/saren's implants)

So we begin....
The alliance can't get to the conduit on earth so they call off the retreat, with the plan for the geth to reactivate the conduit on ilos, and access the backdoor there, and blow the conduit on earth to prevent TiM from getting there and screwing it all up.

But EDI has access to your vitals and knew you made it in with anderson.  She alerts anderson and hackett that they are both alive. She also knows there is a contingency plan to blow the conduit once the citadel arms are released to prevent the husks from coming in behind shepard.  So she and joker decide retrieve your squad out of the blast zone before this happens.    

-Destroy is sending the signal to initiate self-deletion, killing everything to be on the safe side/merciful death depending on if you think the organic minds are innocents or compliant  +/- Geth/EDI depending on if Bioware wants to retcon that. 

- Control is overwriting the reaper AI code with your own and dominating the organic minds for yourself(or being nice to them I guess)

-Synthesis is scanning semi-synthetic shepard's structure to allow for a process that combines synthetic and organic without huskification (which is why it had to be shepard to jump in the beam)

-The beam is only a signal that tells the reaper code to erase itself, disperse all its nanomachines w/ shep's blueprint, and broadcast the organic minds aboard like a lifeboat/fax. 

EDI can hear your dialogue with TiM and is monitoring your vitals via the suit.  She knows you're about to pass out was attempting to get in position to have a team extract you.  The normandy wasn't running, it just got swept up and carried in the wake of the signal

- Reapers go into high orbit and disperse nanomachines onto planet, penetrate skin, analyze our DNA, then manipulate it to code more nanomachines and enzymes to digest synthetic compounds and produce synthetic  materials. Because they are intelligent, this happens rapidly, and more improvements occur over time. This occurs for plants, animals, humans, krogans, turians, etc.

This is a SLOW process for an individual- months/years maybe. Skin changes at first, then deeper structures.   Evolution still takes place, but with machines in the mix. All species eventually become synthetic-organic by natural selection.  Imagine trying to survive on a planet with synthetic plants without that adaptation.

-Reapers go into high orbit and send SOS signalHits the geth consensive.  Geth get the same choice as shepard.  Destroy the minds, control them/the ships, or welcome them into the consensus.

Hits EDI.  EDI's servers can't store the minds, but it can store fragments of memories, personalities, etc.  (a "memory shard" of every organic that has ever been harvested)  She can destroy it and remain totally synthetic, use the information to completely understand and/or manipulate organics, or merge the information fully, becoming something new (like Legion on rannoch, but minds instead of programs, and turned up x1,000,000,000).

Their choices, along with your own, determine the fate of the galaxy.  
If you betrayed the geth, you may have to face EDI, depending on how you shaped her personality, and the organic minds have nowhere to go (and could potentially be used by EDI against you or some other unknown cerberus AI).   

If you betrayed the Quarians, the geth might reach consensus that synthetics/organics can't coexist that intimately, and decide to rewrite or destroy them.  And so on.  

Shep's code goes out with the SOS.  You burnt the geth, you burnt yourself. You may or may not retain your personality. You may or may not be able to inhabit a new organic/synthetic platform.  You may or may not be able to communicate with your LI via FTL communication.  (a digital plane of existence similar to Legion's mission or Liara's gift or the long-dead prothean VI's that can talk to you) 

Note: EDI/Geth
-if you made peace with the quarians and the geth then chose destroy, they trust the SOS signal and you backstab them with a self-destruct signal
-if you sided with them over the quarians, their actions depend on how you carried conversation with legion.  They may want nothing to do with organics and escape self-destruct, but know you just tried to backstab or they may trust you and get backstabbed
-if you sided with the quarians then it doesn't matter at this point

EDI has access to your suit. If you can talk to Hackett, she knows what choice you made.  She will not accept the destroy or control signals, and has been watching what you do to other A.I. all along.  Choose wisely.

Multiple possibilities for different endings incorporating conversation w/ legion/edi, heretics, rannoch, final choice

Interesting consequences
-Relays are okay.  You overloaded the traffic signals, not blew up the highway
-The former organics are now capable of networked FTL communication with former synthetics, you can now not only see but experience all perspectives.  The created and the creator can be independent yet understand each other fully.
-You can reproduce with other species/same sex because your nanomachines can transmit or accept and randomize your entire DNA code with your partner a digital version of asari mating. (requires external pods for males.) Your nanomachines "compare notes" on what they've learned in each of your bodies and reach consensus on which is the best set of blueprints to transfer, using bits from both parents.
-Geth can "mate" now-Joker/EDI offspring would be a ship with a mobile body unit based on joker/EVA. It would require an external facility to create, and the puberty would be freaky and mindblowing
-You are immortal, your synthetic parts can perform self-maintenance on both organic and synthetic parts. 
-But you can "let go," deactivating maintenance programs and after many months/years die of natural causes-Most non-religious folks would come to see the consensus as the ideal retirement/heaven
It was a lot more fleshed out before my browser crashed D:  Alert me to any loopholes, shoot questions if you like.

No choice should be 100% ideal, that defeats the purpose.  And I think EDI and the geth deserve a representative in the matter  if Shepard is deciding for organics. 

Modifié par EHondaMashButton, 14 avril 2012 - 07:20 .

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

You seem to be trying to explain how something which you know nothing about solves a problem which you also know nothing about, and which may indeed *not actually exist*.

Succinct. Pretty much, yes.

Now, like I said, I don't really need to completely solve the problem, be it permanent or not. I just need enough to work on how that affects the immediate future. The distant future is only a factor inasmuch I need to re-evaluate the desirability of synthesis.

Right now it's looking an awful lot like there's no reasonable way that synthesis could be considered to be a permanent solution to the organic/synthetic conflict.

Read my post on the other thread. NO POSSIBLE SCENARIO can be considered permanent without removing either freedom or intelligence - or introducing a godlike intelligence forever beyond the understanding of any possible civilization. So just don't act as if it should be possible. This doesn't change the balance. Just posit an extremely low probability that the solution will be undone before a different conflict will overshadow the current one and a different solution to THAT problem needs to be achieved. You cannout account for the actions of species so far advanced that you don't understand them. You cannot account for any possible future.

This does not change the balance. The need for an absolute guarantee is based on a false premise.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 avril 2012 - 07:03 .

[lillitheris]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

Fair enough, in terms of desirability I'm very much with the guy upthread who pointed out that Synthesis is undesirable for basic reasons of consent.

Right, it's implications are a big problem. The tradeoff would be somewhat acceptable if the result was indeed permanent. Discussion on that topic should probably go to the other thread, though.

I still want to see if we can come up with anything even remotely feasible for permanence, but I think the consensus is that nanotech is a feasible non-permanent option?

I think it can be mostly handwaved apart from the source of the initial building materials and manufacturing site (and thereby method of dispersion). In any case, this does give us a non-instantaneous transformation but with nearly immediately noticeable early symptoms.

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 avril 2012 - 07:03 .

[TheMightyG00sh]

Simple, space magic teleports nanites into the human body and binds it to the 4 base DNA structure creating a synthetic DNA... Conversely DNA is ripped out of a human and magicked into Geth where it is soldered onto the Synthetic components.

Or it could just be a plot hole...

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Read my post on the other thread.

Responding there.

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...
I still want to see if we can come up with anything even remotely feasible for permanence, but I think the consensus is that nanotech is a feasible non-permanent option?

I recommend looking through the tech levels of the Orion's Arm Universe Project. Changes made on a higher level will be semi-permanent, meaning impossible to remove until civilization reaches that higher tech level and gains the capability of building technology based on it.. To start with, changes within the ME universe would probably have to be done on a subatomic level, and the nanotech will use exotic matter. Once civilization reaches the capability to understand and build on that level, the solution could be undone, but by that point it's also likely the old organic/synthetic problem will not be a problem anymore but supplanted by different ones.

Like the solutions to the problem, the problems themselves can never be permanent in a changing universe.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 avril 2012 - 07:16 .

[lillitheris]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Browser crashed mid-essay:sick: Anyway here's a re-type.  Some of the details were lost :/

Always save your text periodically

…

Any alternatives to nanotech? It is probably a more reasonable explanation than some type of a direct biological effect, though will be a little slower to spread around (I wonder if there are any implications to that). The synthetic side is relatively easy, it's just code.

[EHondaMashButton]

There's no way without some for of direct contact. Only other way I can think of is indoctrinating everyone to come get implanted. Which would be less than desirable....

I suppose you could do it voluntarily and just let natural selection take over. Anybody with implants would be presumably semi-immortal and vastly superior intellectually and physiologically. This could create a new problem of pureblood organic slums, assuming the semi-organics even care to compete in conventional organic society. They might just go commune with the geth. Who knows.

I think the starchild idea is a sloppy way of saying "you've created this thing you can never compete with,"  and your temperment is to poke it with a stick, so I'm putting you in time out, because your kind of evolution can't win against the machines

Modifié par EHondaMashButton, 14 avril 2012 - 08:34 .

[Ieldra]

EHondaMashButton wrote...
There's no way without some for of direct contact. Only other way I can think of is indoctrinating everyone to come get implanted. Which would be less than desirable....

I suppose you could do it voluntarily and just let natural selection take over. Anybody with implants would be presumably semi-immortal and vastly superior intellectually and physiologically. This could create a new problem of pureblood organic slums, assuming the semi-organics even care to compete in conventional organic society. They might just go commune with the geth. Who knows.

I don't think making it voluntary from day one would work. but the selection angle is interesting. If the benefits of the Synthesis are large enough, it can become outright undesirable to devolve into "pure". And well, if there are minorities of pure synthetics that kill a minority of pure organics, that would leave the hybrids ascendant and the "pure" species would eventually become extinct. Actually, it works in a rather similar way in biological evolution: "mixed" genes are usually superior, a fact racists really don't like.

[EHondaMashButton]

Well I don't mean from a conscious desirability standpoint, I mean you'd be out-competed from an evolutionary standpoint, or you'd be assimilated by reproduction, since you're never going to lose the nanites, so it doesn't matter what any single individual chooses.

If outwardly synthetic appearance were undesirable trait for reproduction, then the hybrids would evolve to appear superficially pure organic. All lifeforms would be "assimilated" eventually. The only race that could possibly escape this would be the asari since they don't exchange DNA. But they'd quickly lose political power/importance as they got left behind.

And the synthetic/organic hybrid DNA/nanite symbiosis might be so intertwined that the DNA becomes rudimentary and the nanite consciousness becomes responsible for the important bits (Like the crew handles the mundane things on the normandy, EDI manages the high-level things, while joker pilots it). Pure organic Asari might not be able to make any useful randomization from barebones DNA, leaving them to become inbred and extinct over a couple million years.

Modifié par EHondaMashButton, 14 avril 2012 - 08:57 .

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...
Any alternatives to nanotech? It is probably a more reasonable explanation than some type of a direct biological effect, though will be a little slower to spread around (I wonder if there are any implications to that). The synthetic side is relatively easy, it's just code.

A more persistent subatomic effect could be possible, which would affect all matter within a galaxy from which life can be formed, say, all carbon or silicon atoms. This would change the apparent properties of those elements for any observer with no contact with extragalactic matter. Also machines made from subatomic particles may be possible, their effects more or less arbitary to a normal human mind.  

@EHondaMashButton:
Come back to you later. Too tired to understand your post atm.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 avril 2012 - 09:00 .

[lillitheris]

It can't be voluntary, that doesn't work. It's gotta be all or nothing!

…

The problem with atomic or subatomic effects, I think, is that it seems highly unlikely that it could handle the complexity. The effect would have to be something extremely simple. (Or then we're talking about some bizarre encodings that might as well be ). I proposed it earlier, but it's probably fruitless to pursue.

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 avril 2012 - 09:07 .

[EHondaMashButton]

lillitheris wrote...

It can't be voluntary, that doesn't work. It's gotta be all or nothing!

Why not? The kid never specified a timeframe.  5 seconds, 5 minutes, 5 days, 5 years, 5 million years everything becomes a hybrid at the end of the day

Modifié par EHondaMashButton, 14 avril 2012 - 09:09 .

[lillitheris]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

It can't be voluntary, that doesn't work. It's gotta be all or nothing!

Why not?

The premise is invalid if there are any exceptions.

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

lillitheris wrote...

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

Fair enough, in terms of desirability I'm very much with the guy upthread who pointed out that Synthesis is undesirable for basic reasons of consent.

Right, it's implications are a big problem. The tradeoff would be somewhat acceptable if the result was indeed permanent. Discussion on that topic should probably go to the other thread, though.

Again, my issues with the entire setup are rather more basic than that. I don't think Synthesis is an *imperfect* solution, I think it's a non-solution to a non-problem.

To use an analogy which I hope won't violate anti-spoiler policies, one could imagine that the goal of the Reapers was to make it impossible for somebody to create a cupcake so delicious that it would destroy the universe. One might further imagine that Synthesis was an attempt to make life evolve beyond the need to make cupcakes.

You could certainly try to work out whether Synthesis could be described in a way that made it truly improbable that a cupcake would ever again be created, but from my point of view you're missing a rather important issue, which is that a cupcake so delicious it would destroy the universe is such a silly idea that taking any steps to prevent it at all is a waste of time.

[EHondaMashButton]

lillitheris wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

It can't be voluntary, that doesn't work. It's gotta be all or nothing!

Why not?

The premise is invalid if there are any exceptions.

 Why'd you cut off the rest of the post? 

 The kid never specified a timeframe.  5 seconds, 5 minutes, 5 days, 5 years, 5 million years everything becomes a hybrid at the end of the day 

There are no exceptions, it just takes place in evolutionary terms instead of instant space magic.  You can't exempt your species from evolution.  Survival of the fittest enforces that only synthetic-organic hybrids will remain.  No exceptions.

[lillitheris]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

 Why'd you cut off the rest of the post? 

[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)"> ]everything becomes a hybrid at the end of the day[/color] [/b][/i]

There are no exceptions, it just takes place in evolutionary terms instead of instant space magic.  You can't exempt your species from evolution.  Survival of the fittest enforces that only synthetic-organic hybrids will remain.  No exceptions.

It must be simultaneous and reasonably swift. Otherwise the premise is invalidated.

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

There are no exceptions, it just takes place in evolutionary terms instead of instant space magic.  You can't exempt your species from evolution.  Survival of the fittest enforces that only synthetic-organic hybrids will remain.  No exceptions.

I'm *pretty sure* that's nonsense.

Contrary to what most people seem to think, evolution doesn't have an agenda, it doesn't have a direction, and despite what a certain figure from the endgame might suggest it is not meaningful to describe it as having a "next step".

There is no reason whatsoever to believe that organic-synthetic hybrids would have any competitive advantage over pure organics or pure synthetics other than handwaving and "just 'cause."

Oh! There is of course one way that you could create a meaningful and stable peace out of a synthesis ending (and one which would eliminated all need for Space Magic). The Reapers are *already* organic-synthetic hybrids, so the simplest and most certain way to achieve the Synthesis ending is for the Reapers to reap the galaxy.

Job done, problem solved.

[lillitheris]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

You could certainly try to work out whether Synthesis could be described in a way that made it truly improbable that a cupcake would ever again be created, but from my point of view you're missing a rather important issue, which is that a cupcake so delicious it would destroy the universe is such a silly idea that taking any steps to prevent it at all is a waste of time.

I may have gotten lost in your tasty analogy But it doesn't really matter whether the idea is actually silly, in this case (more formally, only the validity of the argument matters, not its soundness).

Essentially: if C presents a problem, and then a solution, the solution must actually solve the problem whether or not it's real. In this case, I'm not (quite) sure that it does.

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 avril 2012 - 10:30 .

[EHondaMashButton]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

There are no exceptions, it just takes place in evolutionary terms instead of instant space magic.  You can't exempt your species from evolution.  Survival of the fittest enforces that only synthetic-organic hybrids will remain.  No exceptions.

I'm *pretty sure* that's nonsense.

Contrary to what most people seem to think, evolution doesn't have an agenda, it doesn't have a direction, and despite what a certain figure from the endgame might suggest it is not meaningful to describe it as having a "next step".

There is no reason whatsoever to believe that organic-synthetic hybrids would have any competitive advantage over pure organics or pure synthetics other than handwaving and "just 'cause."

Oh! There is of course one way that you could create a meaningful and stable peace out of a synthesis ending (and one which would eliminated all need for Space Magic). The Reapers are *already* organic-synthetic hybrids, so the simplest and most certain way to achieve the Synthesis ending is for the Reapers to reap the galaxy.

Job done, problem solved.

Tone it down. we're trying to come up with solutions here.  Hand-waving and science fiction are close cousins. Without a bit of embellishment we might as well just play a game simply set in the future. 

As long as you explain it and its grounded in science, its all good.  Otherwise we have to undo mass effect fields, memory shards, biotics, indoctrination, the thorian, rachni FTL communication , etc.

Nowhere did i say evolution has an agenda.  Please go look up hybridization.  On a genetic level there is no way to avoid mixing of genes.  All things would become semi-synthetic.  This isn't about competitive advantage on a concious level (though it would also occur there). This is about your sperm/egg not having a choice whether or not your partners nanites/nanite genes get mixed in with your kid.  

  

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

lillitheris wrote...

I may have gotten lost in your tasty analogy But it doesn't really matter whether the idea is actually silly, in this case (more formally, only the validity of the argument matters, not its soundness).

Essentially: if C presents a problem, and then a solution, the solution must actually solve the problem whether or not it's real. In this case, I'm not (quite) sure that it does.

Actually, I think we're good here. If the problem is not real, then by strict formal logic, any solution is a solution (and also not a solution).

I *think* (I'm a bit out of my depth here, I admit) that this is called the Principle of Explosion - a false statement implies any statement ("if the sky is green then I am Dracula" is a true statement because the sky is not green, and therefore whether or not I am Dracula is not at issue here).

So "if [PROBLEM], then we must [SOLUTION]" is necessarily a true statement, if the problem does not exist.

If we're going to break this down into abstracts (which is probably best for a non-spoler forum) then I think the Synthesis ending comes up something like this:

1. There exist two groups, A and B.
2. B will inevitably destroy A.
3. f we fuse the two into a new group AB, B cannot destroy A.
4. It is desirable that A not be destroyed by B.
5. It is not desirable that A continue to exist.

Therefore

6. It is desirable to fuse the two groups to form AB.

As I understand it, the logistical issues are preventing groups A and B from rearising in the future, and I genuinely think that's unsolvable.

My problems with Synthesis are twofold. Firstly (as per the cupcake example) I consider (2) above to be highly suspect (but I'm willing to let this slide). My bigger issue is that I find it very hard to reconcile (4) and (5).

[EHondaMashButton]

lillitheris wrote...

It must be simultaneous and reasonably swift. Otherwise the premise is invalidated.

Alright at least admit that is a completely arbitrary stipulation that you've created.  

And... it doesn't invalidate the premise.   
You will merge all synthetic and organic life......  but it takes a really long time.

[Rasofe]

I naturally assumed that what Synthesis really means is

"Haha, Shepard, we're going to do EXACTLY what we set out to do, and the only way you can chose this is if you've acquired a sufficiently high EMS, which you obviously would do, and if you would, you'd be more likely to pick it BECAUSE it's high EMS and you assume it's the best ending - whereas it actually means Critical Mission Failure"
- Starchild.

Que: Saren Mass Effect OST.

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Nowhere did i say evolution has an agenda.  Please go look up hybridization.  On a genetic level there is no way to avoid mixing of genes.  All things would become semi-synthetic.  This isn't about competitive advantage on a concious level (though it would also occur there). This is about your sperm/egg not having a choice whether or not your partners nanites/nanite genes get mixed in with your kid.  

You don't get to choose whether your partner's nanites get passed on to your kid, but you do get to choose not to have kids with somebody who has nanites. Or, for that matter, to fight an actual war to exterminate the people with nanintes.