41 réponses à ce sujet

[Cultist]

In Dragon Age: Origins we got Hardening option for Allistair and Leliana. What wikia says:
Leliana will no longer object to some of the morally questionable choices made by the Warden. She will be less judgmental of Morrigan,
and will have different ending epilogues available. If Leliana is in
love with the Warden at the end of the game and the Warden marries the
new ruler, then a hardened Leliana will be willing to stay on as the
Warden's mistress. This option is available to both male and female
wardens.

Alistair will gain confidence and put himself first more often. This
means he is more willing to become king, and to put his personal
feelings above his sense of duty.

So, in Dragon Age 2 this option have been removed.
Is it possible for Hardening to return in Dragon Age 3? To shift companions' attitude, to make them more ruthless, self-interested and such. On the other hand, we may get another option, maybe "Softening", to make them more caring, make evil\\ruthless\\sociopathic companions renounce their ways and strive for good.
Personally, I'm more interested in more ways to corrupt pious and goody-two-shoes into darker path.
Like Merril, who say: "To hell with the Dalish! their marrowminded ways were the cause of their downfall!", Like Aveline, who will use(and abuse) her position for her own profit or to force some suspects that cannot be caught legally. And, of course, like Anders, who will accept Blood Magic as a viable option to free the Mages.

Modifié par Cultist, 14 avril 2012 - 12:27 .

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IS ALWAYS NICE.

[LolaLei]

So in DA:O, if you played a female Warden noble and you was in a relationship with Leliana and decide to make Alistair king, you can marry him AND take Leliana as a Mistress?

Warden, you bloody pimp!

[SeanMurphy2]

I like it.

Where you may get a dialogue option based on a specific action or conversation from earlier in the game. Rather than based on how much you have filled a meter.

[Thori]

It would be AWESOME to have that again, but alas, this stupid friendship/rivalry meter doesn't allow this, and Gaider said they plan on keeping it. So, tough luck.

[The Elder King]

Thori wrote...

It would be AWESOME to have that again, but alas, this stupid friendship/rivalry meter doesn't allow this, and Gaider said they plan on keeping it. So, tough luck.

Actually, I remembered that recently Gaider said (in a thread here, in the GO General Discussion forum) that they'll probably turn back to the approval/disapproval system.

[AkiKishi]

hhh89 wrote...

Thori wrote...

It would be AWESOME to have that again, but alas, this stupid friendship/rivalry meter doesn't allow this, and Gaider said they plan on keeping it. So, tough luck.

Actually, I remembered that recently Gaider said (in a thread here, in the GO General Discussion forum) that they'll probably turn back to the approval/disapproval system.

I heard the same thing as Throri unfortunately. Any idea how long you ago you heard different ? I believe there is a statement regarding rivalry in the companion thread.

[The Elder King]

BobSmith101 wrote...


I heard the same thing as Throri unfortunately. Any idea how long you ago you heard different ? I believe there is a statement regarding rivalry in the companion thread.

I found it:

David Gaider wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

I think that with the rivalry/friendship system the relationship system was much better in DA2 than it was in DA:O.
but it also had some problems, if you did not completely (dis-)agree with a companion.
Fenris
and a freedom loving Hawke seem to be the prime example getting
friendship for killing slavers and rivalry for defending mages. Now that
would not be such a problem if the relationship was not measured in
relationship=friendship-rivalry, so that even if you bring him along the
whole game his relationship hovers around 0 most of the time since you
earn both friendship and rivalry points at roughly the same speed.
I
think a better system for DA3 would be similar to the reputation system
we have in ME3. So that the relationship is measured by the sum of both
friendship and rivalry, and the tone of the relationship is set by the
difference.

Yes, we've reached much the same
conclusion. The system works pretty well, but breaks down when we tie it
to more than one issue... which you sort of have to, unless you intend
for the character to have a single-note that they beat throughout the
entire game. If the player feels differently about those issues, then
you "hover" and the relationship goes nowhere.

While we've
several options on how to deal with this, I'm open to thoughts on the
subject. What I'm leaning towards is disassociating the progression of
the relationship from the point values and instead letting the point
values determine the tone of that relationship-- and anything triggered
by reaching a relationship stage being "extra", as it were.

And
very likely the friendship/rivalry will go back to being "I like you"/"I
don't like you" as in Origins. The DA2 version was more nuanced, but
also more difficult for players to understand-- most of whom thought
rivalry was a penalty of some kind anyhow (or this is my impression).
While I would not want to go back to the Origins method of rivalry
equalling no interaction, I think having it be about the general
attitude and not about how much you agree with their personal issue is a
bit easier for folks to wrap their heads around.

Again, this is
by no means final. Just where we're leaning. Before anyone asks, we're
not at the point where I can lay out what the detailed plans are for
changes-- as they don't exist at this point.

It's not a sure thing, but there are good chances or turning back to the approval/disapproval system.
Gaider posted this 22 days ago in the "Suggestions for Approval Points in DA3" thread.

Modifié par hhh89, 14 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[LolaLei]

Thori wrote...

It would be AWESOME to have that again, but alas, this stupid friendship/rivalry meter doesn't allow this, and Gaider said they plan on keeping it. So, tough luck.

I don't mind the friendship/rivalry meter in DA2, nor would I mind it being in DA3 if they tweak things abit (It wasn't too dissimilar to the approval/disapproval meter in DA:O.) However, what I don't want to see in DA3 is the new protagonist being able to romance all the love interests even when they're in rivalry with your character.

Some companions personalities (like Isabela) are perfectly suited to a rival-mance because she's the type of character who enjoys drama, likes the challenge and clearly enjoys a bit of fire in her relationships. BUT I can't imagine a companion with a personality like Merrill's ever wanting to date someone who has treated her badly enough to put her into a rival state of mind. What was seriously lacking in DA2 was the opportunity to develop your relationships/friendships and a slower more realistic pace, instead giving us a flirt/flirt/kiss/shag/kiss event that felt shallow and severely lacking.

I'm hoping DA3 will return to the approach they took with relationships in DA:O, spanning across the entire game, allowing you to get to know your companions at your leisure, in which you start out as acquaintances, getting to know them until a friendship blossoms, then you're given the option to flirt and slowly pursue a romantic relationship with the character who will react accordingly in their own individual way.

Modifié par LolaLei, 14 avril 2012 - 02:44 .

[AkiKishi]

@hhh89 Thanks for taking the time to look that up.

[The Elder King]

BobSmith101 wrote...

@hhh89 Thanks for taking the time to look that up.

No problem.

[LolaLei]

hhh89 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...


I heard the same thing as Throri unfortunately. Any idea how long you ago you heard different ? I believe there is a statement regarding rivalry in the companion thread.

I found it:

David Gaider wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

I think that with the rivalry/friendship system the relationship system was much better in DA2 than it was in DA:O.
but it also had some problems, if you did not completely (dis-)agree with a companion.
Fenris
and a freedom loving Hawke seem to be the prime example getting
friendship for killing slavers and rivalry for defending mages. Now that
would not be such a problem if the relationship was not measured in
relationship=friendship-rivalry, so that even if you bring him along the
whole game his relationship hovers around 0 most of the time since you
earn both friendship and rivalry points at roughly the same speed.
I
think a better system for DA3 would be similar to the reputation system
we have in ME3. So that the relationship is measured by the sum of both
friendship and rivalry, and the tone of the relationship is set by the
difference.

Yes, we've reached much the same
conclusion. The system works pretty well, but breaks down when we tie it
to more than one issue... which you sort of have to, unless you intend
for the character to have a single-note that they beat throughout the
entire game. If the player feels differently about those issues, then
you "hover" and the relationship goes nowhere.

While we've
several options on how to deal with this, I'm open to thoughts on the
subject. What I'm leaning towards is disassociating the progression of
the relationship from the point values and instead letting the point
values determine the tone of that relationship-- and anything triggered
by reaching a relationship stage being "extra", as it were.

And
very likely the friendship/rivalry will go back to being "I like you"/"I
don't like you" as in Origins. The DA2 version was more nuanced, but
also more difficult for players to understand-- most of whom thought
rivalry was a penalty of some kind anyhow (or this is my impression).
While I would not want to go back to the Origins method of rivalry
equalling no interaction, I think having it be about the general
attitude and not about how much you agree with their personal issue is a
bit easier for folks to wrap their heads around.

Again, this is
by no means final. Just where we're leaning. Before anyone asks, we're
not at the point where I can lay out what the detailed plans are for
changes-- as they don't exist at this point.

It's not a sure thing, but there are good chances or turning back to the approval/disapproval system.
Gaider posted this 22 days ago in the "Suggestions for Approval Points in DA3" thread.

That sounds a lot more promising for DA3, lets hope they're able to impliment it.

[berelinde]

Why would friendship or rivalry have anything to do with hardening a companion?

IIRC, hardening Alistair or Leliana had more to do with the dialogue options chosen during their quest than their feelings toward the Warden. I never did Leliana's quests (not a Leliana fan), but with Alistair's, all you had to do was tell him that everybody was out for themselves and then choose any option other than "I was wrong; never change" in the follow-up conversation.

[Huntress]

The question is did you really hardened them? leliana never leave the chantry and no matter what she works for the Divine and alistair always want to break up with the warden.

Modifié par Huntress, 14 avril 2012 - 02:52 .

[PinkShoes]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IS ALWAYS NICE.

This.

[Pasquale1234]

^^ Me, too.

I love it when an NPC clearly demonstrates that their experiences - especially with the protag - changed them in some way. Isabela's comments if she returns at the end of Act 2 is a great example.

[GodWood]

I do like it being an option for some characters, but not all of them. Some should stay true to their convictions.

[Wulfram]

Hardening was basically Rivalry 1.0. You disagreed with them on something and persuaded them to change their views.

I wasn't all that keen on it - the starting lines were fairly obscure, and tended to be needlessly jerkish.

[Wulfram]

Rivals in DA2 are still your friend, really.

[Cultist]

DA2 could use Hardening in terms of shifting companions' beliefs towards that of players' choice via decisions during quests or dialogues. Alas, we can't turn Anders from hating Blood Magic, Sebastian from joining the Chantry and Merrill from liking the clan that shunned her.
We got such a perfect opportunity with Questioning Beliefs quests, but this quests resulted in nothing at all as they beared no consequences.

[Realmzmaster]

Rivalry does not preclude friendship or romance. Hawke mage is at odds with Craver, but they are still siblings and will defend each other. Rivalry does not make the companion an enemy. Rivalry means you have opposing views.

Hardening in DAO was a dialogue option which had zero to do with approval/disapproval. You can have Alistair on 100% approval he will still leave if you spare Loghain. He leaves because he is your friend. I would like to have seen Alistair attack Loghain if the warden had a zero or disapproval rating with the Alistair. The warden would then have to decide whether to defend Loghain or allow the attack.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 14 avril 2012 - 06:11 .

[Big I]

What we're really talking about here is having a PC impact on NPCs, which both DA:O and DA2 had. In DA2 it was reminding Leliana that being a bard is awesome, and in DA2 it was rivaling Merril and getting her to break the mirror.


The problem with DA2 is there was no consistency. You could change the mind of Sebastian, Merril, and Isabella, and that was it. Rivalling Anders or Fenris changed nothing about them.


I found the DA:O system to be better to be honest. So there's only two hardening options, which are great but I'd like more of them. However if you did the quests and approval of characters without a hardening option, eg Sten, you get to share a tender moment or whatever where Zevran helps you against the crows or Shale mentions being friends. Compare that to DA2 rivalry, where it's just Hawke being a jerk to their companions, without a story payoff for most of them.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 15 avril 2012 - 09:16 .