149 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Every time I think I've seen the silliest post of the month, someone lowers the bar a little more. Congratulations, OP.

[SalsaDMA]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

DxWill103 wrote...

I thought it was pretty much established Reapers couldn't be defeated conventionally since ME1. If they could, I don't think they would have been able to successfully harvest civilizations for millions of years without fail

By that logic, it shouldn't be possible to defeat them *at all*.

Assuming your protagonist is at some point required to defeat your villains, portraying those villains as undefeatable is just silly. You wind up painting yourself into a corner which you can only paint yourself out of using some very tenuous plot devices.

Which was basicly what they did, as far as I am aware.

I personally feel they could have made it quite plausible for a conventional victory (given the difference in the cycle compared to previous cycles of the galaxy having not only delayed the harvest, but also foiled the initial splintering and actually being aware of the enemies capabilities and tactical experiences as well as being able to communicate between and organize forces), and I think it would have been far more satisfying as well.

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

All the examples are cases where allied forces are able to take down a Reaper with overwhelming force (one Reaper vs an entire fleet). And whilst some people have argued that it should be possible (e.g. by ramming at FTL speed), you are told at very nearly every point that conventional victory is impossible. That means that the writers have provided insufficient hand-waving, and not that conventional victory is possible.

Also, one reaper versus a *really big bug*.

Again, I'm not arguing that it is canonically the case that conventional victory over the reapers is possible (it clearly isn't, because you need the Space Magic even with maximum EMS), I'm just pointing out that there is no logical *reason* it should be impossible other than authorial fiat.

[translationninja]

I think OP is on to something here. a) indeed, a reaper got pwned by an oversized worm of all things, and there is such a thing as guerilla tactics.

Which opens up yet a whole different can of worms again (pun intended), Shep has seen reapers defeated. He's done sovereign in, he did the one on Rannoch, this makes the fact that he just rolls over for Starbrat even more unbelievable. Mind you, the Prothean cycle harvest took over 100 years, I'm pretty sure with that time available someone would have come up with a way to build a "cannon that shoots thresher maws"

[Han Shot First]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Mass Effect is a work of fiction, the fleet could have defeated the reapers conventionally if the game was designed to allow the reapers to be beaten conventionally. Since the entire game is about building up your conventional military assets, I personally think it would have been a better ending.

The writers could have gone for that angle, and it might have worked.

But in order to have the Citadel civilizations defeat the Reapers conventionally, Mass Effect 2 would have had to have been a very different game. They'd have to have the Citadel civilizations narrow the technological gap between their fleets and the Reapers in that game, as Mass Effect 3 would have been too late for that. Even if Shepard recovered Reaper tech in ME3, the Citadel fleets would not have been able to go into drydock and upgrade their hulls, shielding and weaponry while the Reapers were in the process of invading. Upgrades would be time consuming and while in drydock the ships would be vulnerable, and a prime target for the Reapers. Shipyards would be among the first targets hit in an invasion.

I confess my ME lore is spotty, but I'm not sure how you go from "the Reapers have superior technology" to "the only way to defeat the reapers is to develop technology equivalent to theirs."

I mean in ME3 a Reaper is killed by a *thresher maw*. A purely organic creature with no weapons beyond those it evolved naturally. There is no scientifically plausible way that reapers can be vulnerable to animal attacks but impervious to starship weapons.

The class of Reaper that was taken down by the Thresher Maw was a destroyer. They are the smaller Reapers. The dreadnought class Reaper ships (like Sovereign & Harbinger) can only be taken down by the equivalent of the combined firepower of three Citadel dreadnoughts. Since there is nothing in the game that indicates that the civilizations of the galaxy have three times as many dreadnoughts as the Reapers, the civilizations of the galaxy would not be able to defeat the Reapers by conventional means. This is especially true considering that the Reapers initially caught the galaxy off guard and destroyed several fleets.

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

Han Shot First wrote...

The class of Reaper that was taken down by the Thresher Maw was a destroyer. They are the smaller Reapers. The dreadnought class Reaper ships (like Sovereign & Harbinger) can only be taken down by the equivalent of the combined firepower of three Citadel dreadnoughts. Since there is nothing in the game that indicates that the civilizations of the galaxy have three times as many dreadnoughts as the Reapers, the civilizations of the galaxy would not be able to defeat the Reapers by conventional means. This is especially true considering that the Reapers initially caught the galaxy off guard and destroyed several fleets.

I'm pretty sure there's no evidence *at all* about how many ships *anybody* has. Nor is there any *consistent* information about how powerful any given ship is, how hard it is to destroy a ship, or even what you have to do to a ship to destroy it.

Can you kill a reaper by ramming it at lightspeed? Can you kill a reaper by grappling it and towing it into a star? Can you kill a reaper by asking it to divide by zero or keying W-H-Y-? into its mainframe? How much firepower does a Citadel Dreadnought have anyway?

Again, I'm not arguing that it is canonically possible to defeat the reapers conventionally in the ME games as they were written because it clearly *isn't*. I'm just arguing that the plot of ME3 would have made more *sense* if you'd been uniting the galaxy to fight the reapers in order to, well, fight the reapers, rather than in order to ... what, stand there and cheerlead while you fired up the superweapon?

[Han Shot First]

I'm pretty sure there's no evidence *at all* about how many ships *anybody* has. Nor is there any *consistent* information about how powerful any given ship is, how hard it is to destroy a ship, or even what you have to do to a ship to destroy it.

The codex states that it takes the equivalent of three dreadnoughts to destroy a single Reaper dreadnought. In no cutscene do we see any suggestion that the civilizations of the galaxy possess that significant a quantitative edge to offset Reaper advantages in technology. In fact, since the war strategy Hackett and the other military leaders of the galaxy are betting all their chips on involves a desperate gamble with a superweapon, it is a safe assumption that it was the only option available to them. Hackett never suggests that they could defeat the Reapers by conventional means. In fact, the Admiral suggests the opposite.

Also the Reapers managed to stike the first blow and destroyed a great number of ships, including dreadnoughts. Those flaming meteors we saw descending into Earth's atmosphere during the first mission were the remains of an Alliance fleet that had been decimated by the Reapers. The Turians and Asari have been hit just as hard by the end game.

[animadpig]

I think it is possible to defeat the reaper conventionally. However, it might be required a lot of resource and time to develop certain technology, and that are something the galaxy do not have. So, you will have this conclusion, "The reaper can not be defeat conventionally." The evidence is from that stupid Starchild because he said that the created always want to destroy the creator.

[ProtoMan 2.0]

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...

You all have fair points but what about the Reapers that get decimated at the beginning of the battle to take back Earth, I figure that was proof we could have ignored the crucible entirely and still won.

What Reapers got decimated? The one destroyer that took the might of the entire ground force to take down?

[Vasarkian]

They can be beaten with technology developed from their own weapons and defenses, but they need a sufficient force to do so and it needs to have a plan.

[AlanC9]

Han Shot First wrote...
The codex states that it takes the equivalent of three dreadnoughts to destroy a single Reaper dreadnought. In no cutscene do we see any suggestion that the civilizations of the galaxy possess that significant a quantitative edge to offset Reaper advantages in technology.

Given the number of Citadel dreadnoughts, that much numerical superiority would require that there be only a couple of dozen Soevereign-class reapers.

In any event, since the Reapers' mass effect drives are superior to anything the Citadel has, there's no way for even a numerically-superior Citadel fleet to actually bring the Reapers to decisive battle. The Citadel races have home planets to defend, but the Reapers don't. They can just fly around the Citadel fleet and blow up planets one after another, until the galactic economy collapses and the Citaldel fleets can no longer be supported.

[AkiKishi]

Taurians killed 5 of the cap ship types so they can be destroyed.

[AlanC9]

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Every time I think I've seen the silliest post of the month, someone lowers the bar a little more. Congratulations, OP.

Read the rest of the thread before saying something stupid because that's what you just did.

I did read it. The first several posts were from people who thought you didn't know what you were talking about. And they were right.

[AlanC9]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Taurians killed 5 of the cap ship types so they can be destroyed.

The Japanese sank a US carrier at Leyte Gulf too. That didn't mean they had any chance of actually defeating the US there.

Edit: sure, they could have done a version of ME3 where there weren't very many Reapers (the ME2 end cutscene could be handwaved away as showing mostly destroyer-class Reapers). But that isn't the situation in the ME3 they did make.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 avril 2012 - 07:16 .

[AlanC9]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...
I'm pretty sure there's no evidence *at all* about how many ships *anybody* has..

The codex gives figures for dreadnoughts. And how Citadel dreadnaughts fare against Reapers.

[Trell073]

The only way I could see the Reapers being beaten conventionally would be if the end of Mass Effect 1 everyone believed in the Reapers and prepared for war and had many preparations, but no one was ready and it didn't help that they kinda sneak attacked and took the Batarians out right away and basically hit straight for earth. There is no good conventional way to actually win it takes far too much to take'em down. They could be given a good fight though.

[AlanC9]

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...


No I do. Read the Whole thread.

I did. All you've got is that some of the smaller reapers were destroyed in battle. Somehow you got from there to thinking that an outright victory is possible, based on nothing much except that you really, really want to believe that.

[Vasarkian]

AlanC9 wrote...

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...


No I do. Read the Whole thread.

I did. All you've got is that some of the smaller reapers were destroyed in battle. Somehow you got from there to thinking that an outright victory is possible, based on nothing much except that you really, really want to believe that.

It was stated in planet descriptions and other information in the game that the Turians took out a large number of forces sent there, including Capital Ships and Sovereign-class ships.

[TheMightyG00sh]

Man how many of the three games have you played?

Sovereign had just used the energy he WOULD have used to power his shields to bring Saren back from the dead in a fully huskified form, following Saren's death he was left defenseless to the ENTIRE Alliance Fleet. AN ENTIRE FLEET!

On Tuchanka it took a giant thresher maw to kill a reaper. A GIANT THRESHER MAW!

On Rannoch it takes an entire Quarian Fleet (THE LARGEST FLEET IN THE GALAXY!) AND the most advanced ship in the galaxy to kill the Reapers that landed before Shepard. AN ENTIRE FLEET!

Honestly how do you not see the single most important thing here. It takes ENTIRE FLEETS to take down ONE reaper and it takes ALOT of ammunition. Now how exactly do you look to getting 10,000+ fleets the size of the Alliance or the Migrant Fleet when the only true rivals to the Humans and Quarians are the Turians and Geth in terms of orbital warfare?

THAT is what Anderon means. Sure ONE can be beaten conventionally but the Reaper army CANNOT,

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...


No I do. Read the Whole thread.

I
did. All you've got is that some of the smaller reapers were destroyed
in battle. Somehow you got from there to thinking that an outright
victory is possible, based on nothing much except that you really,
really want to believe that.

It was stated in
planet descriptions and other information in the game that the Turians
took out a large number of forces sent there, including Capital Ships
and Sovereign-class ships.

Exactly, they are entirely beatable. 

Just because it included Capital and Sovereign-class ships doesn't mean that the reapers sent an army en masse. The reapers only sent a few ships to land a foothold on Tuchanka, and sent even fewer (ONE) to Rannoch. The turians are a military race meaning they have a large amount of ships and more than likely have more planetary based orbital defenses than most other races. Also at the time of the Reaper invasion a large amount of Reaper forces were being controlled by the Geth. It is possible that ships outside of the Veil would also be under Reaper control given the group mentality Geth share through the Neural Network and their use of a democratic based "consensus" (or however it's spelled).

Another possibility is that the Reapers sent a small force their in hopes that the uprising would be obescelite or at least not powerful enough to destroy them. They could have sent a Capital Ship and once they realised it was destroyed sent a slightly larger force  which were in turn destroyed. This would in my mind be similar to what happened on Feros. A small colony that put up a hell of a fight.

Also noteworthy is that the Derelict Reaper in Mass Effect 2 was destroyed by an orbital cannon with little to no evidence of help from a major fleet. (and if the reapers would cleanse that system of all those ships why would they leave one singular derelict reaper behind?

Modifié par TheMightyG00sh, 14 avril 2012 - 07:37 .

[Vormaerin]

Vasarkian wrote...

It was stated in planet descriptions and other information in the game that the Turians took out a large number of forces sent there, including Capital Ships and Sovereign-class ships.

Very nice selective reading there.   The Turians destroyed some ships in an ambush that allowed them to get to point blank range on the otherwise faster and ECM superior reapers.   And the Turians still got spanked and sent to their rooms without supper.

Or did you miss the part where that glorious Turian sucess didn't exactly slow the reapers down at all and the Turians were later forced to abandon any pretense of fighting the reapers in space so they'd still have a fleet at all for the crucible run?

The Asari were able to do some damage to the reapers with their hit and run fighting, too.  Until the reapers said  "Oh, that's nice.  Btw, Thessia is a cinderblock now."

Claiming that pyrhhic victories can result in winning the war against a foe with a foe not subject to psychological warfare factors is extremely uncompelling.