149 réponses à ce sujet

[Vasarkian]

Vormaerin wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

It was stated in planet descriptions and other information in the game that the Turians took out a large number of forces sent there, including Capital Ships and Sovereign-class ships.

Very nice selective reading there.   The Turians destroyed some ships in an ambush that allowed them to get to point blank range on the otherwise faster and ECM superior reapers.   And the Turians still got spanked and sent to their rooms without supper.

Or did you miss the part where that glorious Turian sucess didn't exactly slow the reapers down at all and the Turians were later forced to abandon any pretense of fighting the reapers in space so they'd still have a fleet at all for the crucible run?

The Asari were able to do some damage to the reapers with their hit and run fighting, too.  Until the reapers said  "Oh, that's nice.  Btw, Thessia is a cinderblock now."

Claiming that pyrhhic victories can result in winning the war against a foe with a foe not subject to psychological warfare factors is extremely uncompelling.

SEems you're doing some selective reading too. Not being a hypocrite now are you?

Even once the battle finally came to their planet they still put up a hell of a fight and took down many ships. The issue was they had no reinforcements and no one else came and they were taken in relative-standards by surprise.

The game also tends to forget or randomly remember that every Turian ship is supposed to be equipped with Thanix cannons, and yet... it doesn't work out that way. 

Mass Effect 3 had continuity AND plot issues in those regards, one of the reasons many plot holes exist.

Modifié par Vasarkian, 14 avril 2012 - 07:37 .

[billywaffles]

Well, it is impossible. Did you really played the entire game?

I won't comment here about this matter, no spoilers here. But I suggest you to replay the game. If you have the dlc from ashes, better.

[Vasarkian]

billywaffles wrote...

Well, it is impossible. Did you really played the entire game?

I won't comment here about this matter, no spoilers here. But I suggest you to replay the game. If you have the dlc from ashes, better.

*Cough*

The entirety of the prime military and forces as well as government of the Prothean Empire was taken out with the Citadel surprise attack, and then the relays were shutdown immediately causing everyone to be separated. This is not the case with the timeline in ME 1 - 2 - 3.

Thus your point is fallactical.

[The Milky Waver]

Sovereign was just one reaper, with its shields down due to Saren's husk's destruction, against an entire fleet. In ME3, there are hundreds of reapers at earth, with their shields up.

[Vasarkian]

The Milky Waver wrote...

Sovereign was just one reaper, with its shields down due to Saren's husk's destruction, against an entire fleet. In ME3, there are hundreds of reapers at earth, with their shields up.

That's difficult to say.

First, we've no idea how much energy travelling that much through Dark Space took from them, so their shields and fuel fabricators or whatever they use might be prohibitively low.

Also, we now have thanix weapons everywhere based on the Reapers own weapon systems. True, we never actually use them in game because of plot holes and continuity errors all over the place, but a few descriptions and codex entries indicate we have these all over the place, as well as micro-black hole missiles shot from dreadnoughts.

[billywaffles]

Vasarkian wrote...

billywaffles wrote...

Well, it is impossible. Did you really played the entire game?

I won't comment here about this matter, no spoilers here. But I suggest you to replay the game. If you have the dlc from ashes, better.

*Cough*

The entirety of the prime military and forces as well as government of the Prothean Empire was taken out with the Citadel surprise attack, and then the relays were shutdown immediately causing everyone to be separated. This is not the case with the timeline in ME 1 - 2 - 3.

Thus your point is fallactical.

Well we don't have to agree, you know.

[Vasarkian]

billywaffles wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

billywaffles wrote...

Well, it is impossible. Did you really played the entire game?

I won't comment here about this matter, no spoilers here. But I suggest you to replay the game. If you have the dlc from ashes, better.

*Cough*

The entirety of the prime military and forces as well as government of the Prothean Empire was taken out with the Citadel surprise attack, and then the relays were shutdown immediately causing everyone to be separated. This is not the case with the timeline in ME 1 - 2 - 3.

Thus your point is fallactical.

Well we don't have to agree, you know.

This is not a case of agreeing, it's a situation of you not being privy or ignoring whether intentionally or otherwise, points and issues that make your statement nullified.

[Vormaerin]

Vasarkian wrote...

SEems you're doing some selective reading too. Not being a hypocrite now are you?

Even once the battle finally came to their planet they still put up a hell of a fight and took down many ships. The issue was they had no reinforcements and no one else came and they were taken in relative-standards by surprise.

The game also tends to forget or randomly remember that every Turian ship is supposed to be equipped with Thanix cannons, and yet... it doesn't work out that way. 

Mass Effect 3 had continuity AND plot issues in those regards, one of the reasons many plot holes exist.

Yeah, sure, they do damage.  Who cares?  All this "damage" they are doing and they still lose badly enough that Vakarian and Victus have to order the fleet to abandon all pretense of offensive naval operations to avoid being utterly annihilated.

The comment about reinforcements actually goes strongly against your point.   That is the whole problem.  The reapers are attacking almost everywhere.  They took on the Terrans and Turians, the two strongest Council militaries, and kicked them around while also invading dozens of other planets.

The reapers could bring more forces to Palavan if they needed to.  The Turians can't.   The only fleets that aren't already losing to the reapers are the Geth and the Quarians, who are busy fighting each other.

As for the Thanix cannons and other improvements, what evidence do you have that that isn't the reason their fleet is doing so much better than anyone else's?  Still not good enough, of course.   But better than anyone else.

[Vasarkian]

Vormaerin wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

SEems you're doing some selective reading too. Not being a hypocrite now are you?

Even once the battle finally came to their planet they still put up a hell of a fight and took down many ships. The issue was they had no reinforcements and no one else came and they were taken in relative-standards by surprise.

The game also tends to forget or randomly remember that every Turian ship is supposed to be equipped with Thanix cannons, and yet... it doesn't work out that way. 

Mass Effect 3 had continuity AND plot issues in those regards, one of the reasons many plot holes exist.

Yeah, sure, they do damage.  Who cares?  All this "damage" they are doing and they still lose badly enough that Vakarian and Victus have to order the fleet to abandon all pretense of offensive naval operations to avoid being utterly annihilated.

The comment about reinforcements actually goes strongly against your point.   That is the whole problem.  The reapers are attacking almost everywhere.  They took on the Terrans and Turians, the two strongest Council militaries, and kicked them around while also invading dozens of other planets.

The reapers could bring more forces to Palavan if they needed to.  The Turians can't.   The only fleets that aren't already losing to the reapers are the Geth and the Quarians, who are busy fighting each other.

As for the Thanix cannons and other improvements, what evidence do you have that that isn't the reason their fleet is doing so much better than anyone else's?  Still not good enough, of course.   But better than anyone else.

Well all the Humans supposedly have them to, and pretty much every military decided to adopt them, and yet we don't actually see that, and in some logs it goes against the sense that they're using them. We also never actually see them being fired, not even by the Turian ships we're with.

I think if the plot holes were fixed the Turians would of done much better.

[Alibenbaba]

*A* reaper can be beaten conventionally.
*All of them* are too overwhelming to beat conventionally, aka hold the line and go at it. A war of attrition is not feasible either because the reapers increase in strength for every planet they harvest while the civilizations aren't able to replace losses as fast, especially with all the major systems already lost.
So, how would they beat them without a deus ex machina?

[Kalas82]

Vasarkian wrote...

billywaffles wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

billywaffles wrote...

Well, it is impossible. Did you really played the entire game?

I won't comment here about this matter, no spoilers here. But I suggest you to replay the game. If you have the dlc from ashes, better.

*Cough*

The entirety of the prime military and forces as well as government of the Prothean Empire was taken out with the Citadel surprise attack, and then the relays were shutdown immediately causing everyone to be separated. This is not the case with the timeline in ME 1 - 2 - 3.

Thus your point is fallactical.

Well we don't have to agree, you know.

This is not a case of agreeing, it's a situation of you not being privy or ignoring whether intentionally or otherwise, points and issues that make your statement nullified.

i wouldn`t bother . Chances of changing anyones opinion on the internets is less than zero, even if you got facts, logic, sense backing ur point of view up.
All the people that argue that defeating the reapers by conventional warfare is impossible got are some codes-entrys and some lines of dialogue, that is if you don`t take the development team into account.
Other lines of dialogue clearly state how the reapers won so easily, what their tactics are and one thing Shepard did during all games was sabotaging that tactic while gettin his hands on reaper-tec.
You see reapers blown apart to the left and right during ME3, no matter if it`s their walker-goons, their ground-grunts, even if you take ME1 and the final battle into account, well there`s a whole Geth-fleet and actualy not that many defence comparing it to the massive fleet earth got.
I think the problem is that ME itself isn`t sure what it shall be or what the reapers shall be or how Shepard will defeat them...i bet those decisions were made somewhat during the ME3-creation-phase and were not clear as ME1 was created....i actualy remember some writer even adminting that the whole trilogy wasn`t a set-story from the start, just ideas...but i`m not sure on that one.
But honestly someone who states that the magic-wand-crucible and space-god made more sense than conventional warfare just isn`t fit for a discussion..cause he is blindly adepting everything the game presented him...no one in his right mind can argue that way.
Even a sad ending were earths fleet got blown apart and just a minor percent of the races would`ve survived is more  logical than the story-telling-abomination we got currently.
Heck why not use the Saren-part and make the crucibel and the TIM-reaper-signal-side-plot  a tool to get the reapers shields down...would`ve made too much sense eh?

[Vormaerin]

The weakness of the reapers is that they want to take people alive for harvesting. As a result, they commit to ground warfare where they are lose much of their advantages. The reaper troops are not intrinsically better than galactic troops and the reaper ships themselves end up diverting a lot of their power to their mass effect fields in order to be functional in a gravity well.

For all that, they are still winning and winning pretty handily. Especially in space. We do some some of the smaller reapers getting destroyed. We do hear of a few reaper capital ships being destroyed. We also hear and see the carnage these minor victories are taking on the allied fleets.

Why we are supposed to believe a handful of clearly hollywoodized cutscenes (or do you think that ships make "zoom" sounds as they fly by in space? Or that entire fleets can appear in formation through a relay when its established that the relay arrivals are inaccurate?) Or should we believe all the written codex entries and the assessments of the in-game experts like Hackett and Victus?

There's no evidence that the reapers are losing overall. The descriptions from Hackett in the end indicate that our "everything we can possibly muster" fleet isn't exactly winning against part of the reaper fleet at Earth.

We are doing a heck of a lot of damage to them, but winning is a different thing than just doing damage. And even if we did win, what we have left has to get to Palavan and Thessia and everywhere else where reapers are still doing large scale attacks...

[SalsaDMA]

Alibenbaba wrote...

*A* reaper can be beaten conventionally.
*All of them* are too overwhelming to beat conventionally, aka hold the line and go at it. A war of attrition is not feasible either because the reapers increase in strength for every planet they harvest while the civilizations aren't able to replace losses as fast, especially with all the major systems already lost.
So, how would they beat them without a deus ex machina?

I was under the impression that creating new reapers took a little more dedication than creating new random warships did for the other races. And husks have a limited lifespan compared to other races too.

So hit and run tactics in a war of attrition seems like a very good option, imo.

[Vormaerin]

Kalas82 wrote...

Heck why not use the Saren-part and make the crucibel and the TIM-reaper-signal-side-plot  a tool to get the reapers shields down...would`ve made too much sense eh?

That's an entirely different argument.   That isn't an argument about defeating the reapers by military force.  That's an argument over what's the best type of space magic to win with.

[Vormaerin]

SalsaDMA wrote...

So hit and run tactics in a war of attrition seems like a very good option, imo.

Well, yeah, if we actually had access to our production facilities..   Its not like the shipyards of the Turians, Alliance, or Asari survived intact.

The crucible building thing is already more space magic-y than the actual ending.  Where did we do that?  What facilities for such massive construction are not covered in reapers on the galactic map?   What?  Huh?

[AlanC9]

SalsaDMA wrote...
I was under the impression that creating new reapers took a little more dedication than creating new random warships did for the other races. And husks have a limited lifespan compared to other races too.

So hit and run tactics in a war of attrition seems like a very good option, imo.

Wait a minute. How do the slower forces actually pull off hit and run tactics? You can hit (if the Reapers are careless), but how do you run?

It could work for a little while if the Reapers don't take Citadel forces seriously and disperse themselves all over the place. But after you win once or twice, they can just concentrate.

[AlanC9]

Vormaerin wrote...
The crucible building thing is already more space magic-y than the actual ending.  Where did we do that?  What facilities for such massive construction are not covered in reapers on the galactic map?   What?  Huh?

I wondered when someone was going to call them on that. While there doesn't seem to be any reason why you couldn't put a mass effect drive on pretty much anything and fly it around, it's hard to believe that Alliance drydocks are designed for it.

[incinerator950]

Tali seemed convinced she could make scrap metal do precision jumps in ME 2. A hidden region of space away from the conflict is easy enough to construct something.

[incinerator950]

Vasarkian wrote...

The Milky Waver wrote...

Sovereign was just one reaper, with its shields down due to Saren's husk's destruction, against an entire fleet. In ME3, there are hundreds of reapers at earth, with their shields up.

That's difficult to say.

First, we've no idea how much energy travelling that much through Dark Space took from them, so their shields and fuel fabricators or whatever they use might be prohibitively low.

Also, we now have thanix weapons everywhere based on the Reapers own weapon systems. True, we never actually use them in game because of plot holes and continuity errors all over the place, but a few descriptions and codex entries indicate we have these all over the place, as well as micro-black hole missiles shot from dreadnoughts.

No, we do know.  The Reapers decimated the Turians on the preemptive strike on their prime Colony.  The Battle of Paliven is what showed that the reapers can be destroyed, but the equivilant firepower is four Turian Dreadnaughts. 

Second, every application of force we've seen against the Reapers has not shown Thanix Cannons.  The War Assets and codex can say the Council races have them, it doesn't improve anything.  Thanix weapons are an improvement over regular Mass Accelerator cannons, but the Reapers have been doing this for millions of years.  They have the Hull and Shielding to survive these fights. 

Third, everyone is right about Paliven.  The Reapers committed a token force to take it, and in the end the combined Krogan/Turian force had to retreat to not be taken out.  The only innovation that proved somewhat useful were the Salarian Stealth dreadnaughts, and those still don't do much.

Earth was hit after Kar'shan.  It only took a dozen Sovereign class Capitals to bog down the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th fleet.  That was at Arcturus.  The 1st Fleet was guarding the Charon Relay, and was forced to run.  The 4th had little time to prepare, and was the fleet stationed at Earth with a 100% casualty rating.  6th and 7th Fleets were ignored by the Reapers when they bypassed the Systems Alliance Colonies.

So basically, no, you're not winning conventionally unless the Alliance has its own Reapers and you decide to use mobile Asteroids as weapons against Reapers or Mass Relays.  The codex states why the Council races are refusing to do that too, so that won't work either.

[SalsaDMA]

AlanC9 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
I was under the impression that creating new reapers took a little more dedication than creating new random warships did for the other races. And husks have a limited lifespan compared to other races too.

So hit and run tactics in a war of attrition seems like a very good option, imo.

Wait a minute. How do the slower forces actually pull off hit and run tactics? You can hit (if the Reapers are careless), but how do you run?

It could work for a little while if the Reapers don't take Citadel forces seriously and disperse themselves all over the place. But after you win once or twice, they can just concentrate.

Hit and run doesn't imply charging into a superior force and then running off.

IT implies you ambush soft targets where you have superior assets in play. Strangle off lone reapers or small packs, rather than go for the full confrontation. "Running" happens when you killed the pack/target, so you aren't running from forces in the engagement itself, but before re-inforcements can arrive.

If reapers stretch out to cover alot of the galaxy, they become vulnerable to this kind of things. If they focus their forces to better withstand such tactics, they open up for better re-inforcement and production capabilities of their opponenets. Both cases are a bad sitatuation for them. Especially when they themselves can't re-inforce as easy as the allied forces can.

Sure, things would take eons to wrap up, but it would be a plausible way to do it.

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

TheMightyG00sh wrote...


On Tuchanka it took a giant thresher maw to kill a reaper. A GIANT THRESHER MAW!

On Rannoch it takes an entire Quarian Fleet (THE LARGEST FLEET IN THE GALAXY!) AND the most advanced ship in the galaxy to kill the Reapers that landed before Shepard. AN ENTIRE FLEET!

This is more or less exactly the issue, though.

"An entire fleet" and "a giant thresher maw" are not commensurable units and neither Reapers, nor Alliance vessels (nor, for that matter, Threser Maws) have consistent abilities, weaknesses, or levels of power. The amount of firepower it took to kill a Reaper was *always* the amount of firepower that produced the coolest cutscene (or best sense of encroaching doom), no more and no less.

To look at it another way, it's a remarkable coincidence that the Reapers were *just powerful enough* that the galaxy had no hope of defeating them by conventional means, but *not quite powerful enough* to destroy the superweapon before it was activated. I'm not sure I can even understand where that sweet spot might lie. If the Reapers really are as powerful as everybody insists, then they should not have been able to lose *at all*.

[incinerator950]

SalsaDMA wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
I was under the impression that creating new reapers took a little more dedication than creating new random warships did for the other races. And husks have a limited lifespan compared to other races too.

So hit and run tactics in a war of attrition seems like a very good option, imo.

Wait a minute. How do the slower forces actually pull off hit and run tactics? You can hit (if the Reapers are careless), but how do you run?

It could work for a little while if the Reapers don't take Citadel forces seriously and disperse themselves all over the place. But after you win once or twice, they can just concentrate.

Hit and run doesn't imply charging into a superior force and then running off.

IT implies you ambush soft targets where you have superior assets in play. Strangle off lone reapers or small packs, rather than go for the full confrontation. "Running" happens when you killed the pack/target, so you aren't running from forces in the engagement itself, but before re-inforcements can arrive.

If reapers stretch out to cover alot of the galaxy, they become vulnerable to this kind of things. If they focus their forces to better withstand such tactics, they open up for better re-inforcement and production capabilities of their opponenets. Both cases are a bad sitatuation for them. Especially when they themselves can't re-inforce as easy as the allied forces can.

Sure, things would take eons to wrap up, but it would be a plausible way to do it.

That theoretically could happen.  However, we've seen what happened to the Asari.  They were using these tactics, which originally were a hinderance to the Reapers.  Then they started hitting the Asari main colonies and finally Thessia, and the Asari could no longer fight these hit and run styles.  The final battle should be an indication the Asari and Turians do not have a large enough standing force to commit these Hit and run styles.  The Reaper horde is everywhere, but once the Reapers clean up one theatre, going to the next will be easier. 

The Reapers have the patience, time, numbers and firepower to win this war.  The Organic races do not. 

[billywaffles]

Vasarkian wrote...

billywaffles wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

billywaffles wrote...

Well, it is impossible. Did you really played the entire game?

I won't comment here about this matter, no spoilers here. But I suggest you to replay the game. If you have the dlc from ashes, better.

*Cough*

The entirety of the prime military and forces as well as government of the Prothean Empire was taken out with the Citadel surprise attack, and then the relays were shutdown immediately causing everyone to be separated. This is not the case with the timeline in ME 1 - 2 - 3.

Thus your point is fallactical.

Well we don't have to agree, you know.

This is not a case of agreeing, it's a situation of you not being privy or ignoring whether intentionally or otherwise, points and issues that make your statement nullified.

It is a no spoilers forum, send a pm and we will discuss if you want.

[Vasarkian]

incinerator950 wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

The Milky Waver wrote...

Sovereign was just one reaper, with its shields down due to Saren's husk's destruction, against an entire fleet. In ME3, there are hundreds of reapers at earth, with their shields up.

That's difficult to say.

First, we've no idea how much energy travelling that much through Dark Space took from them, so their shields and fuel fabricators or whatever they use might be prohibitively low.

Also, we now have thanix weapons everywhere based on the Reapers own weapon systems. True, we never actually use them in game because of plot holes and continuity errors all over the place, but a few descriptions and codex entries indicate we have these all over the place, as well as micro-black hole missiles shot from dreadnoughts.

No, we do know.  The Reapers decimated the Turians on the preemptive strike on their prime Colony.  The Battle of Paliven is what showed that the reapers can be destroyed, but the equivilant firepower is four Turian Dreadnaughts. 

Second, every application of force we've seen against the Reapers has not shown Thanix Cannons.  The War Assets and codex can say the Council races have them, it doesn't improve anything.  Thanix weapons are an improvement over regular Mass Accelerator cannons, but the Reapers have been doing this for millions of years.  They have the Hull and Shielding to survive these fights. 

Third, everyone is right about Paliven.  The Reapers committed a token force to take it, and in the end the combined Krogan/Turian force had to retreat to not be taken out.  The only innovation that proved somewhat useful were the Salarian Stealth dreadnaughts, and those still don't do much.

Earth was hit after Kar'shan.  It only took a dozen Sovereign class Capitals to bog down the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th fleet.  That was at Arcturus.  The 1st Fleet was guarding the Charon Relay, and was forced to run.  The 4th had little time to prepare, and was the fleet stationed at Earth with a 100% casualty rating.  6th and 7th Fleets were ignored by the Reapers when they bypassed the Systems Alliance Colonies.

So basically, no, you're not winning conventionally unless the Alliance has its own Reapers and you decide to use mobile Asteroids as weapons against Reapers or Mass Relays.  The codex states why the Council races are refusing to do that too, so that won't work either.

I have to disagree, you yourself state we never see THanix's yet everyone's equipped with them, this is an issue of continuity and lore not being properly demonstrated in the game because if they did it then the game wouldn't work.

[Vasarkian]

billywaffles wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

billywaffles wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

billywaffles wrote...

Well, it is impossible. Did you really played the entire game?

I won't comment here about this matter, no spoilers here. But I suggest you to replay the game. If you have the dlc from ashes, better.

*Cough*

The entirety of the prime military and forces as well as government of the Prothean Empire was taken out with the Citadel surprise attack, and then the relays were shutdown immediately causing everyone to be separated. This is not the case with the timeline in ME 1 - 2 - 3.

Thus your point is fallactical.

Well we don't have to agree, you know.

This is not a case of agreeing, it's a situation of you not being privy or ignoring whether intentionally or otherwise, points and issues that make your statement nullified.

It is a no spoilers forum, send a pm and we will discuss if you want.

Spoiler...

This is a no ME3 spoiler, what I'm telling you is a spoiler for ME1.