149 réponses à ce sujet

[JBONE27]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

@ Tango

You still run into the problem of Hackett flat out telling Shepard that the Reapers cannot be defeated by conventional means, and not a single Alliance or Alien officer suggesting otherwise. In fact they all place their bets on the Crucible.

That can only mean one of two things: Either every single officer in a high command position in the galaxy is a bumbling incompetent, or the Reapers truly can't be defeated by conventional means.

The latter is far more plausible.

The reason things like hackets statement appears in the game, is because the writers need to try and make their mcguffin have a point for existing.

The problem, as I see it, is that the writing on the reapers is inconsistant. I personally believe it would have made for a more satisfying ending if the reapers were destroyed because you united the galaxy against the common foe, rather than resorted to pulling a rabbit out of your hat.

I completely agree with this.  It fits in with the major themes such as diversity, teamwork, and defeating impossible odds.  As it stands we have a call to the minor themes of technological equalibrium, and organics vs. synthetics... neither of which has much emphasis in the lead up, and the former isn't really shown so much as told.  I will grant that the latter is definitely shown (main enemies of the first game, going up against the reapers), but neither of them are as enforced as the other three.

[Mizar_Panzar]

You can certainly destroy reapers (including the capital class ones), it is stated clearly in the codex that 3-4 dreadnaught can destroy a reaper dreadnaught, and the turians managed to inflict heavy casualties on the reaper fleet via conventional means.

The reason the reaper 'can't be defeated conventionally' is because A. they have a significant numerical advantage, the entire galaxy has less than 100 dreadnaughts yet there is far more reaper dreadnaughts and even more reaper cruisers and destroyers. and B. They do not rely on a supply chain and is capable of turning civilians into shock infantry.

[Tocquevillain]

The other important fact that many people are basing their "evidence" on is whatever the cutscenes show. Bioware already stated that the cutscenes were done the way popular entertainment shows space battles (close range), rather than how it would actually happen according to the codex (thousands of kilometres apart).

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

Tocquevillain wrote...

The other important fact that many people are basing their "evidence" on is whatever the cutscenes show. Bioware already stated that the cutscenes were done the way popular entertainment shows space battles (close range), rather than how it would actually happen according to the codex (thousands of kilometres apart).

The cutscenes show the events that *actually happen in the game world*.

The Codex shows how the writers initially thought things would happen in the game world.

Trusting the latter over the former is absurd.

[Vasarkian]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

Tocquevillain wrote...

The other important fact that many people are basing their "evidence" on is whatever the cutscenes show. Bioware already stated that the cutscenes were done the way popular entertainment shows space battles (close range), rather than how it would actually happen according to the codex (thousands of kilometres apart).

The cutscenes show the events that *actually happen in the game world*.

The Codex shows how the writers initially thought things would happen in the game world.

Trusting the latter over the former is absurd.

Actually, the fact they conflict means there are plot holes.

If you ignore what the writers say you destroy the continuity of the series as established.
If you ignore the actual gameplay, you destroy the immersion.

You can't side or ignore either of them, they should be matching. The gameplay SHOULD match the codex, because the codex actually follows established continuity and lore.

[Tocquevillain]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

Tocquevillain wrote...

The other important fact that many people are basing their "evidence" on is whatever the cutscenes show. Bioware already stated that the cutscenes were done the way popular entertainment shows space battles (close range), rather than how it would actually happen according to the codex (thousands of kilometres apart).

The cutscenes show the events that *actually happen in the game world*.

The Codex shows how the writers initially thought things would happen in the game world.

Trusting the latter over the former is absurd.

And we're going to agree to disagree. It was done a certain way so people would enjoy it all more.

Considering most people don't even read the codex though, of course people will choose the cutscenes. 

[vertigo72]

I think it's possible somehow, but it's very unlikely. If nobody in all previous cycles could beat them, what is the probability of beating them now? Protheans were even more advanced but still didn't manage to beat them.

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

Vasarkian wrote...

Actually, the fact they conflict means there are plot holes.

If you ignore what the writers say you destroy the continuity of the series as established.
If you ignore the actual gameplay, you destroy the immersion.

You can't side or ignore either of them, they should be matching. The gameplay SHOULD match the codex, because the codex actually follows established continuity and lore.

The fact that they conflict demonstrates that the galaxy operates, and has always operated, according to plot convenience, not according to a real set of physical laws detailed in an ingame document.

[Nezzer]

Well, in the final battle an Alliance cruiser manages to destroy a Reaper dreadnought (or at least cripple it).

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

Tocquevillain wrote...

And we're going to agree to disagree. It was done a certain way so people would enjoy it all more.

Considering most people don't even read the codex though, of course people will choose the cutscenes. 

Umm ... no, we're not going to agree to disagree, because this makes *no sense*.

Are you really saying that the battle over Earth did not in fact happen? How does that even *work*? What *do* you think happened?

[Vasarkian]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

Actually, the fact they conflict means there are plot holes.

If you ignore what the writers say you destroy the continuity of the series as established.
If you ignore the actual gameplay, you destroy the immersion.

You can't side or ignore either of them, they should be matching. The gameplay SHOULD match the codex, because the codex actually follows established continuity and lore.

The fact that they conflict demonstrates that the galaxy operates, and has always operated, according to plot convenience, not according to a real set of physical laws detailed in an ingame document.

That's fine and all but wrong.

If the plot doesn't match the continuity the game can never have a very good rating and never should.

The issue is really simple I'm not going to make exceptions for that.:happy:

[Tocquevillain]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

Tocquevillain wrote...

And we're going to agree to disagree. It was done a certain way so people would enjoy it all more.

Considering most people don't even read the codex though, of course people will choose the cutscenes. 

Umm ... no, we're not going to agree to disagree, because this makes *no sense*.

Are you really saying that the battle over Earth did not in fact happen? How does that even *work*? What *do* you think happened?

This entire argument is over what you *see* which was put there for entertainment, as opposed to what *is* in the universe, according to the codex. The cutscenes don't match the codex at all, because watching ships fight each other at ten thousand kilometres isn't fun. But let's combine the two for fun since that's what the game gives us.

The Treaty of Farixen stipulates the amount of dreadnoughts a navy may own, with the turian peacekeeping fleet being allowed the most. As of 2183, the turians had 37 dreadnoughts, the asari had 21, the salarians
had 16, and the Alliance had 6 with another under construction. As of
2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8
human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have
built a single dreadnought of their own.


So, there you have it. 85 ships, that can be destroyed in ten seconds each by a single Reaper (just see the Earth level as the Reaper destroys the dreadnought, and I don't even think that was a Sovereign class Reaper), and it takes 3 or 4 of them to destroy one Sovereign class Reaper according to the Codex.

In five minutes flat, those ships can be destroyed. Meanwhile, according to the Codex (again; see how important that is?) the Reapers (as is shown in the cutscenes) have hull defenses akin to the GARDIAN defenses, and they also have fighter ships. In a separate Codex entry, it is stated that the laser beam the Reapers use is basically the fighter ships they show flying around on the Earth level, Palaven cutscenes, and final battle. So, those things also *may* have thanix lasers.

So essentially, the dreadnoughts will be destroyed very quickly, the fighters will be destroyed. The fleet is screwed.

So now, let's think about something else, like why Shepard has enough time to get down there, destroy the ground-based cannon, establish a beachhead and then fight their way to the beam. It would take a few hours wouldn't it? But according to what has already been revealed by the Codex and cutscenes, Reapers dominate absolutely. Now, ever notice how Hammer gets absolutely destroyed? Reaper forces on the ground dominate. Ever notice how at the ending with the Starchild, the Reapers are roaming around in space killing at will? It looks like a fierce battle, but you don't see any Reaper getting blown away. And of course, as I already said, at the end if you wait too long the Reapers destroy the Crucible. The implication of all that is that the Reapers are literally mopping up at the end.

Lastly, consider this: if Harbinger and "several other Sovereign-class Reapers" are worried about the fleet, why would they leave the battle to stop Hammer? They wouldn't. They left because they were winning in space, and the battle at the Crucible when Shepard is choosing backs that up.

So really, believe the Codex or believe what you see in the cutscenes, there's literally nothing in the game that suggests the Reapers can be beaten conventionally. A Reaper, yes. The Reapers, no. \\

EDIT:

I'd just like to add one more point, namely that you can't really argue that the Reapers have been designed to "just powerful enough" by Bioware to require the deus ex machina to be introduced as if that's some sort of cheap copout taken by the designers. The Reapers designed the technology the rest of the universe uses (Mass Effect fields). They are tens of millions of years old. 

To believe that one cycle worth of technology that's not in any way unique from the other five hundred cycles the Reapers wiped out previous is actually going to be capable of taking them down is just wishful thinking. 

Modifié par Tocquevillain, 15 avril 2012 - 09:45 .

[AlanC9]

Tocquevillain wrote...
Lastly, consider this: if Harbinger and "several other Sovereign-class Reapers" are worried about the fleet, why would they leave the battle to stop Hammer? They wouldn't. They left because they were winning in space, and the battle at the Crucible when Shepard is choosing backs that up. 

Yeah. It's pretty obviously similar to the moment in LotR when Sauron realizes that he's been looking at the wrong enemies the whole time.

[EHondaMashButton]

Tocquevillain wrote...

Pretty convincing I must say. I'll take writer > cutscene guy any day.  They were behind the skittles flavored endings remember?

Also I have to wonder WTF the normandy was doing all those times when Shep could've desperately used some air support, if in-game cinematics are to be trusted, and the Normandy can scoot around the planet's surface like in the intro.

Coulda used your help on horizon joker!  Or Thessia... or Tuchanka... or all those geth encounters...

Modifié par EHondaMashButton, 15 avril 2012 - 10:35 .

[DirgeSinger]

I would have loved to see a 4th option to the ending:

-Tell the Deus Ex Machina Starkid to shove off, because you brought the combined might of the galaxy against the Reapers.
-Incur terrible military losses, but win.
-Shepard survives
-The Mass Relays survive
-Everything you've fought for for 3 games survives, but at a terrible cost in life.

That is how the game ended for 4 out of my 5 Shepards. I'm going to play them up until just before the elevator and then just stop playing so I don't have to see the "artistic integrity" BioWare wants to shove down my throat that disrespects their own universe, as well as me as a player.

[Swordfishtrombone]

The in-game discussions, and early game events are more than clear on the fact that the reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. The speed at which they effortlessly took human colonies, then the moon, and then were already on Earth alone should have made that patently obvious.

That the alternative given is no better - "space magic" - doesn't mean that conventionally beating them would somehow be plausible. An ending that, at the last moment reversed that decision making the reapers suddenly and inexplicably defeatable by conventional means would have been no better than the nonsensical fantasy ending we got.

To be consistent with the in-game lore and events, you simply needed some sort of a non-conventional edge the reapers weren't anticipating - but it could have been handled so much better.

What if, for example, the crucible sent a powerful pulse of energy that disrupted some crucial advanced technology utilized by the reapers, effectively, for example, shutting their shields down, or otherwise cripling them? That would have been believable, since something analogous to that exists in the real world: a strong electromagnetic pulse can disrupt electronics.

It would also have been believable that the reapers, being advanced as they were, would utilize some technology that made use of fundamental physics in a way that no races in the galaxy could, so that would explain why the catalyst's pulse only affected the reapers.

This cripling of the reapers would be the edge the allied forces would need, and thus the reapers could be defeated in a tough, but winnable conventional battle.

THAT, for example, would have been an ending that was a proper science fiction ending, and not a fantasy, space magic ending, and would work without contradicting what had been made obvious in the game before: that conventional victory was out of the question.

[Swordfishtrombone]

DirgeSinger wrote...

I would have loved to see a 4th option to the ending:

-Tell the Deus Ex Machina Starkid to shove off, because you brought the combined might of the galaxy against the Reapers.
-Incur terrible military losses, but win.

Now there's the problem right there. The combined forces of the races in the universe, that you gathered, are against the reapers like a house cat would be against a lion.  Simply no chance, whatsoever, of victory. Had they made an ending where victory suddenly turned out to be possible, without explanation, when all the game before it had pointed to the huge power disparity between the forces, that would have been as bad as what we got.

See my post above, for a suggestion as to a non-space magic, non-game-events-contradicting ending, that I would have liked to see.

[Vasarkian]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

DirgeSinger wrote...

I would have loved to see a 4th option to the ending:

-Tell the Deus Ex Machina Starkid to shove off, because you brought the combined might of the galaxy against the Reapers.
-Incur terrible military losses, but win.

Now there's the problem right there. The combined forces of the races in the universe, that you gathered, are against the reapers like a house cat would be against a lion.  Simply no chance, whatsoever, of victory. Had they made an ending where victory suddenly turned out to be possible, without explanation, when all the game before it had pointed to the huge power disparity between the forces, that would have been as bad as what we got.

See my post above, for a suggestion as to a non-space magic, non-game-events-contradicting ending, that I would have liked to see.

The problem is that the game often contradicts itself in either the codex or lore or gameplay by insinuating it is possible to win and then that it's not, or highlighting a high victory or pointing at something of significance.

I have to say that based on the writing and technolology and codex entries... that it is possible.

[Han Shot First]

Excellent post Tocquevillain.

In order for the civilizations of the galaxy to defeat the Reapers conventionally they'd have to possess a massive numerical superiority, and we know for a fact that they don't. As noted, the Citadel fleet dreadnoughts would not be able to overwhelm the Reaper dreadnoughts unless the Reapers possessed as few as maybe 20 to 25. And that isn't even factoring in the Citadel fleet dreadnoughts that have already been lost in battle, as the numbers posted in this thread are pre-invasion.

There is also no reason to think that the Citadel fleets and their allies possess a significant enough advantage in cruisers and frigates to offset the superior numbers of Reaper dreadnoughts.

I'm inclined to side with the Admirals on this one. If Hackett says the Reapers can't be defeated conventionally, and no other high ranking officer, human or otherwise, disagrees with him...then that must be the case. While we (the players) don't know the orders of battle for the two opposing fleets, Hackett does. And he's not confident.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 16 avril 2012 - 12:22 .

[Tocquevillain]

Vasarkian wrote...


The problem is that the game often contradicts itself in either the codex or lore or gameplay by insinuating it is possible to win and then that it's not, or highlighting a high victory or pointing at something of significance.

I have to say that based on the writing and technolology and codex entries... that it is possible.

Can you give more examples like I did from the Codex and game that prove it is possible?

[Aleru]

Well... Bioware created an enemy too powerfull. And gives the galaxy a ****ty goverment that denies their existence and do not prepare for them. Do the maths... perhaps they could have some advantage over them if the galaxy united themselves after sovereign attack and tried to improve their defenses and technology.
But they didnt... so, at the moment of truth, they cannot be beaten conventioally.

[BeefoTheBold]

I don't mind accepting the premise despite evidence to the contrary for storyline reasons.

Simply put, a large part of a sci-fi story involves a certain implied contract between the storyteller and the individual experiencing the story to suspend plausibility and disbelief at certain times. The only caveat is that the lore needs to be established for WHY something that does not make sense is to be accepted.

This is the difference between something like:

"The Reapers cannot be beaten by conventional means" is materially more acceptable than
"I control the Reapers and here are your three color coded doors to walk through".

The first item has been established. It has been hammered home. It is something that has been built in with the history of galactic extinction that has been going on for millions of years. In other words, the writer has fulfilled their part of the contract to make this something that I'm willing to accept even if, when I think about it, the premise has some problems.

The second item is sprung out of nowhere and is not supported by the lore, history, or anything that has been established with how the universe works. It is clumsily implemented and rushed and requires TOO BIG a leap of acceptance on behalf of the individual.

In the second item, the writer breaks the implied contract. The first item is something that I'm okay with nodding in agreement with in order to have a good story.

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 16 avril 2012 - 05:46 .

[JamesFaith]

Han Shot First wrote...

Excellent post Tocquevillain.

In order for the civilizations of the galaxy to defeat the Reapers conventionally they'd have to possess a massive numerical superiority, and we know for a fact that they don't. As noted, the Citadel fleet dreadnoughts would not be able to overwhelm the Reaper dreadnoughts unless the Reapers possessed as few as maybe 20 to 25. And that isn't even factoring in the Citadel fleet dreadnoughts that have already been lost in battle, as the numbers posted in this thread are pre-invasion.

Also if I remember it correct, Reapers have weapons with longer range of fire and better targetting system (from Codex). That mean that part of these dreadnoughts would be destroy before they fire single shot. And it was said in Codex about Capital ships, that capital ships targeting primary enemy dreadnoughts.

[AlanC9]

Sure, the ending is sprung out of nowhere. However, note that the solution being pushed throughout ME3 is always to use an unimaginably advanced alien device whose powers and function aren't understood by anyone, even the Protheans. (Unless you figure TIM understood the device, which is conceivable)

Bioware did set up that something strange was going to happen if you ever got to use the device.

[AlanC9]

JamesFaith wrote...
Also if I remember it correct, Reapers have weapons with longer range of fire and better targetting system (from Codex). That mean that part of these dreadnoughts would be destroy before they fire single shot. And it was said in Codex about Capital ships, that capital ships targeting primary enemy dreadnoughts.

You remember right. From the Codex entry on the Battle of Palaven:

Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, and their concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships.The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes of turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat.