67 réponses à ce sujet

[GunMoth]

LolaLei wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Oh man I would have loved that too. Even in DA2 with the tavern at night by the docks. But Orlais better be spectacular. Especially after Leliana's upsell of the culture there. How everything is bright / vibrant and its warm so you don't have to wear clunky things. A lot of crazy fashion (facepaint, hairstyles, strappy boots) / chants being sung at all times from the grand--chantry--cathedral thing. But a lot of assassins and espionage. I hope its a colorful / beautiful game.

Assuming, you know, its Orlais. But I think "somewhere more French" is kind of a huge hint.

Did you play the MotA dlc? That was very pretty and a nice change from the dull browns of Kirkwall. I suspect the rich parts of Orlais will be like that but on a much larger, more impressive scale with a different art style. Plus I want an Orlesian Masquerade Ball and/or some sort of street festival (like Mardi Gras but in keeping with the games theme.)

I actually havent yet. I plan on doing so on my current playthrough! Ive seen some screens and heard mixed things. Kind of curious now.

[LolaLei]

I'm not sure that there will be a camping area this time round, I just got the impression that they used the expression "camp fire chats" to describe the type of banter you could have in DA:O whilst you were in camp. I'm hoping in DA3 those types of chats will happen in various different areas, especially if we end up travelling around Thedas. I'd like it if the companions moved around too so that sometimes you'd find them hanging out in one of the other companions areas instead of their own (like in ME3.)

I'm also hoping the romance/sex scenes don't all take place in one area/room. I don't mean that in a pervy explicit way. Just that, in DA2 every romance scene took place in the bedroom... You would have thought with a whole house to "play" in Hawke would have made the most of it. See, I could understand a character like Merrill having sex in the comfort and safety of the bedroom because she was naive and Hawke would want her to feel at ease, but someone like Isabela would have just gone for it right where they stood, not let Hawke carry her to the bedroom. I also felt like the characters class abilities go to waste in Bioware games... I mean, if my character is a Mage or Biotic why don't their powers come into play during those scenes? I would have liked to see Hawke's magic flaring during sex or have him use it to pull his LI close, OR my rogue use his murder knife to rip open his LI's clothes. Just little things like that to make those romance scenes more personal to the character and player.

Y'know, the more I think about it, the more I feel like DA2 was just the interlude/set up for DA3, like you suggested earlier. It would certainly make sense. Maybe they wanted to rush DA2 out of the door so they could get to work on DA3 quicker?

Modifié par LolaLei, 15 avril 2012 - 03:14 .

[LolaLei]

GunMoth wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Oh man I would have loved that too. Even in DA2 with the tavern at night by the docks. But Orlais better be spectacular. Especially after Leliana's upsell of the culture there. How everything is bright / vibrant and its warm so you don't have to wear clunky things. A lot of crazy fashion (facepaint, hairstyles, strappy boots) / chants being sung at all times from the grand--chantry--cathedral thing. But a lot of assassins and espionage. I hope its a colorful / beautiful game.

Assuming, you know, its Orlais. But I think "somewhere more French" is kind of a huge hint.

Did you play the MotA dlc? That was very pretty and a nice change from the dull browns of Kirkwall. I suspect the rich parts of Orlais will be like that but on a much larger, more impressive scale with a different art style. Plus I want an Orlesian Masquerade Ball and/or some sort of street festival (like Mardi Gras but in keeping with the games theme.)

I actually havent yet. I plan on doing so on my current playthrough! Ive seen some screens and heard mixed things. Kind of curious now.

If you play as male Hawke, pick all the sarcastic/funny replies once you get to the garden party, it's hilarious!

[GunMoth]

LolaLei wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Oh man I would have loved that too. Even in DA2 with the tavern at night by the docks. But Orlais better be spectacular. Especially after Leliana's upsell of the culture there. How everything is bright / vibrant and its warm so you don't have to wear clunky things. A lot of crazy fashion (facepaint, hairstyles, strappy boots) / chants being sung at all times from the grand--chantry--cathedral thing. But a lot of assassins and espionage. I hope its a colorful / beautiful game.

Assuming, you know, its Orlais. But I think "somewhere more French" is kind of a huge hint.

Did you play the MotA dlc? That was very pretty and a nice change from the dull browns of Kirkwall. I suspect the rich parts of Orlais will be like that but on a much larger, more impressive scale with a different art style. Plus I want an Orlesian Masquerade Ball and/or some sort of street festival (like Mardi Gras but in keeping with the games theme.)

I actually havent yet. I plan on doing so on my current playthrough! Ive seen some screens and heard mixed things. Kind of curious now.

If you play as male Hawke, pick all the sarcastic/funny replies once you get to the garden party, it's hilarious!

:C I don't have a male Hawke yet unfortunately. I really should -- same with Mass effect. But a part of me gets lazy. If I dont get around to it I may have to lookup youtube stuff. Now I'm all excited though. I just looked up screens and read some quick reviews. 

[Lesbian Wood Elf]

As for race, all they'd have to do is make you silent like in Dragon Age: Origins. I don't see where the technical strain is in that.

[Silva2005]

My 2c, apologies for the wall of text. I loved both games, despite there being a few things i'd like to see improved or re-implemented.

1. Dialog and Voice Acting
Conflict: How could Bioware maintain a cinematic feel to make players/casual players feel more involved with the narrative while also giving players who want more of an immersive/traditional role playing game experience the feeling of player agency / give the game an immersive quality? 

- please return to the silent protagonist. A lot of what my female Hawke said in DA2 never quite sounded right and broke immersion
- go back to the conversation prompts of Origins, the prompts in DA2 were misleading compared to what your character actually said
- define conversation/plot progressers vs investigation better in the UI. DA2 did this better than Origins but the investigation options often felt like they broke into the conversation instead of flowing as part of it. In both games i felt like i needed to reload quite a few times because i wanted more background information on a person or situation and had picked an option that meant i could not return to ask more questions
- please please please bring back the optional companion interaction from Origins but improve it so you can seek your companions opinions on decisions and what is happening with the story as well as providing the 'getting to know you better' options. Also add more so you dont run out of things to talk about halfway through the game
- return to the love interest relationship build up from Origins instead of having prompts in DA2 for inappropriate flirtatious comments that break conversations and sound awful. The relationship scenes have been very powerful and immersive in the games so far but in DA2 especially the relationship stops being active once you 'hook up' and you become like a married couple that doesnt talk anymore. Would like to see it progress slowly, become ongoing and actually mean something more to the story and your other companions
- please add an auto-save after big boss fights that lead into conversation, especially since a lot of these are plot movers. They did this a bit DA2 but only on certain parts of the game so if you needed to reload for whatever reason you needed to do the whole fight scene again
- keep the companion quest format from DA2, these were done really well and either meant something to the story or enhanced the game. Would like to see more of them in DA3

2. Return of Race / Origins
Conflict: How could Bioware give us the ability to have an origin / background / race while also not putting a strain on any technical / dialog limitations? OR would you rather we be given one choice (Hawke or someone else)? 

- personally i didn't like being forced to play a predefined character in DA2 though i do realise it was required since the story itself was very character specific.
- I missed the opportunity to define my own character and where they came from. It took a lot longer for me to care about my character in DA2 than in Origins because the starter stories were so immersive, especially the female city elf questline.

3. Difficulty and Strategy
Conflict: How could Bioware give the audience a feeling of responsive / fluid combat while also developing a truly in depth combat engine for players who want something challenging and engaging?

- combination of both games, Origins had a lot of tactical fights that were fun and challenging which the second game was missing but i liked the upgrade to combat graphics in DA2 and the removal of friendly fire
- companions in DA2 often ignored your commands in battle
- waves of adds mechanic was overused in DA2, although in some situations they did make combat feel very dynamic and fights more epic

4. Artistic Direction
Conflict: How can we give distinguishable "personalities" to the characters cosmetics while also allowing us to customize them? Would you be willing to sacrifice graphics for something else? How did you feel about the art change in DA 2 and DA: Origins? What is the most visually appealing fantasy game to you? What defines a "dark fantasy?"

- allow us to equip new armour again on our companions. It is frustrating when you pick up an awesome piece that becomes vendor trash because your PC is not the right class to use it
- like the suggested changes that aims to find a balance between keeping a companions unique identity but allowing some change
- thankyou for adding the option to turn off the helmet graphic in DA2, i had to use a mod for it in Origins because the helmet graphics were a bit ordinary
- Regarding graphics in general, Origins was a beautiiful game to look at vs the more 'console' appearance of DA2 but i ended up having to play Origins with everything turned down because it gave my PC a heart attack. So somewhere in the middle would be preferred. Certain maps in Origins also caused almost gamebreaking crashes especially Flemeth's Hut after the battle at Ostegar and the transition from Denerim to the camp when a companion wanted to speak to you. Had hardly any crashes in DA2.

5. Player Agency
Conflict: Do you guys want player agency that spans over the course of many games? Or would you rather have a game that carries over a few things but has a LOT of important choices that effect your immediate gameplay in that installment? For example: Witcher 1 and Witcher 2 have very few things that carry over, but a lot of your choices are very "grey" in terms of morality and require very careful thought as many of them can ultimately screw you over or have a HUGE impact on your game. Just not on a sequel etc. OR would you guys like something more like Mass Effect where you have to work to establish the trust of certain races / societies over the course of several games?

- carrying over the world you have created from one game to the next really adds an epic quality that i have enjoyed in both games so far. It makes the game feel more like a sequel than just another story set in the same world. It also helps make a gaming world come to life more like it would in a series of fantasy books
- playing the one protagonist who continues their story through multiple games would have been my personal preference as i became pretty attached to my Warden from Origins. There were also some pretty big world changing decisions made in Origins and Awakening that i would have loved to see the consequences of in DA2 and hopefully will in DA3.
- please give us the option to carry over one or both of our heroes in the 3rd game as well as a 'start fresh' option. The idea that these people change the world and just disappear is disappointing and the way DA2 ended has set huge potential for an epic third game.
- ditch the random cameo appearances of old companions and allow them to be a force in the world or part of your party if the story or situation dictates. I'm still boggling on the relevence of the Alistair cameo in DA2 and was really disappointed this didnt develop into part of the story later in the game. The addition of the Zevran questline and Anders as a companion and story maker in DA2 was a good start

6. Character Development / Romances
Conflict: Did you enjoy DA: Origins characters better or DA: 2's characters? Why? What would you do to add more depth to romances / character development? What made certain characters stand out to you? How could Bioware make something that isnt an "ancient evil" feel more compelling? 

- a lot of my thoughts are covered further up re relationship functions and companion interaction
- for me, stand out characters were Morrigan, Alistair, Wynne, Anders and Nathaniel from Origins and Awakening. Aveline, Fenris and Anders again for the second game.
- Alistair and Morrigan were integral parts of the story in Origins who you got to know and love over a period of time which made them stand out instead of just being another companion. Same with Aveline and Anders in the second game though the changes to the Anders character could have occured more fluidly in DA2. Fenris had an incredibly compelling background and companion story that made him a standout without needing to be an integral part of the overall story

7. ANCIENT EVIL
Conflict: How can Bioware successfully break free of the "ancient evil" type narrative device? How could the issues of DA2 been more successfull? Do we need an ancient evil?

- The history of the DA world is defined by ancient evil and wars and conquest so personally i dont feel they need to move away from this as a narrative. The conflicts during and the ending of DA2 has set the scene for some serious world changing events, plus if they choose to add in some of the potentially unresolved ancient evil based story from Origins there is good potential for a balance between the two. What i would like to see is a proper flow on to the third game from the stories created in the first two so there is continuity
- please dont use the 'three years later" segments again as a way of progressing the story. It really breaks your connection with the events of the world. The events of Origins took place over the course of a year which made for a much more immersive story

Modifié par Silva2005, 15 avril 2012 - 04:08 .

[GunMoth]

Lesbian Wood Elf wrote...

As for race, all they'd have to do is make you silent like in Dragon Age: Origins. I don't see where the technical strain is in that.

The strain (like I mentioned in the OP) is that Bioware wants to make the game easier for casual audiences to play. A voice actor makes the narrative experience easier to follow than a silent protagonist. So this thread is dedicated to finding creative answers to cater to both parties. 

[GunMoth]

Ooo thank you Silva! And I agree about female Hawke's voice acting sounding kind of odd. Especially the sarcastic remarks. It feels like she's telling an awkward joke that only she would think is funny and nobody laughs. D: She just sits there with a dumb grin on her face.

Silent protagonists are good in my book. I'm kind of curious to see how many responses this thread gets that is in favor of a protagonist voice actor. :C

Not sure I agree about using the same character over again. I want to see time pass between games to show societal/political changes that occur with certain choices I've made. That was the one thing that bummed me out about Shepard. I wanted to see what society would have been like without the genophage. Or if the rachni would ever be accepted into the galactic community. I'll just have to sit and wonder. :'C

[Silva2005]

GunMoth wrote...

Not sure I agree about using the same character over again. I want to see time pass between games to show societal/political changes that occur with certain choices I've made. That was the one thing that bummed me out about Shepard. I wanted to see what society would have been like without the genophage. Or if the rachni would ever be accepted into the galactic community. I'll just have to sit and wonder. :'C

This is true, especially if they want to continue the templar vs mage conflict. Would be great to see what kind of mess the world ends up in before the next game starts. I like the idea of an optional hero carryover or fresh start option since it would add an extra dynamic and a lot of potential replay value. From a game design perspective though it would probably be a nightmare for the developers so not likely to happen, but i'll continue to dream

[GunMoth]

Silva2005 wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Not sure I agree about using the same character over again. I want to see time pass between games to show societal/political changes that occur with certain choices I've made. That was the one thing that bummed me out about Shepard. I wanted to see what society would have been like without the genophage. Or if the rachni would ever be accepted into the galactic community. I'll just have to sit and wonder. :'C

This is true, especially if they want to continue the templar vs mage conflict. Would be great to see what kind of mess the world ends up in before the next game starts. I like the idea of an optional hero carryover or fresh start option since it would add an extra dynamic and a lot of potential replay value. From a game design perspective though it would probably be a nightmare for the developers so not likely to happen, but i'll continue to dream

Yeah. Gosh I cant even imagine what sort of nightmare carrying your face over from DA:O to DA2 would have caused. Especially if they kept elves as playable races. Oh gooood. 

I did like a lot of the carry overs from mass effect for sure. Especially relationships / friendships. Some tear jerking stuff that could only happen with a game like that. 

[Arppis]

For combat, I kinda wish I had more direct control over my character. I simply dislike the combat system in DA games. But, I can deal if it isn't as fun again, I'll just play it on casual/normal and play for the plot...

For artistic direction and graphics, 2nd game had the right idea, but they need to ditch the overly heavy full platemails and HUGE two handers that look cumbersome.

Well, for voice acting, they could go for same voice actor for all races. They don't have to have different origins for them all. But at the same time... I wish there was some way to play the origin story. Maybe there is just one? Or it all takes place in one village?

I wish the character dialogue would again be like in Origins, because I can talk with them any time I want and there was simply more stuff for them to say. It was pretty good. Also the rivaly/friendship system was BRILLIANT, Origins really botched up at approves/dissaproves. I felt like I was searching for answer the character wants to hear, not RPing properly because of it.

And we don't need ancient evil. I don't infact want one. But I bet many people do, which is kinda boring. They just need to make the main villains more "morally grey", but still someone who you want to fight, who stands between you and your goal. Ancient evil for sake of evil-character just doesn't do it for me.

OHHHH, and customizable armor would be AWESOME.

Modifié par Arppis, 15 avril 2012 - 06:54 .

[Ponendus]

Ok, I'll play.

QUESTIONS: 
1. Dialog and Voice Acting
I think that including more dialogue options (aside from simple 'nice' and 'assertive'), losing the icons that take the guesswork and interpretation away, coupled with the absolutely essential (in my opinion) mechanic of somehow showing the full line of dialogue ahead of selecting it will mostly gain a compromise. I would like the option to have a non-voiced protagonist, but this has basically been confirmed as not happening, so my compromise would be to please at least let us see the full line somehow.

Another thing to consider here is the 'Action/RPG/Normal' modes ME3 had. I thought they worked fine to keep everyone happy. I chose my path and the other options existence didn't affect me.

2. Return of Race / Origins
This is difficult. If the story absolutely demands that only one race can exist for the protagonist, then I understand the decision. I can't really think of any circumstances that would happen though. I think the point is that multiple races does cause technical complexities, but why are we resisting that? It's an RPG, complexities in storytelling are supposed to be there, and they are something that BioWare usually handles very well. They are experts at it. If they take that away they are running away from what makes them so great.

I do also acknowledge that there is a vast majority of players that play humans, and they have statistical data to back that up. Nonetheless, variety is extremely important, and choices and options are what makes a great game, so they need to work this one out carefully.

3. Difficulty and Strategy
Well. With this one I think it actually needs to borrow some mechanics from DA2. The 'response' time for actions in DA2 was fine, if anything a little too fast for my taste, but fine. Pause and play simply must remain in my opinion - it is a hallmark of the series and would be extremely disappointing to lose. RNG should have some part to play (not sure about to what extent, but it lends some variety and randomness and unpredictability, which is what the real world is like, so translates well to roleplaying). I think very interesting 'boss' mechanics will help, such as the Corypheus encounter in Legacy, which I for one thought was a great deal of fun. The final encounter in MotA is also a good example of this.

All of this should keep most people happy except perhaps for the hardcore strategists. In my opinion the solution to that is to include a combat log. Why this doesn't happen already i'm not sure, but it really is very important for people who care about strategy, and I don't know how difficult it is to implement.

Again the 'Action/RPG/Normal' mode function from ME3 will also help keep people happy here.

4. Artistic Direction

I think the concept art style (in both scenery and armour) that they showed at PAX is the right direction. I really like their plan for armour customisation too, and the art looks great. I am interested to see their plans for how this will work for the player character, I posted an idea I had about this here and would love some thoughts on it.

In general, I thought the DA2 art was extremely bland, but since hearing Mike's comments about it being unique to the Free Marches, I feel better about it. Let it be dreary for DA2, doesn't bother me any more.

In terms of personal preference, I find that difficult to answer. I genuinely preferred DAO's darkness, but I also like bright fantasy too (the slightly cartoony and colourful like Kingdoms of Amalur - which I am enjoying immensely). I do not like setting that resemble earth too much (like Elder Scrolls games). I like it to be a unique world.

5. Player Agency
No, I have desire to have my individual choices carry over from game to game. The complexities it creates end up being more limiting than helpful. In the end, they just tend to be non-meaningful 'nods' anyway rather than world changing. Meaningful choices during the game are important, but from game to game mean very little to me. This is also why I completely support a new protagonist for each instalment.

6. Character Development / Romances
I generally enjoyed DAO's companions better. I thought the interactions in something like the player camp were very important. I think this compromise has already been reached though. The PAX panel described a situation that works perfectly for me. So I support that.

I think it is important to add some characters that are difficult to get along with and that potentially 'betray' you too. A feeling of 'hurt' is something that hasn't been fully explored yet, and there is much that could be done with that.

7. ANCIENT EVIL
Conflict:
How can Bioware successfully break free of the "ancient evil" type
narrative device? How could the issues of DA2 been more successfull? Do
we need an ancient evil?

Have no problem with ancient evil. I thought the 'big boss' at the end of DAO was far more compelling than the complete absence of such in DA2. You have to strive for something, struggle for some reason, want to improve, want to fight, the stakes need to be high. The problem with the core story of DA2, is that it took a great deal of time to even work out what we were striving for?

Fun topic OP, thanks.

Modifié par Ponendus, 15 avril 2012 - 07:39 .

[Maria Caliban]

GunMoth wrote...

Here is a challenge: Try to make things marketable / accessable / monetize-able while also making it YOUR ideal Dragon Age 3. OR find examples of games that have been successful in the past while also maintaining their appeal to a niche demographic (Dark Souls / Demons Souls being two)

My ideal game looks nothing like the Dragon Age series.

That said, I've never had to compromise for a BioWare game, and I doubt I'll need to in the future. Compromises are for people whose tastes and expectations are too narrow.

[Mr Fixit]

Maria Caliban wrote...

That said, I've never had to compromise for a BioWare game, and I doubt I'll need to in the future. Compromises are for people whose tastes and expectations are too narrow.

Well said.

[beermat77]

What i'd like to hear from the devs would be what they're working on next.
Prehaps a thread asking for ideas on weapon or companions for example before they start working on them.
Free ideas for the devs and the community would feel more included in the design process.
Harder for people to complain about something they had a hand in.

[G00N3R7883]

1. Dialog and Voice Acting
Having a voiced player character and a dialogue wheel with paraphrasing gives the cinematic feel that Bioware are looking for. But this gives problems for some players with immersion, when their character says something they weren't expecting.

The solution, and I've posted at length about this in many other threads, is to make paraphrasing better. Bioware just need to do a better job of making the short version of the line that we select, reflect the longer version that our character will actually say out loud. There were many occasions in DA2 where it wasn't actually paraphrasing, it was two completely unrelated lines with different words and different meanings.

2. Return of Race / Origins
The obvious problem here is going to be financial. If we have the opportunity to be male or female, human, dwarf or elf, you'd expect Bioware would need to hire 6 different voice actors. Maybe they could hire lesser known actors, but then that could lead to problems with quality.

Or maybe it would be an acceptable compromise for the fans that we still only have 1 male and 1 female VA? A male human would sound the same as a male dwarf and elf? I personally would accept that if it meant we get the option to choose race. (and I could allow myself to believe that, for example, an Orlesian dwarf/elf would have a similar French accent as a human. I mean I already accept dwarves that don't sound scottish )

3. Difficulty and Strategy
I don't really have any ideas about this one. The combat styles in DA:O and DA2 were simply so different that I can't imagine a compromise. I preferred DA:O combat by far. Getting rid of the waves would be a good start though. The ability to resolve quests without resorting to combat every. single. time. would also be nice.

4. Artistic Direction
I like Bioware's recent suggestion of how one piece of armour would have the same stats but look different when equipped on different companions. The stats bit is important to me. I don't just want to play dress up with my companions, I want to be able to give them better gear to help them survive a fight.

5. Player Agency
If Bioware can make the choices from game to game work, then obviously that would be fantastic. But so far all we've seen is problems with save importing bugs, and an inability to really make the choices work from a story point of view. At the same time, I really liked what CDP did with Witcher 2. So I wouldn't have a problem if DA3 abandoned game to game choices, but had ALOT of choices within the game. Game to game choices in DA are less important to me than they were in ME, because we have a different character, instead of the same character for every game.

6. Character Development / Romances
I have no suggestions here because I've enjoyed companions in every Bioware game, they do companions far better than anyone else, so I just want them to keep doing what they're doing.

7. ANCIENT EVIL
The story doesn't have to be an ancient evil, but it does need more scope. I really liked Loghain's scheming in DA:O. And I liked what the Illusive Man was doing in ME3. The Witcher 1 and 2's story was fantastic as well. A war between nations, or the threat of a war, can feel epic. Orlais vs Ferelden. Or a proper war with the Qunari (rather than one fight and then its all over). Or you can look at factions, obviously DA3 could be Templars vs Mages. But the key part is to make these events happen over a large area, rather than just one little city (that doesn't change over 7 years).

[SeanMurphy2]

1. Dialog and Voice Acting 

My problem is with the repetitive structure of the dialogue.  Dialogue in Origins was fantastic. It felt like natural conversation. It moved away from previous Bioware games.

I don't understand wanting to use "diplomatic, witty, aggressive" structure through the whole game.  In Origins I read through each response to decide what I wanted to say to the other person. DA2 felt like mindlessly pressing one of three tone buttons. I didn't care at all about the dialogue.


2 Return of Race/Origins

Full origin stories are too resource intensive. But I think people would prefer to be able to pick their own race and background and just use the same voice.  Thedas is a big diverse world. So better to let people choose than say "here is this awesome character Hawke we made for you".

Though it is obviously challenging to write up some interesting background/race combinations. And have some reactivity towards each background. (Though this is not a big issue for me personally and I am expecting something more like DA2)


3 Difficulty and Strategy

I can understand you wanting to change the combat to have more appeal to console players. But as a PC player I really missed being able to zoom out to the topdown view.  DA2 felt more like I was controlling one character with less pausiing.  I  loved being able to pause, zoom out and look at the whole battlefield. And even when exploring I would zoom in and out to get a different view of the landscape.


4 Artistic Direction

This is subjective but I loved Origin's art style. I remember when I first started the game, I  walked around Cousland castle for over an hour just looking at everything. I loved the world you guys created.

I liked the scale to some of the locations.  Lothering has got outskirts with a highway, farmland, fields and a river. It is not just a tiny urban area.


5 Player Agency

WIth hindsight I did not like the framed narrative structure because it made everything predetermined. I guess the opening was meant to create curiousity about how Hawke becomes champion and changes the world. But it did not hook me. So not a satisfying ending.

The opening scene shows Varric imprisoned in Cassandras castle. For me there would have been more ending satisfaction in getting to that castle, meeting Cassandra and breaking out Varric.

I think time skips can be interesting if there are changes to the city and characters. So it feels different and you can show consequences. But I think you need to commit resources equivalent to rebuilding the city for each time period.


6 Character Development

May think about this later.


7 Ancient Evil

Origins was not just about the Blight. There was your origin background, Loghain, your companions issues, setting out to explore the world and various conflicts going on in Ferelden. So there were other story elements apart from the ancient evil.


Also I actually prefer a major issue like Mage vs Templar to remain in the background to flesh out the world. Rather than lets make Mage vs Templars the main focus of the game. Then next we can do a game about War against the Qunarri, then Elven Rebellion, then war against Tevinter slavers etc.

In Orgins the Mage-Templar issue is dispersed throughout the game like Morrigan, Alistair, Redcliffe, Calenhad.  And it is ongoing, nuanced and affects people in different ways. But DA2 seemed so extreme and caricature.

[eroeru]

GunMoth wrote...

MyAnswers :x


(snip)

I actually agree with most everything you said. It's well written and well explained. Only that I'd like to bring up an idea or two.



1. Dialog and Voice Acting

Have the option to disable character voice!

Bioware's true patent-worthy feat isn't the "brilliant" (ugh) dialogue wheel, nor the "cinematic feel", which deprives of player agency in the most fundamental way. It is the ability to flesh out your own (silent) character - giving it a personality, attitude and governing its intentions. This was the truly complex and fun feature of all past Bioware games (and then ME came... ugh). 

Silent protagonist is important for role-playing reasons for almost half of the crowd - and it would benefit the game also by having another replayable quality - you get a whole different feel for the game if your protag is silent. If it's well done, it will not suffer greatly from "dull silent looks", but be a bit more dynamical (though actually I'm thinking the players for SP don't want "dynamical" so much, so that's hardly an issue).

About the cost - sure there is some - but I don't imagine that having slight changes (or rather omissions) to the dialogue scenes to be so resource-costly. Yet it gives a whole different quality to the game.

And a given is the "shift-key" thing, where the player can see the full lines of text. Everybody loved seeing the full lines in Witcher - it wasn't redundant, AT ALL. Simply "making better" the paraphrases is near impossible, and would definitely retain the gripes the fans had with DA ][.

One of which is that it didn't feel like DA - it rather went blantly into ME. And became much less involving and intelligent in the process - as with the "positions" and even "icons" of the dialogue wheel - which for me spelled out "you're stupid, so we made everything so much more easier". I want a game where I (can) feel I'm smart rather. Or at least LET me use my brain - this IS by definition INVOLVING a player.


2. Return of Race / Origins 

Which brings me to the second gripe I had with the game - Hawke always felt as "the ordinary stupid high-and-mighty human". I would like some diversity to that. The option for silent protag would near eliminate the "stupidness" in large part - but there's still the voice-acted part of the game, and the felt rassism of human superiority.

There are very real limitations to how many intelligent "functioning-lines" can a character give - in DA2 it was 1 (and "investigating options would always be only neutral). I think it should easily be more, but with current design-plans, it's 2 options, max. And that leaves another infinity of personality-types out of the loop for the voiced protag - the shades of aggressive/evil/renegade(ugh) and witty (sarcastic/plain stupid) the most obvious ones. Though I'd much rather we have more interesting areas - like a madman, or an idiot (Arcanum). 

Now the race-choice gives limitations to animations and voice-acting? I understand animations, and that easily requires much work, but it's definitely worth it, even then. But as of voice-acting, I'm fairly confident no-one would have a gripe if all races would be voiced by the same voice (-actor). Slight important-feeling nuances are fun and mandatory - but they won't be so heavy on work.


3. Difficulty and Strategy 

I for one didn't think of anything in ][ as an improvement. That said, combat can be really more dynamic, and retain the strategic depth of Origins' slow-movement pausing-system. The latter remained strategic only because it was easy to differentiate single discrete movements/actions. Thus it became a chess-game in real-time-depth (which is awesome by the way). Now, DA2 eliminated that aspect simply by making the combat so hectic and fast we couldn't grasp a thing.

As for difficulty, the more difficult the better - but it MUST ALWAYS REMAIN FAIR. Massive HP and one-hit-deaths were'nt fair. At all.


4. Artistic Direction 

I loathe the term "dark fantasy", as it seemingly caters for people who unrationally are attached to "darkness" (wooo). It does not say anything. Teens love "dark" things, yet cartoonish/comics' things - so I guess that's the foundation for DA2 - well, your well-established audience doesn't, in large part.

The new pics for armor-presentation were awesome though. Albeit the characters seemed a bit short (like in Blizzard games) - and even if people actually were more short in medieval times, we're not talking about making a game in that time-frame - it's high fantasy we're talking about (which DA:O is in fact). Lots of poetry and a subtle feeling is required to make a game fantastic. As was Origins.

Yet character psychology should remain varied - the main point is to make the game BEAUTIFUL and ELEGANT though.


5. Player Agency 

Player Agency is everything. There is no illusion of choice - there are consequences that are actually vastly different - and that IS choice. DA2 didn't have consequences. DA:O did.

But as to how OP defined it - I would be fine with much larger choices in-one-game, as in The Witcher. Choices to bring to the next game are a nice addition, but nothing deal-breaking (whereas the lack of in-game choices is).


7. ANCIENT EVIL 

Sure, the bad guy should be varied - but we got exactly that in DA:O. There was Loghain.

An old idiotic and one-dimensional woman with a giant sword isn't the way to go.


Anyway, a truly worthy thread we've got here (for people who don't align their expectations to whatever Bioware makes, be it based on philosophy or flashiness).

Modifié par eroeru, 15 avril 2012 - 06:46 .

[Meris]

1 - They don't. Voice acting is a province of cinematic direction which has, for longer than I care to think, implied less content, less freedom and less player agency in CRPGs.

2 - The strain comes not from the choice of race and background, as it has been done in RPGs for longer than BioWare existed, but rather on spending money on a cinematic direction. By not leaving anything to the imagination, BioWare puts a strain on its resources and is forced to cut player agency - as may be the case with race and background selection (as well as actually playing through said background).

3 - The debate isn't between Easy and Hard or Superficial and Deep. Its between RTS and Action gameplay. In Dragon Age 2: no subtitle, BioWare tried to appeal to both at the same time, creating a mediocre experience for both. On the RTS side, it didn't just stagnate where Origins was, but also became worse. On the Action side, it... was pointless.

4 - I am always willing to sacrifice graphics for anything else. I believe RPGs should, first and foremost, seek to ensure player agency. If you want to add cinematic flavour (say, 'iconic' companions) but cannot do so without cutting a big feature of the game, then don't do it. But again, a cinematic focus (and a marketing team) might disagree with me.

Mind you, if BioWare thinks that companion customization was varied enough in DA:O, then I think this 'compromise' between Player Agency and, pff, 'iconic' companions-whose-identity-was-totally-lost-in-every-RPG-ever (nevermind that the likes of Minsc are quoted, not balked at for their looks) is a voice of mediocrity. Stagnation for player agency in favour of a cinematic feature.

5 - In my opinion, the single most important ambition for any RPG designer, followed closely and only by integrating gameplay and story as much as possible. Everything else, compared to player agency, is, in my opinion, low priority simply because choices are what allow you to roleplay a character of your own creation.

Player agency should not be discarded for anything else, but should neither be overdone. How much exactly player agency BioWare can do is up to them, but it should be no less than that.

6 - My only problem with DA 2 is that universal bisexuality made Romance feel like too much of a video-gamey goal - to the point that I came ignore it. 'Your character will bed someone, no matter who'

7 - Ancient Evils aren't bad. And stories that aren't about Ancient Evils aren't innovative, even in RPGs. Even in BioWare RPGs. Not being about Ancient Evils does not excuse any mistake in presentation.

[Pedrak]

Good thread, OP. I like your approach.


1. Dialog and Voice Acting


Compromise: Keep dialogue wheel and voice acting but allow the player (by right-clicking on the answer) to know EXACTLY what the PC is going to say.

2. Return of Race / Origins

You can have both different origins/races/backgrounds and a voiced PC with one male and one female actor. Good casting choice needed, but feasible.


3. Difficulty and Strategy

Get rid of the waves, make friendly fire independent from difficulty, have more enemy variety. Make tactical placement more meaningful, ex. by not resetting the party's position after a combat-triggering dialogue, by allowing enemies to access the area only through doors (=not spawning out of nowhere) or points which can be blocked. Sneaking towards an enemy and backstabbing him before he sees you should be possible.


4. Artistic Direction


Each party member should be allowed to wear any kind of armor/dress, but have an unique and distinctive while wearing that. Ex. Party member A in heavy armor should look different than NPCs in heavy armor (which should all look the same) and also from Party member B in heavy armor.  Not for each different armor, of course, but for each type (ex. Party Member A will look the same in the "Heavy Armor of Doom" and in the "Heavy Armor of Armageddon").

As for the art change, I felt it was kind of "ok but forgettable" in both games. I sure hope they don't steer towards anime, though.
Visually unique is fine (see the Planescape setting), but now the DA world is more or less defined, let's keep visual quirks for a new franchise and settle for a polished version of the classic "medieval fantasy" setting, maybe taking inspirations from real ancient societies/art like the LOTR movies did ex. with the Rohirrim.


5. Player Agency


I love importing saves, but decisions carrying over from one game to another should be fewer (maybe two-three) and have more weight.
Things that should not happen are: A) Killing a character in a game and having him/her pop up in the following (Leliana);
 Taking theorically huge decisions which ultimately doesn't affect the following game (Genophage cure, Rachni).
More "cosmetical" imports (like the race/sex of the protagonist in the previous game) should get a mention. I like the idea of a different protagonist for each game of the DA series.


6. Character Development / Romances


I liked DAO's characters/romances better, but the sequel's were also good. They were not DA2's problem.

7. ANCIENT EVIL


We don't NEED an ancient evil, just something:
1) Bigger in scale and scope than a single guy's social climb in a city;
2) A more focused story with better pacing - the conflict/what's at stake/antagonist(s) should be presented sooner and have a more definite progression. DA2 was too choppy and jumpy from this POV.

Modifié par Pedrak, 15 avril 2012 - 01:57 .

[bEVEsthda]

I don't see much of a challenge. It has already all been done successfully, 'cept 7, which was done unsuccessfully in DA2.
DA:Origin was the "compromise". That is not to say it can't be improved, by small tweaks.

7. And I don't see the need for breaking free from "ancient evil". I regard that only as a pseudo-issue, cultivated by a small clique of players who think such a thing would be so "original" as to be deep/arty/profound/whatever, and then have gone on to convince themselves that is enough to make it a good idea.
My answer would be that ancient evil works better in reality, in 99 cases of 100, for 99 people of 100. Stick to ancient evil (or rather: big evil). There's a good reason everybody else do that.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 15 avril 2012 - 01:47 .

[Uccio]

Seriously people, drop that ME wannabe stuff. This is DA and should stay that way.

[Huntress]

GunMoth wrote...

Ooo thank you Silva! And I agree about female Hawke's voice acting sounding kind of odd. Especially the sarcastic remarks. It feels like she's telling an awkward joke that only she would think is funny and nobody laughs. D: She just sits there with a dumb grin on her face.

Oh they laugh..

http://www.youtube.c...5GfbvfzAk#t=13s


There are alot more, now show me one where the warden laugh at: Alistair joke, Zevra joke, Oghren joke.. well you won't find it, I tell yu what, show me the warden smiling at anyone in the group, I'll settle for that.

[Amycus89]

 
1. Dialog and Voice Acting
I prefer a silent protagonist, but I certainly don't mind a voiced one - that is, if its the ONLY difference. The real problem I have with a voiced protagonist in most recent games is that it seems to affect other things than just the voice. Those things are:

A) The game uses paraphrases in your dialogue choices, leading to that your character will often say something completely different than you intended to. This completely disconnects you from your character. Writing out the whole lines, or having it like Deus ex HR, would be prefferable.

Lack of options. In DA2 you had 1 good. 1 sarcastic, and 1 evil option 99% of the time. And usually this lines basically all said the same thing, just in a different tone. It basically feels like you first made one single templet for all answers before writing any of the actual dialogue, and only added them later as an afterthought.

What I think you should do to improve this:
temporarily forget about having a voiced protagonist while still writing the dialogue, and write it like you used to. then put each response in different categories depending on whether they are meant to be good/sarcastic/threatening, and then make voiceovers for them. By doing this you would have situations where you have more than one (for example) sarcastic choice, and no threatening choice.

I would also like stats to play some role in your choices. DA:O did this, although very rarely (for example a dexterity check wheb trying to pull up an acorn from that cared mage, during the quest "nature of the beast". Try to aim for more "stat checks" like that.

By doing that there shouldn't be any risk of feeling like the dialogue has been simplified, or "dumbed down", which was the case in DA2, and the top reason why I'm otherwise against a voiced protagonist.



2. Return of Race / Origins
I would prefer race and origin choices. I wouldn't have any trouble with them all sharing the same voice.

If I had to choose between races/origins and a voiced protagonist, if I can't have both, I would definetely go with races and origins however.



3. Difficulty and Strategy
Simply reduce the amount of AoD spells for all classes, except maybe mages, and make flanking a real part of the strategy again (I havn't played legacy, so I'm not sure how much you improved it there. I have only heard a few comments about it from others).

Also, for the love of the maker, add a TOGGLE for friendly fire in the options section. If I want to have friendly fire on easy, then please let me have that.



4. Artistic Direction
I definetely prefer the artstyle in DA:O. Apart from the qunari, I actually prefer the graphics in DA:O completely (have you seen some of the moded character morphs for DA:O? Beats any witcher 2 character any day). 

I don't think that a "cartoony" style like in DA2 suits a "dark fantasy RPG", and the fact that everything looked far too clean isn't helping. Especially the character faces, where everyone except deafult Hawke, Fenris and the qunari looked like they had pure, shiny plastic as their skin.



5. Player Agency 
I prefer real choices that will affect the current game (main reason I didn't like ME2). Even if the final choice in DA2 does turn out to have some kind of big impact on DA3, it won't change my feelings about the feeling of control (or  lack of it) in DA2.



6. Character Development / Romances 
The companions in DA2 didn't seem to have any depth at all. All your first impressions for them stayed true for the whole game. 

The DA:O companions on the other hand, took some time to truly understand. Even the "simplest" of them, like Oghren, proved to be a bit more complex than one intitially though by bringing him to the fade, or the sacred ashes quest.

Also, PLEASE let us speak with our companions whenever we want, instead of just when they have a questmarker above their heads. That just reduced them to "random questgiver number 2"



7. ANCIENT EVIL
Let's be honest. DA:O had a terrible cliche storyline. Yet, it worked because of the way it was told and presented, and it did an extremely good job at making you feel immersed with your own character.

DA2 might not have felt as "epic" as its predecessor, or a very exciting one with a clear goal. That wasn't the reason so many disliked it if you ask me though. It was because it went for a personal, emotional story (which by itself is ok. In fact, thats the kind of stories I prefer), but failed to make it personal, nor emotional. There were several reasons for this, like no real connection to the characters, and none of your choices matter, but the largest problem WAS THE TIMESKIPS. I actually already wrote about this in the thread below, and how DA2 SHOULD have handled it.
http://social.biowar.../index/11326689 

Modifié par Amycus89, 15 avril 2012 - 06:05 .

[Pasquale1234]

GunMoth wrote...

1. Dialog and Voice Acting
Conflict: How could Bioware maintain a cinematic feel to make players/casual players feel more involved with the narrative while also giving players who want more of an immersive/traditional role playing game experience the feeling of player agency / give the game an immersive quality?

Frankly, I suspect that cinematic presentation and player agency are, if not mutually exclusive, mutually elusive because achieving one tends to detract from the other.  A cinematic presentation has to assume a lot about a character's motivations and behaviors, and also takes control of pacing and other aspects to tell a specific story in a specific way, thus reducing player agency and the sense that the player is co-creating the story via role-play.  The devs speak of greater player agency yet they seem to also be planning to stick with the overall cinematic direction.  I honestly don't know how they can achieve both.

To directly address the topic, I think that providing full text for dialogue choices would help immensely, and providing a toggle to turn off the VA and cinematics would be better yet. Even so, since dialogue is typically written differently for VA'd characters than non-VA'd characters, the experience may not be very satisfying, particularly when you consider the addition (or lack) of auto-dialogue.

2. Return of Race / Origins
Conflict: How could Bioware give us the ability to have an origin / background / race while also not putting a strain on any technical / dialog limitations? OR would you rather we be given one choice (Hawke or someone else)? 

I think the answer to the first part of your question is: they can't. Allowing race customization requires a different set of animations and cinematics, not to mention more body/armor models, and that is without any additional race-based dialogue or other game content.  Take away the protag voicing and reduce the cinematics, and it becomes much less resource-intensive and do-able.  As for the second part of the question, I prefer creating my own character.

3. Difficulty and Strategy
Conflict: How could Bioware give the audience a feeling of responsive / fluid combat while also developing a truly in depth combat engine for players who want something challenging and engaging?

People seem to have different definitions of "responsive".  Because DA2's animations were front-loaded, I found it much less responsive than DAO, as I could not interrupt what a character was doing until the animation was complete.  I would love to see a combat speed slider, because I enjoy being able to control all 4 party members in real-time (without pausing), and DA2's combat was too fast for that.  I would like to see more thoughtful encounter designs, stealth, traps, choke points, and the like.  Being able to turn friendly fire on or off for any difficulty level along with a battle log would also be very welcome additions.

4. Artistic Direction
Conflict: How can we give distinguishable "personalities" to the characters cosmetics while also allowing us to customize them? Would you be willing to sacrifice graphics for something else? How did you feel about the art change in DA 2 and DA: Origins? What is the most visually appealing fantasy game to you? What defines a "dark fantasy?"

I have suggested (multiple times) that companions be given basic, iconic, definitive outfits that will level up throughout the game, but also be fully customizable by players who value customization.  I care much more for player agency with customization than unique body models for companions (partly because they invite stereotyping).  I'm not especially interested in graphics.  I vastly preferred the look of DAO - it seemed dark, gritty, and realistic with a more muted palette and enough variety that I did not grow tired of it after hundreds of hours of play.  I still don't understand why they re-designed darkspawn, elves, or qunari in DA2, as it felt like they broke with the identity that had been established by DAO.  Overall, DA2 seemed to have higher contrast, more dramatic lighting, was harsher and cleaner than its predecessor - which may be why so many people felt that it looked more cartoonish.

5. Player Agency
Conflict: Do you guys want player agency that spans over the course of many games? Or would you rather have a game that carries over a few things but has a LOT of important choices that effect your immediate gameplay in that installment? For example: Witcher 1 and Witcher 2 have very few things that carry over, but a lot of your choices are very "grey" in terms of morality and require very careful thought as many of them can ultimately screw you over or have a HUGE impact on your game. Just not on a sequel etc. OR would you guys like something more like Mass Effect where you have to work to establish the trust of certain races / societies over the course of several games?

The series of questions you present under this topic is very interesting, because it points out the differences in how we view player agency.  I tend to see it on a much more micro level, e.g., the ability to role-play a character that feels cohesive to me, having dw or archer warriors, having different classes fulfill different combat roles, customizing companion armors, etc.  These are the things that have the greatest direct impact on my gameplay experience.

I'm not nearly as bothered about them canonizing / ret-conning past decisions made by past protags - maybe this is because I tend to do multiple play-throughs and make different choices.  I think it would be much more important to me if I were playing the same protag through multiple games ala ME.

All that said, I'm okay with having the same ending regardless of choices, but would like for that ending to mean that my character has accomplished something worthwhile.  The ending of Act 2 served that purpose, the ending of the game - not so much.

6. Character Development / Romances
Conflict: Did you enjoy DA: Origins characters better or DA: 2's characters? Why? What would you do to add more depth to romances / character development? What made certain characters stand out to you? How could Bioware make something that isnt an "ancient evil" feel more compelling? 

I vastly preferred the companion relationships in DAO, but I don't think it was because they were necessarily better characters than DA2's.  I think it was because I was much more invested in my Wardens - I created them, understood them and their motives, and was able to fully role-play them.  Despite multiple attempts, I've not been able to connect with Hawke in such a way, as s/he feels like just another NPC that I direct some of the time.

I also think that having the ability to talk with your companions anytime / anywhere makes the companions and relationships feel much more organic.

I will say that I'm really glad BioWare made the decision to remove gender requirements for LIs, and hope that continues.

7. ANCIENT EVIL
Conflict: How can Bioware successfully break free of the "ancient evil" type narrative device? How could the issues of DA2 been more successfull? Do we need an ancient evil?

I don't think the ancient evil narrative device is a problem in and of itself, but some ways of utilizing it are better than others.  There are quite a few other ways that DA2's story could have been concluded without using it at all.

And I gotta say - very well-designed thread and presentation of issues, GunMoth!  Props to you.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 15 avril 2012 - 05:29 .