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Compromise -- A Challenge for BSN.


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#51
GunMoth

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Huntress wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Ooo thank you Silva! And I agree about female Hawke's voice acting sounding kind of odd. Especially the sarcastic remarks. It feels like she's telling an awkward joke that only she would think is funny and nobody laughs. D: She just sits there with a dumb grin on her face.


Oh they laugh..

http://www.youtube.c...5GfbvfzAk#t=13s


There are alot more, now show me one where the warden laugh at: Alistair joke, Zevra joke, Oghren joke.. well you won't find it, I tell yu what, show me the warden smiling at anyone in the group, I'll settle for that.


I didnt mean this literally. I said "it feels like" (a metaphor). The dialog has nice touches -- but Im talking about the voice actress in question and how it FEELS awkward. 

#52
GunMoth

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Maria Caliban wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Here is a challenge: Try to make things marketable / accessable / monetize-able while also making it YOUR ideal Dragon Age 3. OR find examples of games that have been successful in the past while also maintaining their appeal to a niche demographic (Dark Souls / Demons Souls being two)


My ideal game looks nothing like the Dragon Age series.

That said, I've never had to compromise for a BioWare game, and I doubt I'll need to in the future. Compromises are for people whose tastes and expectations are too narrow.


Then what would your ideal DA look like without compromises?

#53
GunMoth

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So much to read. *-* Whooaa. Give me a moment.

#54
Cultist

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1. Dialog and Voice Acting
Remove Voiced protagonist - problem solved.

2. Return of Race / Origins
Bring Origins and race option back, spend more time on game development - problem solved.

3. Difficulty and Strategy
Remove arcadeness from combat, revert to Origins and tweak it to be more fluid - problem solved.

4. Artistic Direction
DA2 proved that even dark fantasy could be turned into ridiculous circus of acrobatic knights and teleportations. and as for art in Dragon Age 2, one word -  darkspawn.

5. Player Agency
Make new character and sever all ties to Dragon Age 2 so no negative followed into new product - problem solved.

6. Character Development / Romances
DA2 were grey clones, all-bisexual all-approving. In Origins characters had their beliefs and would leave or even turn on you depending on your actions. DA2 - as long as you get 100 or either rivalry or friendship - no one will leave you, no one will oppose you. They are template clones in different clothes. Develop different personalities, instead of mannequins - problem solved.

7. ANCIENT EVIL
Ancient evil works quite fine. A matter of writing.

Modifié par Cultist, 15 avril 2012 - 06:00 .


#55
Maria Caliban

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GunMoth wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Here is a challenge: Try to make things marketable / accessable / monetize-able while also making it YOUR ideal Dragon Age 3. OR find examples of games that have been successful in the past while also maintaining their appeal to a niche demographic (Dark Souls / Demons Souls being two)


My ideal game looks nothing like the Dragon Age series.

That said, I've never had to compromise for a BioWare game, and I doubt I'll need to in the future. Compromises are for people whose tastes and expectations are too narrow.


Then what would your ideal DA look like without compromises?

My ideal RPG would have a pre-defined protagonist, no combat or inventory, no party, have a science fiction horror setting (think System Shock), and no classes.

I don't have an ideal Dragon Age.

Metaphor: My favorite food is Greek, but I also like Chinese, Thai, Indian, Italian, Americana, Tex-Mex, German, and French foods. It's not a compromise for me to go to a German restaurant.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 15 avril 2012 - 07:29 .


#56
Pasquale1234

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SeanMurphy2 wrote...

Also I actually prefer a major issue like Mage vs Templar to remain in the background to flesh out the world. Rather than lets make Mage vs Templars the main focus of the game. Then next we can do a game about War against the Qunarri, then Elven Rebellion, then war against Tevinter slavers etc.

In Orgins the Mage-Templar issue is dispersed throughout the game like Morrigan, Alistair, Redcliffe, Calenhad.  And it is ongoing, nuanced and affects people in different ways. But DA2 seemed so extreme and caricature.


It's good to see that I'm not the only person who feels this way.

I "got" the conflict as presented in DAO, and feel like I was hit over the head with extremes in DA2.  The conflict is an intriguing element and adds a great deal of tension to the world and setting - or at least it did.

Truth be told, I would have liked to learn more about the different factions (or "parties") within the mage circles instead of what we got.  They reduced the issue to middle gray versus middle gray and put me in a position where I was forced to choose between two equally unpalatable extremes to finish the game.  Not cool.

#57
GunMoth

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Maria Caliban wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

Here is a challenge: Try to make things marketable / accessable / monetize-able while also making it YOUR ideal Dragon Age 3. OR find examples of games that have been successful in the past while also maintaining their appeal to a niche demographic (Dark Souls / Demons Souls being two)


My ideal game looks nothing like the Dragon Age series.

That said, I've never had to compromise for a BioWare game, and I doubt I'll need to in the future. Compromises are for people whose tastes and expectations are too narrow.


Then what would your ideal DA look like without compromises?

My ideal RPG would have a pre-defined protagonist, no combat or inventory, no party, have a science fiction horror setting (think System Shock), and no classes.

I don't have an ideal Dragon Age.

Metaphor: My favorite food is Greek, but I also like Chinese, Thai, Indian, Italian, Americana, Tex-Mex, German, and French foods. It's not a compromise for me to go to a German restaurant.


Yeah that's why in the OP I said your ideal dragon age. Not your ideal game. My ideal game is more along the lines of the Kings Field/Demon/Dark Souls series. But I am aware Dragon Age is not those things and I would never want to see it turn into a hack and slash action adventure. 

I'm not asking people to lower their expectations -- but to find creative solutions to obstacles that game developers may have to deal with. Some solutions may be better, some may be worse. For example, I personally think their solution to the armor issue is better than both games combined for this type of genre and what the fans are demanding. 

tl;dr: The point of this thread was to put yourself in the seat of the devs with expectations from the audience, yourself, and your publisher. 

That's fine if you don't want to be involved. Don't post?  

#58
Pzykozis

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GunMoth wrote...

I didnt mean this literally. I said "it feels like" (a metaphor). The dialog has nice touches -- but Im talking about the voice actress in question and how it FEELS awkward. 


To be pedantic it's a simile not a metaphor. :innocent:

My ideal dragon age.. the world would be far bleaker, and would probably involve darkspawn or demons or something a lot, it'd be non party based or have the ability to get henchmen but you can't asssume direct control and more action orientated, basically you'd be in an area dwindling under constant threat of wildlife, tainted wildlife and darkspawn/undead/maybe a bandit army. World would be highly interactive in the need to reinforce farmsteads in the surrounding areas, and towns and villages needing defence in order to grow the city and better push against the world this involves building walls etc. supporting research projects and stuff. Anyay without writing up a design document that's what I'd like in short.

Though tbf thats not my ideal dragon age that just an ideal game, DA doesn't really fit the mould and I don't really require that of it, but hopefully the next generation of dark souls / dragon's dogma style games will move this way and I'll be happy.

I'm fairly open with games so I don't really have any compromises I need to put forth.

#59
GunMoth

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Pasquale1234 wrote...

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

Also I actually prefer a major issue like Mage vs Templar to remain in the background to flesh out the world. Rather than lets make Mage vs Templars the main focus of the game. Then next we can do a game about War against the Qunarri, then Elven Rebellion, then war against Tevinter slavers etc.

In Orgins the Mage-Templar issue is dispersed throughout the game like Morrigan, Alistair, Redcliffe, Calenhad.  And it is ongoing, nuanced and affects people in different ways. But DA2 seemed so extreme and caricature.


It's good to see that I'm not the only person who feels this way.

I "got" the conflict as presented in DAO, and feel like I was hit over the head with extremes in DA2.  The conflict is an intriguing element and adds a great deal of tension to the world and setting - or at least it did.

Truth be told, I would have liked to learn more about the different factions (or "parties") within the mage circles instead of what we got.  They reduced the issue to middle gray versus middle gray and put me in a position where I was forced to choose between two equally unpalatable extremes to finish the game.  Not cool.


This I agree with. If you didn't read about Kirkwall's relationship with the fade, it would make no sense to players coming from DA:O as to why most of the mages we run into are bloodmages/abominations etc. It made it hard to empathize with some of the struggles the mages went through.

I still would have liked a neutral option where you sided with Aveline and the town guard. :x 

#60
GunMoth

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Pzykozis wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

I didnt mean this literally. I said "it feels like" (a metaphor). The dialog has nice touches -- but Im talking about the voice actress in question and how it FEELS awkward. 


To be pedantic it's a simile not a metaphor. :innocent:

My ideal dragon age.. the world would be far bleaker, and would probably involve darkspawn or demons or something a lot, it'd be non party based or have the ability to get henchmen but you can't asssume direct control and more action orientated, basically you'd be in an area dwindling under constant threat of wildlife, tainted wildlife and darkspawn/undead/maybe a bandit army. World would be highly interactive in the need to reinforce farmsteads in the surrounding areas, and towns and villages needing defence in order to grow the city and better push against the world this involves building walls etc. supporting research projects and stuff. Anyay without writing up a design document that's what I'd like in short.

Though tbf thats not my ideal dragon age that just an ideal game, DA doesn't really fit the mould and I don't really require that of it, but hopefully the next generation of dark souls / dragon's dogma style games will move this way and I'll be happy.

I'm fairly open with games so I don't really have any compromises I need to put forth.


Haha (ninja edit. Misread something)

Of course of course. And understandable. Its easy to appreciate the work individuals put into a game. The whole thing is meant to be an entertaining experience. But I will say I enjoy some games moreso than others. And with some of the plot points theyve been hinting at, I cant help but attempt to compile constructive / positive ideas to the fan feedback in order to give Bioware a comprehensive list of what our hopes and dreams are. Even if I'm being too optimistic about how much they listen. 

Modifié par GunMoth, 15 avril 2012 - 07:50 .


#61
GunMoth

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Still trying to read everything. :3 I really liked the suggestion someone said about having the same Male/female voice actor for all races. I could see some fan complaints about that, but I think it would be fine if the paraphrasing was fixed as well as the addition of racial specific dialog. It would give the feel of more player agency.

Modifié par GunMoth, 15 avril 2012 - 07:56 .


#62
Ponendus

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Maria Caliban wrote...

My ideal RPG would have a pre-defined protagonist, no combat or inventory, no party, have a science fiction horror setting (think System Shock), and no classes.

I don't have an ideal Dragon Age. 


Well firstly, your game sounds fun. :)

Secondly, really? You can't imagine an ideal Dragon Age game in your head? My favourite food is Italian, but I still have my ideal Chinese dish.

#63
Maria Caliban

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Ponendus wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

My ideal RPG would have a pre-defined protagonist, no combat or inventory, no party, have a science fiction horror setting (think System Shock), and no classes.

I don't have an ideal Dragon Age. 


Well firstly, your game sounds fun. :)

Secondly, really? You can't imagine an ideal Dragon Age game in your head? My favourite food is Italian, but I still have my ideal Chinese dish.

But you've probably had dozens of Chinese dishes. I've only had 2.5 Dragon Age games.

#64
Ponendus

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

My ideal RPG would have a pre-defined protagonist, no combat or inventory, no party, have a science fiction horror setting (think System Shock), and no classes.

I don't have an ideal Dragon Age. 


Well firstly, your game sounds fun. :)

Secondly, really? You can't imagine an ideal Dragon Age game in your head? My favourite food is Italian, but I still have my ideal Chinese dish.

But you've probably had dozens of Chinese dishes. I've only had 2.5 Dragon Age games.


Well, that's true, but one can still dream right? You can take the best of dish one and dish two and imagine what dish three would look and taste like?

Also, I'm now hungry for some reason.

#65
eroeru

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I'm thinking top French quisine, and the hamburger-place on the corner of my district (yuck!) - respectively...

#66
Dessalines

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GunMoth wrote...

INTRODUCTION

QUESTIONS: 


1. Dialog and Voice Acting
Conflict: How could Bioware maintain a cinematic feel to make players/casual players feel more involved with the narrative while also giving players who want more of an immersive/traditional role playing game experience the feeling of player agency / give the game an immersive quality? 

2. Return of Race / Origins
Conflict: How could Bioware give us the ability to have an origin / background / race while also not putting a strain on any technical / dialog limitations? OR would you rather we be given one choice (Hawke or someone else)? 

3. Difficulty and Strategy
Conflict: How could Bioware give the audience a feeling of responsive / fluid combat while also developing a truly in depth combat engine for players who want something challenging and engaging?

4. Artistic Direction
Conflict: How can we give distinguishable "personalities" to the characters cosmetics while also allowing us to customize them? Would you be willing to sacrifice graphics for something else? How did you feel about the art change in DA 2 and DA: Origins? What is the most visually appealing fantasy game to you? What defines a "dark fantasy?"

5. Player Agency
Conflict: Do you guys want player agency that spans over the course of many games? Or would you rather have a game that carries over a few things but has a LOT of important choices that effect your immediate gameplay in that installment? For example: Witcher 1 and Witcher 2 have very few things that carry over, but a lot of your choices are very "grey" in terms of morality and require very careful thought as many of them can ultimately screw you over or have a HUGE impact on your game. Just not on a sequel etc. OR would you guys like something more like Mass Effect where you have to work to establish the trust of certain races / societies over the course of several games?

6. Character Development / Romances
Conflict: Did you enjoy DA: Origins characters better or DA: 2's characters? Why? What would you do to add more depth to romances / character development? What made certain characters stand out to you? How could Bioware make something that isnt an "ancient evil" feel more compelling? 

7. ANCIENT EVIL
Conflict: How can Bioware successfully break free of the "ancient evil" type narrative device? How could the issues of DA2 been more successfull? Do we need an ancient evil?


1) Dialog and Voice acting/ Okay, I've been rping for over30 years. I started with Choose your own adventures books, and I am immeresed in a game that has voice acting. Actually, I am bit more immersed in video game that has voice acting than a video game when I am silent protaganist.

a) I used to play video games i remember when vide games started, and they rarely had ethnic characters, or character creation systems. If you wanted to play the game, you had to immerse yourself in that character. Even to this day, if you going on different video game boards, people are still basically told to just immerse themselves in the game, and complaining not being able to alter your appearance should not matter. I find it  amazing silly that people are now complaining not being able to use the voice in the head, when they play a video game.

b)I think the way to solve it is easy, if you need hear a voice in your head to play a video game, then the game should have a caption system for all characters. why listen to anyone's voice in the game? I am pretty sure there is someone that finds Sten or Alistair's voice annoying. There should just have voice dialogue off option for the game,

2)Return of Races/Origin - I don't care either way. In Dragon Age: Origins, you got an extra quests because of your race, and it did put you in the mindset of the character, and depending on where you went,  you a bit more dialogue here and there, but it was not really that special.  I would play a profession Origin type story than a different race storyline. 

3) Difficult and Strategy:  Smarter Ai, don't buy the strategy guide, drink seven shots of Tequila before playing, play the first three minutes of each quests with the tv off

4) Artistic Direction and Ancient Evil:  The conflict comes from the fact that some people have been fed a steady diet of fantasy books in which the enemy is an ancient evil. If they cannot vanquish the ancient evil than the game is not epic. I did not think Dragon Age was a good game, because of the darkspawn. It was a great game, because of Loghain, the crisis with the werewolves, Morrigan, Leilana singing, and the Landsmeet. The darkspawn are just a fantasy version of the Reapers. They are ancient evil that rise up ever so oftern to wage war.  I do not think Bioware needs to use old plot devices like ancient evils iin their games every single game. Dark Age 2 was darker, because the evil that was being respresented did not come from some absolute  evil being, but base in human nature.  I do agree parts of Kirkwall could had a lot more detail.

5) Character Devellopment/Romance This is a simple one. If you make a popular npc dark skin, a take no prisoner honorable female warrior, and make everyone bisexual, then people are going to complained. Now, some of them will not complain about  those things mention, but they will just make up issues that are not even real. Ex: DA: O, everyone was like a dysfunction family., unlike in Dragon Age: 2. They did not even hang around each other in camp. Dragon Age 2, they actually talked with each other, and they even had conversations about their interactions together when you were not there. The banter was way better.  The question is how does Bioware create characters that are multi-dimensional that everyone loves. Solution: More companions, and more romances. You need a collection of characters that hang off every word the player speaks, will never be bisexual, and remind people of Prince Charming or the hot partty girl in high-school that never dated them. You can then create multi-dimesional characters for the rest of us.

I

Modifié par Dessalines, 16 avril 2012 - 03:24 .


#67
Monica83

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We had a lot of positive feedback and some negative.....

I am the only one that laughs at this?

#68
Uccio

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^ its quite sad actually.