246 réponses à ce sujet

[Sheoro]

JBONE27 wrote...

I agree with some of your points.

ME2 didn't matter that much, but it did supply certain things that helped.
1. It showed that the Reapers were semi-organic.
2. It allowed you to support peace between the Quarian and Geth.
3. It took away the collectors as an enemy.
4. It showed how creatures get modified by the Reapers.
5. It allowed you to keep Eve alive.

1. Yes, but this could've been done in a plotline that actually has something to do with stopping the Reapers.
2. Which has absolutely no consequence at all.
3. ME2 introduced them, ME2 took them away. Where's the gain?
4. Only the Protheans, they're unique in their case.
5. A rather random consequence.

JBONE27 wrote...
The Geth.
You're simply wrong. The Geth
were being enhanced by the Reapers, they weren't indoctrinated. It was
also about them becoming more sentient and individualistic, which was
actually pretty cool.

Here's an excerpt from the ME-Wiki, it's how I percepted it, too:
"...the geth to choose to make a deal with the Reapers,allowing themselves to be controlled by Reaper code in order to become more effective fighters..."

JBONE27 wrote...
Garrus: They grew closer... people do that when they are in battle situations.

ME2: "Can't that wait for a bit? I'm in the middle of some calibrations." <- Keeps to himself in a secluded part of the ship
ME3, just 6 (?) months later: "DRRRRINKS FOR MY BUDDY SHEPARRRD"

JBONE27 wrote...
EDI
She became unshackled plus it was
alluded to that even when the shackles were in place, she had emotions
and a sense of loyalty.

Did you actually read what I said? She says clearly she has no emotions, while having some. She has no reason to lie about that. It also interferes with Mordin's statement in ME2 where he actually recognizes her as an AI due to the emotions in her voice.

JBONE27 wrote...
1. Ground Troupes.
2. Soverign was one of
the larger and more shielded reapers, most of them were a lot easier to
take down, as we saw on Ranoc and Tuchanka.

Again, what use are ground troops if the actual enemy can reproduce them endlessly and isn't actually affected that much by loosing them?
The reaper on Tuchanka was taken down by an ancient gigantic monster, and the one on Rannoch by the concentrated firepower of the whole quarian fleet.

[KeilxKey]

da mighty rEAper wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

da mighty rEAper wrote...

KeilxKey wrote...

OP, I'll put it plain and simple. To me a great game is more than just it's narrative. To me a great game is about it's atmosphere, about it's characters, it's about the music, it's about the level design, it's about the gameplay, etc..

I think Mass Effect 3 excelled in all those areas. Thus it's a great game to me. It's narrative might have various plotholes, and might not be on par with ME1, or ME2. But to me that's okay, because the rest of the aspects excelled much higher.

You basically say that action and graphics part is more attractive for you, theres one flaw here, its an rpg....its secondary and please, dont get me wrong, action and graphics are good, but not when its at the expense of the story, etc

correction ME is and has always been an Action RPG hybrid.

Even ME1 was action interspersed with story.  The whole "RPG" system revolved around combat to a degree.  But then most RPGs do essentially revolve around bouts of combat with bouts of story...

but no ME has never been a FULL blown RPG.

ofc its tps/rpg, its still not an excuse for devs to put more effort in multiplayer and action part in a decisive part of the trilogy with "supposedly" one of the best stories..

How did they put more effort? They took a small team, and asked them to make mp. It's obvious the mp was something they worked long and hard for considering how basic it is.

 Also the action? Would you've preferred the clunky mess of the previous me games? Personally, not I. 

[Cainne Chapel]

da mighty rEAper wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

da mighty rEAper wrote...

KeilxKey wrote...

OP, I'll put it plain and simple. To me a great game is more than just it's narrative. To me a great game is about it's atmosphere, about it's characters, it's about the music, it's about the level design, it's about the gameplay, etc..

I think Mass Effect 3 excelled in all those areas. Thus it's a great game to me. It's narrative might have various plotholes, and might not be on par with ME1, or ME2. But to me that's okay, because the rest of the aspects excelled much higher.

You basically say that action and graphics part is more attractive for you, theres one flaw here, its an rpg....its secondary and please, dont get me wrong, action and graphics are good, but not when its at the expense of the story, etc

correction ME is and has always been an Action RPG hybrid.

Even ME1 was action interspersed with story.  The whole "RPG" system revolved around combat to a degree.  But then most RPGs do essentially revolve around bouts of combat with bouts of story...

but no ME has never been a FULL blown RPG.

ofc its tps/rpg, its still not an excuse for devs to put more effort in multiplayer and action part in a decisive part of the trilogy with "supposedly" one of the best stories..

True but the combat in ME1 was one of the "bad" points in most press for ME1.  Thus they changed it to make the action...well... more action-y which I cant fault them on as I enjoy the hell outta combat in ME2 and ME3.  I mean it makes sense to make combat enjoyable if you spend half the time IN it. 

With as much combat that goes on it would make sense they focus on fun combat and good story both.

and honestly, I've played MP in ME3, its not getting more effort than teh story or SP, I mean its essentially using EVERY asset fromt he SP and putting it in MP format.  

[KeilxKey]

I don't get your con about Garrus. It's natural over time for relationships to grow. When you know someone for a long time, you become attatched, your frienship grows.

Why are you acting like this is something new?

[Sheoro]

Noelemahc wrote...
See above. You CAN call the idiots on it, sadly, it takes a lot of death on all sides until they finally stop.

It isn't just that but the fact they're becoming idiots RIGHT. AT. THE. WORST. TIME. Not one year earlier, not one year later, no, right at the events of ME3. I have the theory that the writers had no idea what to write so they made the player solve both major ancient problems (Krogans and Quarians) in a row, and Quarians attacking Geth was the perfect plot device for that.

[Cainne Chapel]

I would have to agree.

Why are you opposed to characters (Garrus, EDI, Wrex) growing and changing over the course of the series?

Woudn't it be BAD writing if they DIDN'T considering what they all go through together at shepards call?

You've still never answered my original inquiry about that either....


As for the ground troops, cant just let them run around and destroy everything can you? Sure the reapers can keep spitting them out, but the ground forces have to keep repelling them.

Thats like asking why dont the civilizations of the universe just let the reapers win.

[Cainne Chapel]

Sheoro wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...
See above. You CAN call the idiots on it, sadly, it takes a lot of death on all sides until they finally stop.

It isn't just that but the fact they're becoming idiots RIGHT. AT. THE. WORST. TIME. Not one year earlier, not one year later, no, right at the events of ME3. I have the theory that the writers had no idea what to write so they made the player solve both major ancient problems (Krogans and Quarians) in a row, and Quarians attacking Geth was the perfect plot device for that.

Well it was going to happen at some point during the games as it was alluded to in ME2.... heavily.

But yes the Quarians did pick the WORST possible time and would NOT back down for whatever reason.  But hey it worked.  Rannoch was one of my favorite parts of the story and who better than shepard to solve 2 centuries old problems all int he span of a few weeks?

[da mighty rEAper]

2 things that spoiled the story for me:

crucible(or at the very least how it was introduced in the story, just imagine how much better it would be if for example if it was a cerberus project..)

and how they wasted illusive man potential, this one is unforgivable :C he could be sooo much more than just another indoctrinated guy who shots himself in the head just like me1 "supposed villain" did

this is ...lame and lazy

[da mighty rEAper]

da mighty rEAper wrote...

2 things that spoiled the story for me:

crucible(or at the very least how it was introduced in the story, just imagine how much better it would be if for example if it was a cerberus project.., or it had smth to do with protoreaper from me2)

and how they wasted illusive man potential, this one is unforgivable :C he could be sooo much more than just another indoctrinated guy who shots himself in the head just like me1 "supposed villain" did

this is ...lame and lazy

edited

[AlanC9]

Noelemahc wrote...
The Crucible is established in advance, but with an unknown function. The Deus Ex Machina, both the plot device and the literal character, is the Catalyst, which is <this is a no-spoiler forum> and quite separate from the Crucible and appears out of the frakking blue.

True. But OTOH, Bio was pretty good about letting us know that something .... weird ... was going to happen when you actually activated the Crucible.

[AlanC9]

Sheoro wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...
See above. You CAN call the idiots on it, sadly, it takes a lot of death on all sides until they finally stop.

It isn't just that but the fact they're becoming idiots RIGHT. AT. THE. WORST. TIME. Not one year earlier, not one year later, no, right at the events of ME3. I have the theory that the writers had no idea what to write so they made the player solve both major ancient problems (Krogans and Quarians) in a row, and Quarians attacking Geth was the perfect plot device for that.

Didn't know what to write? You did play Tali's LM, right? You didn't see the big neon signs saying MAJOR ME3 PLOT POINT HERE?

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 avril 2012 - 08:44 .

[Vormaerin]

It was pretty obvious they were planning a war already. That's why the pacifist Admiral was being so squirrely about the whole thing with Tali.

[IanPolaris]

Noelemahc wrote...

If you bring Legion to the Migrant Fleet in ME2, Daro'Xen will reveal that, being the Quarian equivalent of Tesla, Mengele and Einstein combined, she, like Rael'Zorah, was working on anti-geth stuff. She's actually a very terrible person if you listen to her long enough, and it's clear that Tali hates her with every fibre of her being. Just sayin'.

That is because Tali Zorah is an excellent judge of character.  Admiral Daro'Xen is EVIL.  Full stop evil. She is also brilliant and unfortunately even for my paragon Shep, Admiral Xen is simply too useful and too brilliant to do without. 

-Polaris

[iReplaya]

I actually like it, i enjoyed the mass effect 3 experience (not the end ofcourse) maybe it's because i don't care about the who the writers are or if the lore fits correctly. And i have been a fan since ME1.

[Clover Rider]

Without getting into anything of your post(most of the stuff I agree on) I just want to say something. Even with new writers, you could say why Wrex makes jokes and acts the way he does is because he loosen up a bit, as clan leader. People grow and do show different sides of themselves, more so under certain situations, like how we see Wrex at his most angriest side by being betrayed here. 
 

Now It was stupid that he never said hello.

But anyway somewhat the same could be said for Legion, EDI and Garrus. Even if people say it was the fans that made Garrus like the way he is now(and the fans did), it still makes him a better character in the end, so meh.

Modifié par Some Geth, 15 avril 2012 - 09:40 .

[arathor_87]

Sheoro wrote...

That's what I read and hear constantly:
"The ending was horrible, but the rest was good/great/awesome/brilliant/ME3 was the best ME"
How can you actually say that? Even completely disregarding the mess that is the ending, I was sitting there the whole game with an unbelieving face, stuttering on the inside: "Did that just happen?" or "Did he actually say that?"

Here's a few things that just come to my mind:



- Your choices don’t matter
This doesn't just apply to the ending, it applies to the whole game. Did [companion from ME1/ME2] die? No problem, he's replaced by some NPC. Kept the Collector base? Have some Military Strength Points. Kept that NPC in ME1 alive? Military Points. Your companions from ME2? Military points. That assignment in ME1/2? Military. Points. The biggest thing I’ve heard of was about the Salarian Councilor, and even that is just a penny.

- The Crucible
This is what you call a classic plot device, and "device" is even literal in this case. It also shows how completely pointless ME2 was: It should have been all about finding a way to stop the reapers. Instead we got that Cerberus and Collector stuff, and by the time ME3 was made, a writer or some cool guy found out: "Whoops, the reapers are attacking, but we haven't established a SINGLE CLUE about stopping them. Ah,  I'll just let Liara find a superweapon on, uh, Mars." You want to tell me that is remotely good writing?

- Geth
As if ME2 wasn't pointless enough, another part about it became completely
null: The Geth indoctrination.
Here's a short illustration:
Mass Effect 1:
"The Geth are controlled by Reapers."
Mass Effect 2:
"Only a part of the Geth is controlled by Reapers."
Mass Effect 3:
"The Geth are controlled by Reapers."
There was absolutely no point in Legion's appearance in ME2 - especially since the history of the Geth uprising is explained once again (though unfitting and amateurish). Kind of reminds me of DX:HR, where the canon ending is “everyone dies, nothing that happened matters”.

- Quarians
Oh yeah, another plot device. Right as the reapers attack, the Quarians invent some device that makes the Geth vulnerable.
Just a short reminder: Not long ago we were told that Quarian ships are made of scrap metal and duct tape. That if there's no noise, the engine died. Their whole pilgrimage bases on the fact their ships are flying junk that seriously needs some fixing.
Geth, on the other hand, had 300 years of access to unlimited resources and high-end technology. Not to mention all their other benefits from being synthetic. There is no way they didn’t build superior defenses and fleets.
And now I have to believe the Quarians just said "Hey, we COINCIDENTALLY found this plot device, let's take the risk of dooming our whole race and dive right into the shark's pool"?

- Companions
Am I the only one who noticed the massive changes in behavior for most Companions?
A short list:
Garrus
Went from untalkative ("Shepard", the only reaction upon seeing him again in ME2) to Roman Bellic ("Shepard, bars! Drinks, Shepard! Let's go bowling!")
Wrex
DIDN'T EVEN SAY HELLO. Tells unfunny knee-slappers jokes.
Ashley
Bimbofized.
Legion
Suddenly acts like an individual, nothing about its involvement makes any sense. Uses the word "beautiful".

- EDI
Okay, they totally messed up here. EDI’s writer from ME2 left, and if you didn’t notice that, I just won’t believe you.  She constantly contradicts herself and former AI lore, stating for example that she has no emotions – meanwhile  dating Jeff, making Jokes and actually following Shepard out of loyalty.
And do I even have to mention the horrible, horrible[/i] design choice that is her body? It also leaves the question:
Why aren’t Geth remote-controlling bodies and ships from a safe spot?



- Dialogue
Can you even call it dialogue anymore? There were maybe two sentences Shepard said in ME1 that didn't require my input - and now he now talks all day by himself. Out of a 10 minutes dialogue cutscene I had two occasions to actually choose something. And these weren’t even meaningful choices.
Best example is that kid at the beginning: A renegade, or even just a mildly intelligent Shepard wouldn't waste his time on a single kid since there are millions dying already! But you can't influence that because someone really wanted him to have cliched nightmares.
Oh, not to mention the voice acting quality suffered greatly from the loss of Ginny McSwain.



- Illusive Man
This guy had potential to be a god-tier villain. He is cruel, he is immoral, but his reasoning is flawless.
Whooosh, nope, indoctrinated! Since 20 years. From the first moment on I wanted to know "TIM, HOW do you want to control them?", but Shepard doesn't ask (quality writing strikes again) and TIM doesn't explain. He just wants to do it. And he merely tried to convince Shepard, his most expensive project[/i], to believe him.



- The "war"
This is really something that kept pressing on my mind the whole game:
Since ME1 we know that one single reaper needs a whole fleet to get destroyed, so a whole fleet of reapers needs an ungodly amount of firepower. Even in ME3, they manage to destroy the entire Earth defense force in seconds! It isn't war, it's slaughter, it’s pure survival, and everyone acknowledges that...
...and, seconds after, talks about it like a regular war: "The Reapers are pressing on our borders", "Their forces are in entrenched positions", and, my favorite, "we totally need the Krogan to fight these giant invincible
starships!"

- Last
but not least

3/4 of ME1's staff wasn't involved in ME3:

http://www.abload.de...3staff1uk9b.jpg

 

Some of these points may or may not be important to you, but they’re mostly fact  and they, along to all that stuff I  didn’t list* sum up to an overall picture that shows a rushed, monetized game that had no artistic integrity from the first day of production.

*just straight from my mind: Space Ninjas, asking a Turian to help Earth while standing right in front of his burning homeworld, Javik being another plot device par excellence

I'm one of those who didn't like the ending, but I think the game was very good until that point. There are some other things they could have done better, like less autodialogue and some other flaws. But it's not a bad game. I know the ending is important, and I'll hope they can give us some clarification and closure with the EC DLC. Unitl then, people need to go on with their lives.

[Fireblader70]

OP, this is a dramatic space opera, not a detailed historical account of the galaxy. It was either find a superweapon device, defeat the Reapers conventionally, or die. The first option gives a higher chance of survival. Yes, it could be seen as a cheap way out, but there you go.
What would you have preferred instead?

To me, the rest of the game was great. The major plot threads were resolved with emotions running high, my squad felt alive, and the atmosphere of doom and war was fantastic.

I won't let a bad ending ruin the brilliant experience I had with this story, even if there were a few problems. The ones that I truly noticed/cared about were:

- Journal system
- Abundance of fetch quests
- Abundance of auto-dialogue (not to be confused with lack of choice - there was plenty of that)

Everything else I see as nitpicking, because they didn't bother me in the slightest. My opinion, of course!

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Personally, appart from fights which are better in ME3 that in ME2 (but still worst than ME1's ones), almost everything is disappointing at best.

[Asch Lavigne]

Fireblader70 wrote...

OP, this is a dramatic space opera, not a detailed historical account of the galaxy. It was either find a superweapon device, defeat the Reapers conventionally, or die. The first option gives a higher chance of survival. Yes, it could be seen as a cheap way out, but there you go.
What would you have preferred instead?

To me, the rest of the game was great. The major plot threads were resolved with emotions running high, my squad felt alive, and the atmosphere of doom and war was fantastic.

I won't let a bad ending ruin the brilliant experience I had with this story, even if there were a few problems. The ones that I truly noticed/cared about were:

- Journal system
- Abundance of fetch quests
- Abundance of auto-dialogue (not to be confused with lack of choice - there was plenty of that)

Everything else I see as nitpicking, because they didn't bother me in the slightest. My opinion, of course!

I agree with the journal system and auto-dialogue.

I would add to your list:
The opening.
Decisions I made being overwritten or not mattering. (The Collector Base, Rachni, Anderson/Udina, Kasumi's graybox, etc...)
Some animations (namely the running and the way FemShep sits).

Otherwise in my opinion 90% of the game was excellent.

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 15 avril 2012 - 11:51 .

[Reever]

You have some serious flaws in your argumentation (which have been already dealt with I think?...). But then you do have some points - still, I think it was a really good game till the end!

[Herky]

I really liked the game as a whole though

[Herky]

"...no other series of games spanning two or more direct sequels have given players the amount of choice and consequence that Mass Effect has,
and I think fans would do well to remember that. The fact that this was
achieved in just two years – the same amount of time Infinity Wards
dedicates to new Call of Duty shooters – speaks volumes of the effort and dedication the team at BioWare actually put in to make it as good as it is."

Modifié par Herky, 15 avril 2012 - 02:17 .

[lillitheris]

I think it's a perfectly valid opinion. If you can overlook the end, more power to you.

Only time I have a problem with it is when the argument is flipped around and I'm told I shouldn't “hate” the game because of the ending.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Herky wrote...

"...no other series of games spanning two or more direct sequels have given players the amount of choice and consequence that Mass Effect has,
and I think fans would do well to remember that. The fact that this was
achieved in just two years – the same amount of time Infinity Wards
dedicates to new Call of Duty shooters – speaks volumes of the effort and dedication the team at BioWare actually put in to make it as good as it is."

Choices we were given in ME1 and ME2 a lots, conscequences we were given some in ME2, but ME3 in the end give little choices and even fewer consequences (unless you consider +X number in war asset "consequences").

[Vasarkian]

Look, any game that can make people not play it again after playing it should be heavily considered to have serious flaws.