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[Thoughts_My_Aim]

simfamSP wrote...


The OP forgets that Reapers doesn't only mean those huge ships. There are husks, cannibals, brutes... alot of ground fighting is involved.

True, but one gets the distinct impression that those husks, cannibals and brutes are there to give your ground forces something to *do*. The Reapers don't seem to need their ground forces for anything other than coolness factor.

[Father_Jerusalem]

I'm curious, OP. Is there any sort of thing that can be said that would be considered "good" evidence to contradict your points, or will you continue ranting and raving despite any evidence to the contrary?

[CroGamer002]

Chewin3 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Wait, really?!

Yup.

Oh.

Then keeping Collectors base kinda does matter.
And same some choice from past games matters for ending.


Heh, go figure.

[Thoughts_My_Aim]

simfamSP wrote...

And what? We'd be screwed at the start of the game?

No, you'd be rendered incapable of resolving one plotline in one way at the start of the game.

Talk the Krogan around, or fight without them (you don't actually need them anyway), or enslave them with a Turian army, or lure the Reapers to their homeworld to force them into the conflict.

Is it really so outlandish to suggest that an RPG could be designed with multiple ways to achieve the same goal?

[MortalEngines]

Just a note about the 3/4 of the staff from ME1 were not in ME3 (or ME2 probably) there are many reasons for this.

Mainly because around the time ME1 was reaching it's completion, EA had just bought Bioware. This obviously meant that some staff were going to leave and go. Also, in a studio, the development team (other than the leads) often change around.

For example a lot of the writers didn't leave, but simply were moved to different projects, like Luke going over to do Dragon Age work.

[Cainne Chapel]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

simfamSP wrote...


The OP forgets that Reapers doesn't only mean those huge ships. There are husks, cannibals, brutes... alot of ground fighting is involved.

True, but one gets the distinct impression that those husks, cannibals and brutes are there to give your ground forces something to *do*. The Reapers don't seem to need their ground forces for anything other than coolness factor.

THe reapers STILL need ground forces.  As many ships as they have they cant be everywhere at once and ground forces help them bog down the enemy organics and "harvest" them.

Not having ground forces is like a Prison not having guards.  They need the smaller ground forces to impose themselves on organics on their behalf because they're much to BIG and Important to do Grunt work.

Plus if we didn't have ground forces...wouldnt be much of a game would it?

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Cainne Chapel wrote...
There were quite a high number of "consequences" in ME3.  or is resolving centures and millineia old galactic issues not...major enough for ya?

It would have been consequences if affected by what I did before. You can acheive peace between Quarian and Geth whatever the choices you made in ME2. You can cure the Krogans even if you destroyed the cure in ME2. Everyone killed before gets someone taking it's place. The stupid, unbearable human councillor always end up councillor whatever I do.
So as I said, the difference only end being +X points.

[Cainne Chapel]

Not true, you dont get two new squadmates if Tali and Garrus are gone.

You also CANNOT (or at least I have not seen that you can) Make peace with the GETH AND Quarians no matter what the ME2 choice you made (you can choose either or, but unless you didn't do something in ME2, you cant get BOTH) which, while outside the scope of the game is a HUGE impact on the "pretend universe".

and yes Udina becomes councilor no matter what, I dont mind that, Anderson is needed on the front lines anyway,I like him better in the fight.

Are the differences in choices illusions? Of course they are. They've been that way from the start (ME1). Because no matter WHAT, the game is going to have a set path regardless... it DOES have a certain narrative. So everything we do is an "illusion of choice".

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I own this thread, because no one could oppose my short comment in page 2 :b

[Herky]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...
There were quite a high number of "consequences" in ME3.  or is resolving centures and millineia old galactic issues not...major enough for ya?

It would have been consequences if affected by what I did before. You can acheive peace between Quarian and Geth whatever the choices you made in ME2. You can cure the Krogans even if you destroyed the cure in ME2. Everyone killed before gets someone taking it's place. The stupid, unbearable human councillor always end up councillor whatever I do.
So as I said, the difference only end being +X points.

it's not only points, you meet people who could have died and vice versa and there's extra dialogue for other choices, you know this

[DarkDragon777]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Around 40% of the quests are "fetch" quests (or scan).

I think 75% is a more accurate estimate.

[Cainne Chapel]

I still have no problem with Fetch quests.

Their ME3's time sink. Much like Resource Gathering in ME2 and Random node/medallion/asari writing gathering in ME1.

Except their a relatively small time sink.

[TheMightyG00sh]

- Your choices don’t matter

You do realise right that there is technically a plethora of canon arcs that can from EACH AND EVERY PLAYTHROUGH. How do you go about programming the possibility of: Anderson or Udina being Councillor, the Council being sacrificed/saved, Wrex surviving/dying, the V.S, the survival or death of the Rachni Queen, the destruction of Collector Base (or the handing it over to TIM giving that TIM probably would use the Collector Base as his safe haven,the loyalty and romance of EVERY SINGLE person, the constantly varying range of the players emotion to each character (I'm a Talimancer who can't stand Vega but someone might like both equally whilst another may hate Tali and love Vega), the survival of each individual person, the reaction of Shepard to the council in ME2 and the actual recruitment of Garrus/Wrex in ME1? And these are only half of the endless possibilities.

- The Crucible
This is what you call a classic plot device, and "device" is even literal in this case. It also shows how completely pointless ME2 was: It should have been all about finding a way to stop the reapers. Instead we got that Cerberus and Collector stuff, and by the time ME3 was made, a writer or some cool guy found out: "Whoops, the reapers are attacking, but we haven't established a SINGLE CLUE about stopping them. Ah,  I'll just let Liara find a superweapon on, uh, Mars." You want to tell me that is remotely good writing?

- Geth and the Quarians
Oh yeah, another plot device. Right as the reapers attack, the Quarians invent some device that makes the Geth vulnerable.
Just a short reminder: Not long ago we were told that Quarian ships are made of scrap metal and duct tape. That if there's no noise, the engine died. Their whole pilgrimage bases on the fact their ships are flying junk that seriously needs some fixing.
Geth, on the other hand, had 300 years of access to unlimited resources and high-end technology. Not to mention all their other benefits from being synthetic. There is no way they didn’t build superior defenses and fleets.
And now I have to believe the Quarians just said "Hey, we COINCIDENTALLY found this plot device, let's take the risk of dooming our whole race and dive right into the shark's pool"?

Wow you know NOTHING of the Geth/Quarian war.

In Mass Effect 2 when Tali is faced with Exile it is because he father was testing a virus that would weaken the Geth allowing the war that shortly followed to indeed happen.

In their weakened state the Geth were desperate... and as you said the Reapers were there. They offered their technology and the Geth in last ditch attempt at survival took it not realising that it would only lead to their enslaving.

Furthermore the Quarians were desperate to reclaim their homeworld. It was also BEFORE the Reapers attacked that the war started. Furthermore the Geth didn't need to improve their technology as they never truly ventured beyond the Perseus Veil, they are clearly a pacifistic(?) race of synthetic, who only attack people they believe are a threat to them (i.e. those that enter the Perseus Veil and the Quarians that attempted to preemptively annihilate them three centuries ago.

- Companions
Am I the only one who noticed the massive changes in behavior for most Companions?
A short list:
Garrus
Went from untalkative ("Shepard", the only reaction upon seeing him again in ME2) to Roman Bellic ("Shepard, bars! Drinks, Shepard! Let's go bowling!")
Wrex
Wrex hated you in ME1 he only teamed with you to take down Fist at first and ended up becoming your close friend after Virmire when you persuade him against keeping the facility.
Ashley
OK, this I agree with. Ashley went from Tomboy to Diva. I understood the breast enlargement in ME2 as they could now give each character a different breast size increasing realism but then in ME3 she gets herself plastic surgery, a haircut and a personality transplant? Yeah right...
Legion
The origins of the Quarian/Geth war came from the Quarians augmenting the Geth more and more into true AI status. After a while the Geth began questioning there existence, showing a humanity the Quarians were scared of. This humanity was brought further into existence by the Reaper Tech which gave them a power individual as well as an extremely potent group mentality, this is why the Legion/Tali decision is so important.

- EDI

Just because she follows Shepard doesn't mean she's loyal in the conventional sense. Legion was not truly loyal to Shepard. They share a common goal and that is the destruction of the Reapers and the survival of all sentient life that includes AI.
And do I even have to mention the horrible design choice that is her body? Whilst I agree that her body left alot to be desired it was clearly meant to give her a more feminine robot body. This was one of the many parts of development where the sexual fetishes of the creative team came into play. (Notice that they spent enough time on Liara's ass to even draw little pimples?)
Why aren’t Geth remote-controlling bodies and ships from a safe spot? EDI isn't remotely controlling Eva's body and rather she has integrated herself into the already cybernetically modified body of Eva and uses it as a platform to move around. The Geth have this exact same thing (The Neural Network serving as an example) and they are based in certain hubs around the galaxy (like the many hubs on the Heretic Station or the Reaper which was controlling the Geth because their AI was uploaded into it's systems allowing it to enhance them on Rannoch).
As for the supposed contradiction see my Legion comment... It is well written into Lore that heavily enhanced AI like the Geth and EDI gradually becoem more human. Whislt they will never truly be sapient they technically have the mannerisms of one. All things are curious about their existence and of the workings of other races. 

- Dialogue

This I entirely agree with. The dialogue was bad in this game, well not the acftual script, it had nice flow and al that crap but more about the fact that you had no control. My canon Shepard who left her crew to die because she wanted to be completely ready to ensure she saves the Galaxy stopped and begged a kid? Please my FemShep would have shot the kid for being stupid...

- Illusive Man
TIM was not fully indoctrinated. He was similar to Saren, controlled by
the Reaper but still had a mind of his own. With that mind he went to
work trying to control husks and then synthersis that signal to control
the Reapers. Once the Reapers realised he was THEN fully indoctrinated.
He was not indoctrinated at all in ME2 (if he was then why did Harbinger
waste all that time destroying Shepard JUST to have TIM bring him back
from the dead to stop the Collector's plan?)

- The "war"

As pointed out in another article just because an entire fleet destroyed
Sovereign it doesn't mean it would have taken EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE
SHIPS. The amount of ships their was immeasurable and the size of one
of the Alliance's fleet compared to that of the Migrant Fleet that
destroyed the Reaper on Rannoch gives a 10-50k ship range. Added to this
as I sated before is that you don't TECHNICALLY know just hwo many
ships would be needed. Sure it would be alot but just because 10k ships
took out Sovereign doesn't mean 2k ships couldn't have.

Also Anderson was the one reporting in on the ongoing war and he was speaking on ground offensive. The Reapers needed the planet  somewhat unscathed as it was clearly capable of producing life (duh) but they also needed the ground forces to be either captured or killed. He was reporting on the entrenching Cannibals/Brutes/Marauders/Husks/Banshees not the actual reapers... It was Admiral Hackett who was speaking on the Reapers themselves.

Also the Krogan weren't need for the giant ships, that's what the Geth, Quarian and Turians were for... they were needed for the ground offensive. No use taking out the Reapers when Earth is still being ravaged by a large amount of Reaper ground forces? The Krogan are the most dominant species in terms of conventional combat on the ground, rivalled perhaps only by the unpredictable and lethal Yarg. They would of course come in handy, after all they  hunted the Rachni to near exinction... twice.

- Last
but not least

3/4 of ME1's staff wasn't involved in ME3:

http://www.abload.de...3staff1uk9b.jpg

This is perhaps the only thing I have tkane from the thread...

Some of these points may or may not be important to you, but they’re mostly fact  and they, along to all that stuff I  didn’t list* sum up to an overall picture that shows a rushed, monetized game that had no artistic integrity from the first day of production.

"*just straight from my mind: Space Ninjas, asking a Turian to help Earth while standing right in front of his burning homeworld"
Space ninjas? Shepard was  a marine not a ninja for one, and two the Turians didn't help the humans until the Krogan helped the Turians...

"Javik being another plot device par excellence"
What else would you call the only surviving Prothean in the Galaxy? Clearly he would be instrumental to the plot given the whole cycle stuff...

I'm not exactly ecsatic about ME3 myself but god at least do research before flaming ignorantly...

Modifié par TheMightyG00sh, 15 avril 2012 - 05:50 .

[AlanC9]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...
No, you'd be rendered incapable of resolving one plotline in one way at the start of the game.

Talk the Krogan around, or fight without them (you don't actually need them anyway), or enslave them with a Turian army, or lure the Reapers to their homeworld to force them into the conflict.

Is it really so outlandish to suggest that an RPG could be designed with multiple ways to achieve the same goal?

It's not outlandish. But this would involve an awful lot of new dialogs, wouldn't it?

This is a very old RPG design argument. How much length are you willing to trade off for breadth?

Edit: Bio's house style has always been very light on alternative quest paths, and they've never liked locking out content because of earlier decisions. Some folks think that this makes Bio a bad RPG developer

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 avril 2012 - 05:56 .

[OutlawTorn6806]

I'm glad at least the OP is a definite minority, hah. ME 3 is agreed upon many to be pretty amazing. Additionally, ME 2 sucks.

[AlanC9]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

I still have no problem with Fetch quests.

Their ME3's time sink. Much like Resource Gathering in ME2 and Random node/medallion/asari writing gathering in ME1.

Except their a relatively small time sink.

I'm not sure most of the quests are technically "fetch" quests. In a fetch quest you're told to go somewhere and get something. Many of the ME3 quests involve finding something without specifically looking for it, and then finding someone who needs it if you don't already know who needs it. You're not so much deliberately doing something as you are just  being rewarded for keeping your eyes and ears open while doing other things.

So I think your examples are on point. It's basically the exploration time sink dressed up as quests.

Modifié par AlanC9, 15 avril 2012 - 05:53 .

[Critchley2010]

Mass Effect 3 is one of the best games I have every played. Yoy even take out the multiplayer, DLC and the prequels and it would still be up there. The game is just outstanding, regardless of the ending. Let's not forget that.

[OutlawTorn6806]

Critchley2010 wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is one of the best games I have every played. Yoy even take out the multiplayer, DLC and the prequels and it would still be up there. The game is just outstanding, regardless of the ending. Let's not forget that.

Some people have poor tastes, we have to try to live around them. I know its hard 

[Cainne Chapel]

Realistically Aim, there could of been a Dozen different ways to go about each mission in ME3....

But then you can have that same reasoning for ME1 and ME2 and every game under the sun. It basically comes down to resource limitations and technical limitations.

Devs can only do SO much. Or games would never be released or be on impossibly long dev cycles that it would render the need for multiple games redundant.

its just not feasible, at some point development time and money runs out.

[SalsaDMA]

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

Welcome to game development! You seem to have forgotten that one of ME3's advertizements were that "ME3 is the best entry point to the series".

I doubt the OP as forgotten that, I suspect that they just realise that it was a *terrible* move.

If the last volume of your trilogy works best if you have *not experienced* the previous two volumes of the trilogy, then you have done something seriously wrong.

So you would rather prefer military leaders run around in panic saying we're doomed? Well I give you that it would be amusing.

Joking aside, I don't really see the problem. There's a wat going and people are trying to fight it, rather than succumb to it. Personally I would start to think that people are worthless if all they do is talk how bad things are and there is no hope.

I'm pretty sure the OP's point is that there *isn't* a war going on. What's happening is that a completely overwhelming force is overwhelming a galaxy that can do *literally nothing* about it.

Which makes your efforts to recruit "War Assets" particularly pointless.

Not to mention:

My idea of a "war" isn't just 3 guys running around doing fetch errands. Heck, even the fighting is still 3 guys against random number of opponents. In my take, a war takes a 'little' more than 3 guys fighting on one side.

[Cainne Chapel]

I would agree Salsa.

its a shame the engine was only meant for groups of 3 though eh? I would of liked some epic battles going on.