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[DangerousPuddy]

Sheoro wrote...

That's what I read and hear constantly:
"The ending was horrible, but the rest was good/great/awesome/brilliant/ME3 was the best ME"
How can you actually say that? Even completely disregarding the mess that is the ending, I was sitting there the whole game with an unbelieving face, stuttering on the inside: "Did that just happen?" or "Did he actually say that?"

Here's a few things that just come to my mind:



- Your choices don’t matter
This doesn't just apply to the ending, it applies to the whole game. Did [companion from ME1/ME2] die? No problem, he's replaced by some NPC. Kept the Collector base? Have some Military Strength Points. Kept that NPC in ME1 alive? Military Points. Your companions from ME2? Military points. That assignment in ME1/2? Military. Points. The biggest thing I’ve heard of was about the Salarian Councilor, and even that is just a penny.

- The Crucible
This is what you call a classic plot device, and "device" is even literal in this case. It also shows how completely pointless ME2 was: It should have been all about finding a way to stop the reapers. Instead we got that Cerberus and Collector stuff, and by the time ME3 was made, a writer or some cool guy found out: "Whoops, the reapers are attacking, but we haven't established a SINGLE CLUE about stopping them. Ah,  I'll just let Liara find a superweapon on, uh, Mars." You want to tell me that is remotely good writing?

- Geth
As if ME2 wasn't pointless enough, another part about it became completely
null: The Geth indoctrination.
Here's a short illustration:
Mass Effect 1:
"The Geth are controlled by Reapers."
Mass Effect 2:
"Only a part of the Geth is controlled by Reapers."
Mass Effect 3:
"The Geth are controlled by Reapers."
There was absolutely no point in Legion's appearance in ME2 - especially since the history of the Geth uprising is explained once again (though unfitting and amateurish). Kind of reminds me of DX:HR, where the canon ending is “everyone dies, nothing that happened matters”.

- Quarians
Oh yeah, another plot device. Right as the reapers attack, the Quarians invent some device that makes the Geth vulnerable.
Just a short reminder: Not long ago we were told that Quarian ships are made of scrap metal and duct tape. That if there's no noise, the engine died. Their whole pilgrimage bases on the fact their ships are flying junk that seriously needs some fixing.
Geth, on the other hand, had 300 years of access to unlimited resources and high-end technology. Not to mention all their other benefits from being synthetic. There is no way they didn’t build superior defenses and fleets.
And now I have to believe the Quarians just said "Hey, we COINCIDENTALLY found this plot device, let's take the risk of dooming our whole race and dive right into the shark's pool"?

- Companions
Am I the only one who noticed the massive changes in behavior for most Companions?
A short list:
Garrus
Went from untalkative ("Shepard", the only reaction upon seeing him again in ME2) to Roman Bellic ("Shepard, bars! Drinks, Shepard! Let's go bowling!")
Wrex
DIDN'T EVEN SAY HELLO. Tells unfunny knee-slappers jokes.
Ashley
Bimbofized.
Legion
Suddenly acts like an individual, nothing about its involvement makes any sense. Uses the word "beautiful".

- EDI
Okay, they totally messed up here. EDI’s writer from ME2 left, and if you didn’t notice that, I just won’t believe you.  She constantly contradicts herself and former AI lore, stating for example that she has no emotions – meanwhile  dating Jeff, making Jokes and actually following Shepard out of loyalty.
And do I even have to mention the horrible, horrible[/i] design choice that is her body? It also leaves the question:
Why aren’t Geth remote-controlling bodies and ships from a safe spot?



- Dialogue
Can you even call it dialogue anymore? There were maybe two sentences Shepard said in ME1 that didn't require my input - and now he now talks all day by himself. Out of a 10 minutes dialogue cutscene I had two occasions to actually choose something. And these weren’t even meaningful choices.
Best example is that kid at the beginning: A renegade, or even just a mildly intelligent Shepard wouldn't waste his time on a single kid since there are millions dying already! But you can't influence that because someone really wanted him to have cliched nightmares.
Oh, not to mention the voice acting quality suffered greatly from the loss of Ginny McSwain.



- Illusive Man
This guy had potential to be a god-tier villain. He is cruel, he is immoral, but his reasoning is flawless.
Whooosh, nope, indoctrinated! Since 20 years. From the first moment on I wanted to know "TIM, HOW do you want to control them?", but Shepard doesn't ask (quality writing strikes again) and TIM doesn't explain. He just wants to do it. And he merely tried to convince Shepard, his most expensive project[/i], to believe him.



- The "war"
This is really something that kept pressing on my mind the whole game:
Since ME1 we know that one single reaper needs a whole fleet to get destroyed, so a whole fleet of reapers needs an ungodly amount of firepower. Even in ME3, they manage to destroy the entire Earth defense force in seconds! It isn't war, it's slaughter, it’s pure survival, and everyone acknowledges that...
...and, seconds after, talks about it like a regular war: "The Reapers are pressing on our borders", "Their forces are in entrenched positions", and, my favorite, "we totally need the Krogan to fight these giant invincible
starships!"

- Last
but not least

3/4 of ME1's staff wasn't involved in ME3:

http://www.abload.de...3staff1uk9b.jpg

 

Some of these points may or may not be important to you, but they’re mostly fact  and they, along to all that stuff I  didn’t list* sum up to an overall picture that shows a rushed, monetized game that had no artistic integrity from the first day of production.

*just straight from my mind: Space Ninjas, asking a Turian to help Earth while standing right in front of his burning homeworld, Javik being another plot device par excellence

Another reason why with perfect endings, ME3 would still be a great game, but behind ME1. ME2 was all flash and no substance (but still a great game).

[Garlador]

I think it says a lot that the ending is SO bad, it outshines nearly every other problem with the game. And there ARE problems with the game, from both story and game-driven mechanics.

But many of those problems weren't deal-breakers. I could enjoy the game in spite of these issues. Problems like the Mako in ME1 and mineral scanning in ME2 are just small bumps compared to enormous highs.

But ME3's ending is so catastrophically bad that it outweighs all the other glaring problems. It's like having a messing room, but there's a dead animal in the center of the room. You don't mind the dirty sock on the couch as much when you discover that.

[KeilxKey]

Garlador wrote...

I think it says a lot that the ending is SO bad, it outshines nearly every other problem with the game. And there ARE problems with the game, from both story and game-driven mechanics.

But many of those problems weren't deal-breakers. I could enjoy the game in spite of these issues. Problems like the Mako in ME1 and mineral scanning in ME2 are just small bumps compared to enormous highs.

But ME3's ending is so catastrophically bad that it outweighs all the other glaring problems. It's like having a messing room, but there's a dead animal in the center of the room. You don't mind the dirty sock on the couch as much when you discover that.

Eh. If the ending was perfect, then you'd have a small group of people still whining about the rest of the game, while the majority of the forum would move on. 

the ending sucks, and I'm perfectly able to recognize the other issues. But I know, that even if the ending was great, those issues that bothered me wouldn't bring my opinion of the overall game down.

 It's sort of like, 

 Having a really nice living room with a plasma screen tv, and fancy furniture. Some of the paint is chipped, and some of the wood is cracked, but overall your pleased with everything. It's only when you decide to move the couch that you find your neighbors dead head. it ruins everything. 

 

[KeilxKey]

GodWood wrote...

KeilxKey wrote...

I thought the narrative was fine. This is my opinion and my opinion only.  Please don't question why I think so. 

OP, no offense but your starting to come off as one of these people;

Not at all. He's pointing out significant narrative flaws present in ME3's script.

Why is widescale hate allowed to be directed at the ****ty endings but not the rest of the ****ty plot?

Because the majority hates the ending, thus widescale hate is allowed. A minority hate the plot, thus not allowed.

 Seriously, I liked the plot for what it is. If you think it's ****ty than more power to ya!

[KeilxKey]

PDesign wrote...

Sheoro wrote...

3/4 of ME1's staff wasn't involved in ME3:

http://www.abload.de...3staff1uk9b.jpg

Oh, i see now
Im dun with you EaWare

Did you even look at those who left from the credits list?

Cinematic Director
Cinematic Animators
Lead Technical Animators
Technical Animators
Lead Character Artist
Character Artists
Concept Artists
Lead Level Artists
Level Artists
Lead Technical Artist
Technical Artists
Lead Visual Effects artist
Director Art Department
Audio Lead
Associate Audio Lead
Audio Designers
Lead Cinematic System Designers
Editors
Design Departmetn
Voice over direction

These are nothing but artists, audio techs, and voice over directors. 

I seriously doubt you LOVED mass effect 1 more than 2, or 3 simply because of it's audio, or it's level artist, or audio direction. LOL:lol::lol:

[mauro2222]

KeilxKey wrote...

PDesign wrote...

Sheoro wrote...

3/4 of ME1's staff wasn't involved in ME3:

http://www.abload.de...3staff1uk9b.jpg

Oh, i see now
Im dun with you EaWare

Did you even look at those who left from the credits list?

Cinematic Director
Cinematic Animators
Lead Technical Animators
Technical Animators
Lead Character Artist
Character Artists
Concept Artists
Lead Level Artists
Level Artists
Lead Technical Artist
Technical Artists
Lead Visual Effects artist
Director Art Department
Audio Lead
Associate Audio Lead
Audio Designers
Lead Cinematic System Designers
Editors
Design Departmetn
Voice over direction

These are nothing but artists, audio techs, and voice over directors. 

I seriously doubt you LOVED mass effect 1 more than 2, or 3 simply because of it's audio, or it's level artist, or audio direction. LOL:lol::lol:

The lead writer has to have some weight there 

[CARL_DF90]

You had some good points OP, and some of those I could not argue. Especially that very interesting pic you linked.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

 While the bad endings take all the heat and get beat to a bloody pulp, doesn't anyone notice how rushed and sub par the rest of the game was? Bad writing, auto dialogue, lack of dialogue options, plot holes, lack of old crew interaction, most ME2 characters get shoved to the side.........the list could go on and on forever. For me the ending wasn't the most dissapointing part of the game.......the game itself was. The endings would have been more forgiveable for me if the game had of been of better quality. What was the reason for the war assets apart from reaching a ''better'' ending? What happened to the choices I made throught the entire series? Am I the only one feeling this way? I don't want to sound harsh but the facts are the facts. Bioware has done an exceptional job up until now. What happened? 

[mauro2222]

Patrick Weekes said they run out of money. I blame MP.

[AlanC9]

Is it just me, or is this thread developing a severe WoT problem?

[CARL_DF90]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

 While the bad endings take all the heat and get beat to a bloody pulp, doesn't anyone notice how rushed and sub par the rest of the game was? Bad writing, auto dialogue, lack of dialogue options, plot holes, lack of old crew interaction, most ME2 characters get shoved to the side.........the list could go on and on forever. For me the ending wasn't the most dissapointing part of the game.......the game itself was. The endings would have been more forgiveable for me if the game had of been of better quality. What was the reason for the war assets apart from reaching a ''better'' ending? What happened to the choices I made throught the entire series? Am I the only one feeling this way? I don't want to sound harsh but the facts are the facts. Bioware has done an exceptional job up until now. What happened? 

EA is what happened.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

mauro2222 wrote...

Patrick Weekes said they run out of money. I blame MP.

MP was yet another way of catering to a ''broader'' fan base. In gaining a few new fans they loose some of their most loyal. It doesn't seem like a good trade to me.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

 While the bad endings take all the heat and get beat to a bloody pulp, doesn't anyone notice how rushed and sub par the rest of the game was? Bad writing, auto dialogue, lack of dialogue options, plot holes, lack of old crew interaction, most ME2 characters get shoved to the side.........the list could go on and on forever. For me the ending wasn't the most dissapointing part of the game.......the game itself was. The endings would have been more forgiveable for me if the game had of been of better quality. What was the reason for the war assets apart from reaching a ''better'' ending? What happened to the choices I made throught the entire series? Am I the only one feeling this way? I don't want to sound harsh but the facts are the facts. Bioware has done an exceptional job up until now. What happened? 

EA is what happened.

If you were once very healthy and suddenly a parasite attached itself to you and slowly drained your good health, naturally you would want to get rid of the parasite. EA is Bioware's parasite. 

[CARL_DF90]

Love the comparison. You've won some respect points from me my friend.

[OlympusMons423]

I loved very few games as much as I did this one. I also never got so sick over a ending, maybe because of the same reasons.

[mauro2222]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Patrick Weekes said they run out of money. I blame MP.

MP was yet another way of catering to a ''broader'' fan base. In gaining a few new fans they loose some of their most loyal. It doesn't seem like a good trade to me.

Money and personal that could have been used in SP.

[KeilxKey]

vvDRUCILLAvv wrote...

 While the bad endings take all the heat and get beat to a bloody pulp, doesn't anyone notice how rushed and sub par the rest of the game was? Bad writing, auto dialogue, lack of dialogue options, plot holes, lack of old crew interaction, most ME2 characters get shoved to the side.........the list could go on and on forever. For me the ending wasn't the most dissapointing part of the game.......the game itself was. The endings would have been more forgiveable for me if the game had of been of better quality. What was the reason for the war assets apart from reaching a ''better'' ending? What happened to the choices I made throught the entire series? Am I the only one feeling this way? I don't want to sound harsh but the facts are the facts. Bioware has done an exceptional job up until now. What happened? 

I found parts of the game to be rushed. But supbar? No, I thought it was exceptional. 

When people list all of these cons, it's strange. I ackowledge them, and I'm not oblivious to the issues you listed. If I hadn't played ME3, and you told me all these cons I doubt I would've even played ME3. Yet, the game itself managed to rise above all these cons...

It's weird to say this, but ME3 has this special "IT" that just makes it so enjoyable.

Personally, this has been my favorite Bioware game so far, even with 'dem ****ty endings. 

Modifié par KeilxKey, 16 avril 2012 - 05:36 .

[Noelemahc]

Sorry for replying so many pages after, but I was doing real-life things with the girlfriend, and couldn't answer when they were recent =) And I can't hold it in. Again, sorry.

Sheoro wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...
See above. You CAN call the idiots on it, sadly, it takes a lot of death on all sides until they finally stop.

It isn't just that but the fact they're becoming idiots RIGHT. AT. THE. WORST. TIME. Not one year earlier, not one year later, no, right at the events of ME3. I have the theory that the writers had no idea what to write so they made the player solve both major ancient problems (Krogans and Quarians) in a row, and Quarians attacking Geth was the perfect plot device for that.

I still think that Rannoch, while set up in advance in ME2 (as someone already pointed out, it was pretty much clearly stated in Tali's mission), was made the way it was made to add at least SOME variety to the opposition. The major plotline missions go Fight Cerberus, Fight Reapers, Fight Cerbers, Fight Reapers, etc. The Geth on Rannoch were added to mix it up... somehow. Otherwise, the game's combat would be even MORE bland. than it already is.

AlanC9 wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...
The Crucible is established in advance, but with an unknown function<...>

True. But OTOH, Bio was pretty good about letting us know that something .... weird ... was going to happen when you actually activated the Crucible.

Yes, but not in a million years would you expect a Deus Ex Machina, or, as some prefer, Diabolus Ex Machina. The only clear indication of what the Catalyst is that we get in advance, and totally not referring to the actual Catalyst, are in the words of Vendetta. And hell, until the final talk with him/her/it, you don't even get plotholes in its suppositions (one might argue that it's foreshadowing the Cuttlefish Avatar*, but one might also argue that it's so vague and nonspecific that it might as well mean that Dr. Manuel from ME1 and ME2 Firewalker DLC was right and it's simply someone pulling a Ten Little Negroes on the whole galaxy -- didn't have to be related to the Reapers AT ALL, or could be Harbinger, or some hitherto unseen alien race (Blake's Seven did it, Farscape did it, and they both did it very very well), it certainly didn't have to BE the Cuttlefish Avatar).
____________
* - Cuttlefish Avatar is my proposed resolution to the Starchild Debacle. Making that VI/AI/Whatever look like a holo of the original race on whose appearance the Reapers were based would alleviate approximately 37% of the ending's problems. Because not slapping a human face on alien logic makes that alien logic more palatable. Compare and contrast you discussions with The Thorian and the Rachni Queen in ME1.

IanPolaris wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...
<...> Daro'Xen will reveal that, being the Quarian equivalent of Tesla, Mengele and Einstein combined,<...> She's actually a very terrible person if you listen to her long enough, and it's clear that Tali hates her with every fibre of her being. Just sayin'.

That is because Tali Zorah is an excellent judge of character.  Admiral Daro'Xen is EVIL.  Full stop evil. She is also brilliant and unfortunately even for my paragon Shep, Admiral Xen is simply too useful and too brilliant to do without. 

Let's be honest with ourselves, if she was voiced by someone other than Claudia Black, people would hate her guts more violently. She's Space Morrigan in many respects - she does, says and thinks unpleasant things, but she also does all that because sometimes you NEED someone who can do all that. It's up to you and your RP experience to decide whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. I mean, I've even seen rather... tasteful Rule 34 of her, and she's an obscenely minor character in the large scheme of things. (That said, of all the minor characters, Councilor Tevos gets more Rule 34 than some of Shep's squaddies, but I digress)

Fireblader70 wrote...
OP, this is a dramatic space opera, not a detailed historical account of the galaxy. It was either find a superweapon device, defeat the Reapers conventionally, or die. The first option gives a higher chance of survival. Yes, it could be seen as a cheap way out, but there you go.
What would you have preferred instead?

 
As our dear friends @ TVTropes remind us, the first two Mass Effects were a carefully crafted REconstruction of the Space Opera genre. That's as high-brow as it can possibly get without being delivered entirely in iambic pentameter. Unfortunately, ME3 focused more on the deconstruction (i.e. following concepts shown to their darkest, worstest, chilliest consequences) than on the reconstruction (i.e. following them further until you find the good among the bad). It is, ultimately, obscenely depressing overall. Sure, it's war, but one way or another, it's a war that we DO win (unless we lose), and it's kinda sad that Arrival's "you have LOST" ending cutscene carries more closure than all of ME3's "you have won" cutscenes put together.

End of thread hop =)

Modifié par Noelemahc, 16 avril 2012 - 05:39 .

[Nightdragon8]

I thought EDI always had a sense of humor... her playing with the chair, "poking at him" improves his job performance.

honestly its like Alice in wonderland, if you read that story or even watched it, it was a decent story... but lets say that at the end Alice gets her head chopped off... everyone will remember the ending, alot more than the rest of the story.

Not really sure what you mean by the issue with Garis was.... He always seemed uptight, and later on seems to be more of a friend, I mean you rescue him out of nowhere, and he was still brooding over about how his team died. After the loyalty mission he does seem to ease up, even talks about "Working out the stress" on Turan ships.

Also, while you say that it went back into convectional warfare. Really if you think about it, Sovereign wasn't out in the battle field too long, it B-lined straight into the citidel. while it was closing. Also ships where not just aiming at it either, they where attacking the other geth ships. it was only after they opened the citidel they all aimed at the Reaper.

Tho I do agree how Korgan with guns attacking a ship how is there going to be any real difference... although if you have the Krogen defending groudn implacements for alitlry and what not then maybe it would help.

As for the Quarians yea they had ships that has been with them for 300 years, more than likly those are the ones that are barily holding together. That doesn't mean that the Quarins never got newer ships. And I wouldn't doubt that they use the older ships to live in while keep the newer ones for defense. Also they armed there biggers ships, so then every ship can be a warship. They have the "Biggest" Fleet in the galaxy.

OP didn't seem to read the posts where we called it a "Dues Ex Machina" try looking it up, and guess what you will find..

I just find it funny that, that in the news and stuff they said, "there wont be a "off" switch" my question is, Then what do you call the Crucible?

the main point I'm trying to make is that, we are willing to let it slide, it was a fun game, then the ending happened, and now its like meh. For an Action/RPG it was well made. ME3 let the rpg element slide more, towards the realm of DA2. sorry I liked being able to talk to my compaions in the middle of nowhere. and even smooching them and getting an reaction from everyone in group.

[CARL_DF90]

@ Nightdragon8

You bring up some good points. Well done my friend.

[ElementL09]

The game overall, while different and similar from ME1 and ME2, was great - besides the ending.