514 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

Emzamination wrote...

kbct wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

You should post your graph here

This graph?

-snip-

no

Nope indeed, no source given, only source which tracks week by week data for both those titles I have seen which can be compared shows that graph as wrong. The same source must be used for like to like comparissions. For example he cannot and shoul not go using one source say VGC and then followed by second source NPD. If does so he loses all credibility in his results aka the graph.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 avril 2012 - 06:04 .

[Midz]

kbct wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

XTR3M3 wrote...

I am willing to be most of the people who gave out those perfect scores either did so after only playing either the demo or a small part of the game. I bet if they were truthful and were asked "did you play it all the way through including the ending", their answers would start out with "well, no but....."

That is a speculation and assupmption with no basis to justify your own anger. What is our community coming to these days?

I heard a significant percentage of the perfect reviews didn't even mention the ending.

I heard a significant number of 0 fan reviews had never played  the game .I even came across 2 or 3  who on another forum who eventually  said  they  did for ther Lulz.

Morale  all internet claims polls  numbers etc are   significant in their insignificance  mine included.

[kbct]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Nope indeed, no source given, only source which tracks week by week data for both those titles I have seen which can be compared shows that graph as wrong.

http://social.biowar...5954/5#11419141

The source is VGC. Did you see that VGC revised down global sales by 460K for the month of March?

[Tirranek]

Emzamination wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

RACDB wrote...

EW may have provided the soap but the whiners sure know how to work up the lather.

What their PR dept is doing is insulting to the fans, the very people Bioware makes money from. So they can expect plenty of lather.

You mean the fans that are already screaming about boycotts, who have already stated that they will NEVER buy anything from BioWare or EA again, who are doing everything they can to try and get BioWare shut down as a company?

BioWare's insulting those fans?

Good.

Those fans still bought the game dude, and many others who have expressed intelligent criticism only to be met with more spin. Cause you know, the only thing wrong with the ending is that some fans need more closure. 

I think it's worth noting that the devs of DX3 came right out and apologized for the poor boss fights, even listing reasons for why they turned out that way. Bioware has never done something like this. All they do is misdirect and make excuses. There isn't an ounce of humility.

Those fans also had receipts if the game didn't meet their expectations but chose not to use them and instead throw more money at bioware's gate, Bioware is not at fault. The dev and writers at bioware have organic brains of their own just like you do and not only have the right to differ in opinion from you but take pride in their own creations as well, Bioware is not at fault.

While I do think Bioware dun goofed with certain parts of this game, certain major parts, I agree that many fan responses haven't exactly been a shining example of sanity.

[AkiKishi]

Midz wrote...

I heard a significant number of 0 fan reviews had never played  the game .I even came across 2 or 3  who on another forum who eventually  said  they  did for ther Lulz.

Morale  all internet claims polls  numbers etc are   significant in their insignificance  mine included.

There is a difference between someone doing thier job and someone with extra free time.

[Dragoonlordz]

kbct wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Nope indeed, no source given, only source which tracks week by week data for both those titles I have seen which can be compared shows that graph as wrong.

http://social.biowar...5954/5#11419141

The source is VGC. Did you see that VGC revised down global sales by 460K for the month of March?

I have VGC up on screen right now with both titles listed and the numbers do not match your graph.

The scale seems off.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 avril 2012 - 06:08 .

[kbct]

Midz wrote...

kbct wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

XTR3M3 wrote...

I am willing to be most of the people who gave out those perfect scores either did so after only playing either the demo or a small part of the game. I bet if they were truthful and were asked "did you play it all the way through including the ending", their answers would start out with "well, no but....."

That is a speculation and assupmption with no basis to justify your own anger. What is our community coming to these days?

I heard a significant percentage of the perfect reviews didn't even mention the ending.

I heard a significant number of 0 fan reviews had never played  the game .I even came across 2 or 3  who on another forum who eventually  said  they  did for ther Lulz.

Morale  all internet claims polls  numbers etc are   significant in their insignificance  mine included.

I'm talking about the 75 professional perfect reviews. I hope all of them mentioned the ending since the ad said the conclusion to ME3 provided a biggest fan reaction in gaming history.

[Gatt9]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

A smart business man can turn almost anything around to their advantage, it was clever, a smart move and whoever came up with it would have certainly earned their pay check this month. EA's agenda is to make money despite some who are unhappy. Members here many of them who are against it have their own agenda of damaging sales despite it selling well overall. EA are not going to switch their agenda with yours.

Like I said before, no smart business man goes and tells potential new customers that a group hated their products (none who wish to stay in business). They either do not bring it up or they put a positive spin on it like here but remaining within the framework of being honest. The image and description within it are accurate even if meaning spinning around the situation to positive instead of negative.

As also stated before I am beginning to question the emotional maturity of those who are still venting and outraged after a month about the last 10 minutes of a video game even if the previous two were great and most of the third was also good, it is still just a video game.

1. Selling just 1.3 million units out of 3.8 million shipped isn't "Selling well over all".  Selling only 34% of what you thought you would is widely regarded as a disaster.

2.  You're certainly earning your paycheck aren't you?  The only time you pop up is when EA has a fire to put out.  Origin,  Endings,  FTC,  and now this.  Every time you pop up,  it's to defend some major gaffe EA made,  and try your best to derail the thread.

First you do what you're doing here,  toss out some thinly veiled insults,  then when someone takes the bait you'll start a dramatic "OMG you're all out to get me!" and flinging direct insults,  until you get the thread discussing EA's latest fire locked.

[UnstableMongoose]

Why shouldn't BW consider the fan reaction a good thing? It's simply an indicator of how excellent a series of games that they made.

There's no accounting for taste. BioWare has no reason to be ashamed that there were people who didn't like their ending to the franchise.

[AkiKishi]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

kbct wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Nope indeed, no source given, only source which tracks week by week data for both those titles I have seen which can be compared shows that graph as wrong.

http://social.biowar...5954/5#11419141

The source is VGC. Did you see that VGC revised down global sales by 460K for the month of March?

I have VGC up on screen right now with both titles listed and the numbers do not match your graph.

Is that the same screen that told you ME3 sold 5 copies on Amazon in 20 minutes then a bit later told it was 8 in 20 minutes?

[kbct]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I have VGC up on screen right now with both titles listed and the numbers do not match your graph.

The scale seems off.

http://www.vgchartz....s-effect-2/USA/

http://www.vgchartz....s-effect-3/USA/

[Dragoonlordz]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

kbct wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Nope indeed, no source given, only source which tracks week by week data for both those titles I have seen which can be compared shows that graph as wrong.

http://social.biowar...5954/5#11419141

The source is VGC. Did you see that VGC revised down global sales by 460K for the month of March?

I have VGC up on screen right now with both titles listed and the numbers do not match your graph.

Is that the same screen that told you ME3 sold 5 copies on Amazon in 20 minutes then a bit later told it was 8 in 20 minutes?

Heres some more data for you.

ME3 360 (Global)

10th March 2012  1,380,563   N/A        1,380,563
17th March 2012  293,078    -78.8%    1,673,641
24th March 2012  145,264    -50.4%    1,818,905
31st March 2012  101,514    -30.1%    1,920,419
07th April 2012     76,348       -24.8%    1,996,767

ME2 360 (Global)

30th January 2010     874,373     N/A        874,373
06th February 2010   242,740   -72.2%    1,117,113
13th February 2010   137,882   -43.2%    1,254,995
20th February 2010   76,225     -44.7%    1,331,220
27th February 2010   49,943     -34.5%    1,381,163

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 avril 2012 - 06:15 .

[Cainne Chapel]

Gatt9 wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

L00p wrote...

abaris wrote...

L00p wrote...

The best salesman are the one that actually talk truthfully, because people come back to that guy again and again.

While those slick MFs that try their best to fu.ck customers over, are left to fight for the scraps of new customers that still don't know about ther shady practices, until they have fu.cked him over so many times, leaving him no other option than to - you guessed it - seeing "our" salesman.

There has been a time when this was the case.

But now we're living in the corporate world and marketing has become just another way of ripping you a new one. And they're certainly not fighting over scraps. They're fighting over the proceeds of customer stupidity.

The best saleman is still the one being truthful.
What salesmen we *do* have today, is another matter, and I agree with your sentiments.

And here we are at the core of the issue: if people don't want to express their consumer rights just because the product is a game, thats a dangerous spiral towards a worse future for the little man in a corporate world.

Thank Cthulhu we have began to take back the industry from the criminals, indie devs starting making money for real now, through Steam and other channels, and with the funding of Wasteland 2, I believe we are seeing the start of something great, with the turning upside-down of the whole industry.

People always get the leaders they deserve, not calling a company out on bullsh!t "just because their product is a game" is certainly one way of making the little man worse off.

Honestly... as i've been a gamer for the last 25 years... i still have a hard time seeing the big companies as criminals.  Do I always agree with their practicies? Heck no, thats why I dont frequent some of them, I speak with my wallet.
I also dont like Wal-mart corporation, so I dont shop there... doesn't slow them down.. Also not a fan of Microsofts practices... but they're still kicking.

Bottom line is no matter how much you DISLIKE a company, if they have the right product at the right price... people will still frequent them and wont care in the long run.  Its sad but thats how consumers are.  Indie devs have always had a way to make money, the issue is though, as wide spread as gaming is, publshing and producing were cost prohibitive.

Its a lot like the underground music business. New guys ALWAYS have a hard time getting their stuff out there, they can and do and go on to do a lot, but theres a lot on the producing end that needs to be done thats not always easy to do for a small dev.

Thus thank god for kickstarters and internet.  Funny you mention steam though... I still know people who will NEVER trust valve or steam.

To each their own I guess *shrug*

I'd argue your comparisons aren't similiar in this instance.  Wallmart's policies hurt it's employees,  not the consumers.  Microsoft offers a fully functioning product with no hidden charges,  the criticism leveled against it is monopolistic,  which again is largely invisible to the consumers.

Publishers OTOH,  directly impact the consumer.  With hidden costs,  draconian DRM,  and the ability to completely determine what types of products are offered.

A similiar comparison would be if Hollywood started announcing that the only movies worth making are copies of Pirates of the Carribbean,  because it's pulled in billions and "How could a horror movie or a comedy hope to compete with that?".  Then,  the last 30 minutes of every movie would cost an extra $5.  DVDs and BluRay's would require a constant internet connection to watch,  and you could only watch it 5 times before the disc would become non-functional.

In fact,  some of these practices were tried,  and resoundingly rejected by the public.  DivX as pushed by Circuit City was just such a model for home viewing,  one Hollywood really wanted,  and one they knew better than to force.

The gaming industry doesn't get that.  They're not interested in trying to establish a healthy market,  they're interested in increasing revenues at any cost,  and they apparently believe Gamers are idiots incapable of thinking.

I mean honestly,  look at the PS3 version of Skyrim.  They knew it was broken on release,  they have so little respect for Gamers that they pushed it out the door,  ignored it,  and think people will buy their next game too.

Look at ME3,  a good chunk of what was stated about the game was false.  Gamers are upset,  and EA has so little concern they use them as PR.

I doubt gamers will continue to buy because a future game is the "Right product",  gamers have historically proven that they'll walk away from your company without thought if you keep handing them bad products.  Many studios over the years have ended up bankrupt that way.

exactly Gatt9 and thats the beauty of us gamers.  We HAVE to talk with our wallets!  Whether its EA/Bioware, Activison, Bethesda so on and so forth.

Simply complaining about stuff on a forum will do nothing, we MUST speak with our money. Thats why I only support games I believe in and DLC, additional items that I care to bother with.

IF EA/Bioware release enough bad products that no one wants, the market will even itself out and they'll go under or at least change their mix.   But we have tot ake the monetary stand and NOT spend the money.

Granted I dont frequent forums of games/companies I dont like to air my displeasure, as i find that a waste of my own personal time when I could be on forums for things I do enjoy... (like here...I love you guys).

But see you and i agree on that last subject 100%.

[Emzamination]

Tirranek wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

RACDB wrote...

EW may have provided the soap but the whiners sure know how to work up the lather.

What their PR dept is doing is insulting to the fans, the very people Bioware makes money from. So they can expect plenty of lather.

You mean the fans that are already screaming about boycotts, who have already stated that they will NEVER buy anything from BioWare or EA again, who are doing everything they can to try and get BioWare shut down as a company?

BioWare's insulting those fans?

Good.

Those fans still bought the game dude, and many others who have expressed intelligent criticism only to be met with more spin. Cause you know, the only thing wrong with the ending is that some fans need more closure. 

I think it's worth noting that the devs of DX3 came right out and apologized for the poor boss fights, even listing reasons for why they turned out that way. Bioware has never done something like this. All they do is misdirect and make excuses. There isn't an ounce of humility.

Those fans also had receipts if the game didn't meet their expectations but chose not to use them and instead throw more money at bioware's gate, Bioware is not at fault. The dev and writers at bioware have organic brains of their own just like you do and not only have the right to differ in opinion from you but take pride in their own creations as well, Bioware is not at fault.

While I do think Bioware dun goofed with certain parts of this game, certain major parts, I agree that many fan responses haven't exactly been a shining example of sanity.

You ain't kidding, some of those responses have made me shiver

[kbct]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Heres some more data for you.

Did you even read the chart title? I'm looking at the US data for comparison because it can be cross-checked with NPD data. All the global stuff is extrapolated.

Did you see that VGC revised down their North American data a few days after NPD estimates were released? Almost all the revisions were in North America. Hmm...

Why trust VGC data for global estimates? They just cut North American estimates by 20%!!!

Modifié par kbct, 15 avril 2012 - 06:20 .

[XTR3M3]

Emzamination wrote...


While I do think Bioware dun goofed with certain parts of this game, certain major parts, I agree that many fan responses haven't exactly been a shining example of sanity.

You ain't kidding, some of those responses have made me shiver

yep there are "take back" tools out there. some of the PR troll's and BioWare cheerleaders' responses make us shiver too. "Loyalty at all costs!" and "call your fanbase names like 'whiney' and 'entitled' because they think BioWare screwed up!" = stupid. There has been some stupid things said on both sides. "Sue BioWare!" and "report them to the BBB and FTC!" also = stupid.

Modifié par XTR3M3, 15 avril 2012 - 06:22 .

[Dragoonlordz]

kbct wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Heres some more data for you.

Did you even read the chart title? I'm looking at the US data for comparison because it can be cross-checked with NPD data. All the global stuff is extrapolated.

Did you see that VGC revised down their North American data a few days after NPD estimates were released? Almost all the revisions were in North America. Hmm...

Why trust VGC data for global estimates? They just cut North American estimates by 20%!!!

All data is extrapolated. Including the NPD data. Now were coming back around to who you personally trust more, and bound to crop up is your post which has some random internet anon saying he works in the industry yet without proof he does so.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 avril 2012 - 06:26 .

[kbct]

Gatt9 wrote...

1. Selling just 1.3 million units out of 3.8 million shipped isn't "Selling well over all".  Selling only 34% of what you thought you would is widely regarded as a disaster.

Check out this thread:

http://social.biowar...1150/1#11346013

I was trying to ask why everyone was happy about sold-in numbers instead of sold-through numbers and got accused by dragonlordz of being a pessimist.

The article then CHANGED the information because the sold-in numbers are useless in measuring sales. So, I wasn't being a pessimist. It was a legitimate question.

Too funny.

[Dragoonlordz]

Gatt9 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

A smart business man can turn almost anything around to their advantage, it was clever, a smart move and whoever came up with it would have certainly earned their pay check this month. EA's agenda is to make money despite some who are unhappy. Members here many of them who are against it have their own agenda of damaging sales despite it selling well overall. EA are not going to switch their agenda with yours.

Like I said before, no smart business man goes and tells potential new customers that a group hated their products (none who wish to stay in business). They either do not bring it up or they put a positive spin on it like here but remaining within the framework of being honest. The image and description within it are accurate even if meaning spinning around the situation to positive instead of negative.

As also stated before I am beginning to question the emotional maturity of those who are still venting and outraged after a month about the last 10 minutes of a video game even if the previous two were great and most of the third was also good, it is still just a video game.

1. Selling just 1.3 million units out of 3.8 million shipped isn't "Selling well over all".  Selling only 34% of what you thought you would is widely regarded as a disaster.

2.  You're certainly earning your paycheck aren't you?  The only time you pop up is when EA has a fire to put out.  Origin,  Endings,  FTC,  and now this.  Every time you pop up,  it's to defend some major gaffe EA made,  and try your best to derail the thread.

First you do what you're doing here,  toss out some thinly veiled insults,  then when someone takes the bait you'll start a dramatic "OMG you're all out to get me!" and flinging direct insults,  until you get the thread discussing EA's latest fire locked.

Incorrect. Selling well overall meaning compared to the previous title (total sales/units shipped). But nice attempt at spin yourself there.

Common sense in talking about FTC,endings, Origin does not mean incorrect position. Your also making the mistake of making false claims that I only pop up to defend EA, I have many times whether through DA2 or trial part of ME3 been negative towards a product only done so in far more reasonable way than RME members and ending haters are doing here.

Third element of your reply is nothing more than personal vs topic. Again derailing the discussion, something which you do so well. Yet project your position onto someone else to deflect criticism.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 avril 2012 - 06:34 .

[kbct]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

kbct wrote...

Why trust VGC data for global estimates? They just cut North American estimates by 20%!!!

All data is extrapolated. Including the NPD data. Now were coming back around to who you personally trust more, and bound to crop up is your post which has some random internet anon saying he works in the industry yet without proof he does so.

http://www.gamasutra...php?story=18919

"And the amount of concrete data available to VGChartz is low - as is freely admitted in a recent interview, VGChartz had 2-3% of the North American market as a sample at the time, whereas by estimate, NPD might have 60-65%."

"Firstly, Walton freely admits the numbers were based on zero actual data for the entire European market, just pure extrapolation."

Do you see the difference now?

Modifié par kbct, 15 avril 2012 - 06:37 .

[Dragoonlordz]

kbct wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

kbct wrote...

Why trust VGC data for global estimates? They just cut North American estimates by 20%!!!

All data is extrapolated. Including the NPD data. Now were coming back around to who you personally trust more, and bound to crop up is your post which has some random internet anon saying he works in the industry yet without proof he does so.

http://www.gamasutra...php?story=18919

"And the amount of concrete data available to VGChartz is low - as is freely admitted in a recent interview, VGChartz had 2-3% of the North American market as a sample at the time, whereas by estimate, NPD might have 60-65%."

"Firstly, Walton freely admits the numbers were based on zero actual data for the entire European market, just pure extrapolation."

Do you see the different now?

As in the article it was about a single title at the time. Not ME3.

Something of which you excluded to mention in your quote.

You have no data to say whether VGC now uses sample of 40%/65%/80% vs whatever NPD might have now being 65%/80% or 40%. You simply do not know.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 avril 2012 - 06:40 .

[Emzamination]

XTR3M3 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
You ain't kidding, some of those responses have made me shiver

yep there are "take back" tools out there. some of the PR troll's and BioWare cheerleaders' responses make us shiver too. "Loyalty at all costs!" and "call your fanbase names like 'whiney' and 'entitled' because they think BioWare screwed up!" = stupid. There has been some stupid things said on both sides. "Sue BioWare!" and "report them to the BBB and FTC!" also = stupid.

Silly XTR3M3, its "Loyalty until proven guilty" The loyalist must hold the line and combat the illogical rage with logical responses, not for ourselves but the young impressionable minds that frequent these forums.

P.s you forgot to mention "bio drone" and "Bio butt kisser". Tsk tsk tsk unbiased <_<

Modifié par Emzamination, 15 avril 2012 - 06:38 .

[kbct]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

As in the article it was about a single title at the time. Not ME3.

Something of which you excluded to mention in your quote.

It has to with methodology, not a particular game.

[Cainne Chapel]

KBCT you should know, at least for most people.

They'll adjust and spin the numbers to support their facts... we all do it. Heck I'm sure you're guilty of it too.

Sad part is we use the numbers only to aid in our arguments vs each other....we should all stop doing that I think, it serves us no purpose in the long run.

But on my side i'd go with NPD over VGC every time. But then even NPD can be off so *shrug*

[Dragoonlordz]

kbct wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

As in the article it was about a single title at the time. Not ME3.

Something of which you excluded to mention in your quote.

It has to with methodology, not a particular game.

As I also mentioned, in 2008 which your article quote is based on the sample size they used back then does not mean same sample size now.  You factually do not know how big either sample size is for 2012 for either of them in order to compare.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 15 avril 2012 - 06:47 .