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#301
InsaneAzrael

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Zix13 wrote...

Shep isn't killing for ****s and giggles. In all likelyhood, curing the genophage IS a huge mistake. Wrex is the only trustworthy krogan you encounter. Char seems pretty legit too, but he's dead and insignificant. Theres a difference between killing for the hell of it and killing for what one believe to be the greater good. Jack is in the first category, Shep (with maybe one optional exception) is in the second. 


Both are the product of conditioning mate. Shepard is just as conditioned as Jack was. Different motivations/conditions were used for each case. Bare this in mind. Whatever the likelihood, exterminating an entire race based on a limited amount of information and certain biases is genocide.

Mordin notes this in one condition. Shepard also kills the Thorian. Based on his own limited survival instincts coming in conflict with those of another. Quite literally a "kill or be killed" scenario. Jack may have done it out of inability to trust and being the only one she could rely on. Shepard did it because of his/her own motivations, and after all.. There are other humans. No matter how "special" a little snowflake s/he is..:whistle:

#302
DerberAuner

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goose2989 wrote...

Yes. Tali has arguably the most devoted following of Mass Effect fans, because of personality, beliefs, etc I mean, you don't even know what she looked like in the first two games, and fans ate her up. Miranda, however, has a great set of hooters and a great butt. Those are the things the casual gamer notices right away. I'm not implying their shallow, it's just guys being guys. I started with ME2, and I sure as hell noticed Miranda first. I stuck with Tali, but Miranda was the one that grabbed my attention before I knew either of their personalities 


never actually liked miranda that much, seemed arrogant, didnt like her face, her hooters seemed fake and frankly too big (personally i think femshep in me1 has perfect hooter size), her ass, well im not an ass guy.
also: she seemed like a bimbo to me (not that shes dumb, but she plays to her looks and that in my eyes qualifies a bimbo) and i dont really like bimbos.
not really sure if its inevitable for guys to prefer miranda, but i agree she easily grabs attention before tali.

little sidenote: as soon as i heard tali was romanceable in me2 i decided to redo me1 and let ash die, just because i liked tali so much.

#303
Zix13

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InsaneAzrael wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Shep isn't killing for ****s and giggles. In all likelyhood, curing the genophage IS a huge mistake. Wrex is the only trustworthy krogan you encounter. Char seems pretty legit too, but he's dead and insignificant. Theres a difference between killing for the hell of it and killing for what one believe to be the greater good. Jack is in the first category, Shep (with maybe one optional exception) is in the second. 


Both are the product of conditioning mate. Shepard is just as conditioned as Jack was. Different motivations/conditions were used for each case. Bare this in mind. Whatever the likelihood, exterminating an entire race based on a limited amount of information and certain biases is genocide.

Mordin notes this in one condition. Shepard also kills the Thorian. Based on his own limited survival instincts coming in conflict with those of another. Quite literally a "kill or be killed" scenario. Jack may have done it out of inability to trust and being the only one she could rely on. Shepard did it because of his/her own motivations, and after all.. There are other humans. No matter how "special" a little snowflake s/he is..:whistle:


Your reasoning is ridiculous.
Shepard is a soldier, Jack is a sociopath.
Shepard kills to accomplish a mission, Jack kills for the fun of it.
Shepard is sane, Jack is not.

Difference = True.

Modifié par Zix13, 15 avril 2012 - 10:38 .


#304
DirtySHISN0

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Reorte wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

She spends to much time trying to live up to her genetic engineering; while the issue of genetic enhancement is interesting, her 1 track record isnt. Which i think is why Liara is so selectly appealing to different people, she has an air of mysticism that sometimes comes across as innocence or inexperience - to some people this may seem boring. However If you actively seek out her dialogue even if not the love interest her character growth always has the chance to surprise you.

Liara, in ME1, felt like someone I could talk to. In 2 and 3 she started getting downright creepy.


I agree she does come across sometimes as disconnected, but personally ive attributed that to fact that she first described herself as not used to dealing with humans. While this may refer to her not picking up on meanings sometimes it may also explain the odd way she tries to convey them.

#305
wizardryforever

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Zix13 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I take it you haven't actually spoken to her, aside from the recruitment and loyalty missions, huh?

Did you ever bother to listen to her in ME3?

She isn't a serial killer, she's just angry and does whatever the hell she wants. She's killed people, but she doesn't make it a habit. She doesn't feel remorse for the people she kills (Most of the time the people she kills are scum anyway), but that doesn't automatically make her a horrible person, otherwise every single character in the entire franchise would be on the same level.


I take it you didn't talk to anyone on purgatory or watch her murder the disturbed guy on Pragia. She's a sociopath and enjoys killing people. You have a very selective memory. 

Purgatory was a slave-trading ring disguised as a prison, and some of the things that happened there were just horrendous.  Did you find Jack's "talk to" location on the Citadel?  It's in the club's bathroom, where she recounts being gang-raped on the Purgatory, and killing several attackers defending herself, but it wasn't enough.  They raped her anyway.  And let's not forget that Cerberus was conditioning her to attack whenever she felt threatened, and building her biotic abilities up to extreme levels.

As for Aresh, she actually doesn't kill him unless you egg her on.  It's a simple matter of saying "Jack, he's trapped in his past.  You need to move on from yours."  And presto, she lets him go.  Who's got the selective memory again?


I am fully aware that the purgatory was a slave trading ring. Regardless, it was filled with scumbags and the warden tells you Jack is the worst, despite having every reason to tell you she's perfectly stable. Then the other guy who was scared ****less of Jack and thought you were insane for letting her out, despite thinking you might want a few serial killers as well. Cool story about her being raped, guess that gives her an excuse to kill everyone she sees. derp. You have to talk her out of killing Aresh, she was going to do it if you said nothing. Cerberus conditioned her to enjoy killing. Once again, Aresh, not self defense.  

Having a ****ty past does not give you an excuse to be a serial killer. It's hardly like she ended up in purgatory by being a nice person. She was beyond redemption when you found her on Purgatory, her actions after that are hardly redeeming, especially in me2. 

You seem to have a skewed perception of what makes a serial killer.  A serial killer seeks out targets and kills them for whatever reason.  Jack never does that, only taking action in retaliation for serious things done to her.  Morinth is a serial killer, Jack is not.  She's a murderer sure, but not a serial killer.  And I do think that anyone else in her situation would have done the same thing.  We're a product of our upbringing, and have to work harder than most are willing to in order to overcome that.  If you push her more paragon in ME2, Jack tries to do that, hence letting Aresh go.  If you let her be, she stays the way she is.  Like she says "it's worked for me so far, and I'm not gonna change."

She doesn't kill everyone she sees.  Hell, if that were the case, don't you think Miranda would have been killed in her sleep?  Jack knows the meaning of restraint.  She doesn't wreak havoc for gits and shiggles, only when she feels the situation calls for it.

Jack is definitely a broken bird, and she's done some terrible things, but they pale in comparison to what has been done to her.  So most people give her a bit more leeway than they would someone with a relatively normal background, like Zaeed.  You obviously don't, and let's leave it at that.

#306
RyanPun1991

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ME1: Fist, Fai Deng
ME2: Racist Volus at the wards
ME3: Allers, Starkid, Kai Leng. Rupe Elkoss
Also, Jondum Bau = worst spectre in game? lol

#307
Argetfalcon

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I don't know why there is so much hate for Kai Leng. He was very fun to stab.

#308
PorcelynDoll

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Jack. Without a doubt. She uses an awful childhood as a crutch to behave in reprehensible way. I don't appreciate her attitude or language. I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt in ME3 but as soon as she punched Shep I went back into my me2 save and killed her off.

#309
teh DRUMPf!!

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People blaming Jack for having been a criminal are hilarious, because it ignores just about every other character's action.

Garrus tortured dudes at C-Sec, also vigilantism is not legal nor is it really more justified than a thug killing any other citizen.
Thane did it for a living.
Ditto Zaeed.
Ditto Wrex.
Kasumi steals valuables for a living.
Miranda works for a morally-questionable black ops group, Jacob too.
Shepard can douche-kill some NPCs
Grunt is a sick child.
Samara is a zealot who'll kill cops/civilians solely on the grounds of "they're in my way."
Mordin committed cultural genocide.
Who knows what Liara is up to as the Shadow Broker. Sure seemed pretty ruthless on Illium.

... Tali is about the only squeaky-clean person left. And either VS.

#310
InsaneAzrael

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Zix13 wrote...

Your reasoning is ridiculous.
Shepard is a soldier, Jack is a sociopath.
Shepard kills to accomplish a mission, Jack kills for the fun of it.
Shepard is sane, Jack is not.

Difference = True.


I think the motives are irrelevant in the face of the consequences. That does not make my reasoning ridiculous.
Whether sane or not.. Only one character has killed an entire species. Potentially 2 (through complacency) if you choose to continue the genophage. Debatably 5 (if you accept sentient synthetics as a lifeform) if you choose destroy.

You call my reasoning ridiculous, yet your reasoning implies that people = function vs. dysfunction.. Think about that.

#311
GABy GaBS

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Starchild certainly. Totally incoherent with the series story and key topics.
Kai Leng seemed cool and badass, but turned to be a dull ****.
Diana Allers and EDI were rather forgettable.
And I even though I love Tali and the evolution of her character was logical, given the pressures she now carries, her new attitude kind of let me down. Her romance subplot, also and except for some little bits, felt bland compared to Liara's and Ashley's.

#312
Zix13

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wizardryforever wrote...

Zix13 wrote...


I am fully aware that the purgatory was a slave trading ring. Regardless, it was filled with scumbags and the warden tells you Jack is the worst, despite having every reason to tell you she's perfectly stable. Then the other guy who was scared ****less of Jack and thought you were insane for letting her out, despite thinking you might want a few serial killers as well. Cool story about her being raped, guess that gives her an excuse to kill everyone she sees. derp. You have to talk her out of killing Aresh, she was going to do it if you said nothing. Cerberus conditioned her to enjoy killing. Once again, Aresh, not self defense.  

Having a ****ty past does not give you an excuse to be a serial killer. It's hardly like she ended up in purgatory by being a nice person. She was beyond redemption when you found her on Purgatory, her actions after that are hardly redeeming, especially in me2. 

You seem to have a skewed perception of what makes a serial killer.  A serial killer seeks out targets and kills them for whatever reason.  Jack never does that, only taking action in retaliation for serious things done to her.  Morinth is a serial killer, Jack is not.  She's a murderer sure, but not a serial killer.  And I do think that anyone else in her situation would have done the same thing.  We're a product of our upbringing, and have to work harder than most are willing to in order to overcome that.  If you push her more paragon in ME2, Jack tries to do that, hence letting Aresh go.  If you let her be, she stays the way she is.  Like she says "it's worked for me so far, and I'm not gonna change."


I used serial killer for lack of a better term. Habitual murderer? Repeated murderer? Killing hobbyist? Dunno. Regardless, she has not "Only killed in self defense", this is simply not the case. No, not anyone in her position would do the same thing. She choose to be a killer, she could have gone anywhere with her life she liked once she escaped cerberus. Was Aresh a -insert adjective here- murderer? Don't think so. And he had it worse than Jack. 

She doesn't kill everyone she sees.  Hell, if that were the case, don't you think Miranda would have been killed in her sleep?  Jack knows the meaning of restraint.  She doesn't wreak havoc for gits and shiggles, only when she feels the situation calls for it. 

You have to stop her from killing Miranda after Pragia. Hissy fit that would apparently lead to murder right there. Her idea of "when the situation calls for it" is obviously too liberal for any sane person to trust her enough to even allow her within 10 feet of them.  


Jack is definitely a broken bird, and she's done some terrible things, but they pale in comparison to what has been done to her.  So most people give her a bit more leeway than they would someone with a relatively normal background, like Zaeed.  You obviously don't, and let's leave it at that.

 

So Morinth is totally fine doing what she's doing? Her upbringing was definately more difficult to shake the "killer" from, since she was expected to be a killer by society, needed to by one to survive those attempting to kill her, and had a biological desire to do so. Jack couldn't get over her past and, for whatever reason, decided killing anyone who looked at her funny was the best way to deal with it. No. I don't give a damn what your background was, I judge by actions. She kills people for the hell of it thus she is beyond redemption, there is nothing sympathetic about her background, the fact that she pretends there is makes her that much more pathetic. And Zaeed? He's a merc, he kills scumbags for money, he kills people who deserve it and thats how he makes a living. Jack just does it for fun. 

#313
LeTtotheC

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Kei Lang, even more so than the Star Child. He was utterly pointless as an inclusion, with no build up within the game. I remember thinking "And I should care about this guy being a douche, because...?". It'd be Ok if he'd been an antagonist in the rest of the series, but he was utterly shoe horned in with his inclusion in ME3.

#314
Zix13

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InsaneAzrael wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Your reasoning is ridiculous.
Shepard is a soldier, Jack is a sociopath.
Shepard kills to accomplish a mission, Jack kills for the fun of it.
Shepard is sane, Jack is not.

Difference = True.


I think the motives are irrelevant in the face of the consequences. That does not make my reasoning ridiculous.
Whether sane or not.. Only one character has killed an entire species. Potentially 2 (through complacency) if you choose to continue the genophage. Debatably 5 (if you accept sentient synthetics as a lifeform) if you choose destroy.

You call my reasoning ridiculous, yet your reasoning implies that people = function vs. dysfunction.. Think about that.



I don't disagree that the choice at the end of the game was between three morally abhorrent options that my Shep would never agree to.

The genophage... 
If cured:
Krogan survive 
50+% chance they kill everyone else( be honest, curing the krogan is risky as ****)

If not:
Krogan continue as they are now, still don't go extinct
Everyone else lives as well. 

You paint the genophage like a black and white issue when it's not. By not curing the Genophage, Shep changes nothing. But curing it, he risks every except the Krogan.

So if Shep doesn't cure the genophage(does nothing) he is responsible for genocide.. Well ****. Conrad Verner didn't cure it either, guess he is responsible for genocide as well, what a dick. 

#315
KevTheGamer

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Diana Allers definately it seems like she was just rushed in at the last minute. I want to know what happened to Emily Wong. I think she was replaced with Diana,.

#316
wizardryforever

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

People blaming Jack for having been a criminal are hilarious, because it ignores just about every other character's action.

Garrus tortured dudes at C-Sec, also vigilantism is not legal nor is it really more justified than a thug killing any other citizen.
Thane did it for a living.
Ditto Zaeed.
Ditto Wrex.
Kasumi steals valuables for a living.
Miranda works for a morally-questionable black ops group, Jacob too.
Shepard can douche-kill some NPCs
Grunt is a sick child.
Samara is a zealot who'll kill cops/civilians solely on the grounds of "they're in my way."
Mordin committed cultural genocide.
Who knows what Liara is up to as the Shadow Broker. Sure seemed pretty ruthless on Illium.

... Tali is about the only squeaky-clean person left. And either VS.

Exactly, though even Tali covers up her father's horrific experiments on sentient beings.  Almost everyone in the series (especially ME2) have some dark part of their personality.  Jack just lets hers through.  If I may co-opt a line from the Breakfast Club "What's [reprehensible]?  I mean we're all pretty [reprehensible].  Some of us are just better at hiding it, that's all."  Though they use "bizarre," it fits.

Besides, renegade Shepard has done some pretty horrible things for some pretty horrible reasons too.  So measuring Jack by a different standard is hypocritical.

#317
StarGateGod

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Allers if she can even be considered a charecter. If not then Vega, Then edi and joker pair

#318
Zix13

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wizardryforever wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

People blaming Jack for having been a criminal are hilarious, because it ignores just about every other character's action.

Garrus tortured dudes at C-Sec, also vigilantism is not legal nor is it really more justified than a thug killing any other citizen.
Thane did it for a living.
Ditto Zaeed.
Ditto Wrex.
Kasumi steals valuables for a living.
Miranda works for a morally-questionable black ops group, Jacob too.
Shepard can douche-kill some NPCs
Grunt is a sick child.
Samara is a zealot who'll kill cops/civilians solely on the grounds of "they're in my way."
Mordin committed cultural genocide.
Who knows what Liara is up to as the Shadow Broker. Sure seemed pretty ruthless on Illium.

... Tali is about the only squeaky-clean person left. And either VS.

Exactly, though even Tali covers up her father's horrific experiments on sentient beings.  Almost everyone in the series (especially ME2) have some dark part of their personality.  Jack just lets hers through. 


Except Jack has no redeeming qualities to make up for it, and her motivations weren't good or morally ambiguous. She kills because she can, not for any worthwhile goal or ideal. 

Modifié par Zix13, 15 avril 2012 - 11:10 .


#319
StarGateGod

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KevWestBeats.com wrote...

Diana Allers definately it seems like she was just rushed in at the last minute. I want to know what happened to Emily Wong. I think she was replaced with Diana,.

Emily wong died, she crashed skycar into a reaper on earth during the initial invasionImage IPB

#320
ananna21

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At first It was the star child as soon as that brat walked up to shapard. But the real charectar i hate the most at the end of it all was Joker:?<_<<_<:sick::sick:. Just a few seconds of confusing footage and him smiling so smugly made me regard him the same way yahtzee view nathan drake permamently. Never will pick the synthesis ending for what he did.
I jsut straight up ignored allers and tottaly forgot about her by time the ending scenes rolled.

Modifié par ananna21, 15 avril 2012 - 11:16 .


#321
Vexille

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InsaneAzrael wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Your reasoning is ridiculous.
Shepard is a soldier, Jack is a sociopath.
Shepard kills to accomplish a mission, Jack kills for the fun of it.
Shepard is sane, Jack is not.

Difference = True.


I think the motives are irrelevant in the face of the consequences. That does not make my reasoning ridiculous.
Whether sane or not.. Only one character has killed an entire species. Potentially 2 (through complacency) if you choose to continue the genophage. Debatably 5 (if you accept sentient synthetics as a lifeform) if you choose destroy.

You call my reasoning ridiculous, yet your reasoning implies that people = function vs. dysfunction.. Think about that.



actually... that DOES make your reasoning ridiculous

#322
troyk2027

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Allers has HORRID voice acting, and really doesn't have a purpose, I'm also a bit annoyed that time was spent modeling her face when a squad-mate from all three games got a picture of Miss England colored purple with two fingers poorly photoshopped out.

Kai Leng is also terrible, see my other posts for why, don't want to go on another rant.

And then there's starkid, see literally any thread for why, no need to rant again.

Modifié par troyk2027, 15 avril 2012 - 11:19 .


#323
Vexille

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Zix13 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

People blaming Jack for having been a criminal are hilarious, because it ignores just about every other character's action.

Garrus tortured dudes at C-Sec, also vigilantism is not legal nor is it really more justified than a thug killing any other citizen.
Thane did it for a living.
Ditto Zaeed.
Ditto Wrex.
Kasumi steals valuables for a living.
Miranda works for a morally-questionable black ops group, Jacob too.
Shepard can douche-kill some NPCs
Grunt is a sick child.
Samara is a zealot who'll kill cops/civilians solely on the grounds of "they're in my way."
Mordin committed cultural genocide.
Who knows what Liara is up to as the Shadow Broker. Sure seemed pretty ruthless on Illium.

... Tali is about the only squeaky-clean person left. And either VS.

Exactly, though even Tali covers up her father's horrific experiments on sentient beings.  Almost everyone in the series (especially ME2) have some dark part of their personality.  Jack just lets hers through. 


Except Jack has no redeeming qualities to make up for it, and her motivations weren't good or morally ambiguous. She kills because she can, not for any worthwhile goal or ideal. 


exactly. She IS crazy, she kills and she shows no remorse... in ME2 she gives 0 signs that she is anything other then a lunatic

#324
InsaneAzrael

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Vexille wrote...

actually... that DOES make your reasoning ridiculous


Go on...

#325
Zix13

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InsaneAzrael wrote...

Vexille wrote...

actually... that DOES make your reasoning ridiculous


Go on...


Killing a man because he attacks you while you are trying to rescue a group of hostages is different that killing a man who just called you a **** in a bar. 

Letting an innocent die to save 10,000 innocents is different than just killing an innocent.

Need I continue?

Modifié par Zix13, 15 avril 2012 - 11:27 .