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Control Ending the best ending?


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#226
Meltemph

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We clearly see in control and synthesis that the Reapers cease their attack immediately, and withdraw from battle. We clearly see in synthesis that something has changed about organics by looking at Joker and the plant life on that planet he landed on. Those things are not speculative, they're right there in plain sight for us to see. Ignoring them won't make them go away.


Yes, but you dont know the implications beyond that they stopped. Before the endings actually happen, you have no reason to trust the catalyst or distrust it, it is an unknown. Just because you see the reapers stop doing something does not mean we know in detail what it means past the scenes. Again, most of everything is an unknown. The game's ending let a lot up to interpretation ON PURPOSE. It is like you are blatantly ignoring what the devs said about wanting people to find their own conclusion.

#227
Bill Casey

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Geneaux486 wrote...

That was my fault for not being clear enough.  I went back and edited the comment to explain why your comment was stupid, so now it's clearer.


I know what you meant, I'm intentionally changing the context because I have no respect for you...

#228
Geneaux486

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Meltemph wrote...

Yes, but you dont know the implications beyond that they stopped. Before the endings actually happen, you have no reason to trust the catalyst or distrust it, it is an unknown. Just because you see the reapers stop doing something does not mean we know in detail what it means past the scenes. Again, most of everything is an unknown. The game's ending let a lot up to interpretation ON PURPOSE. It is like you are blatantly ignoring what the devs said about wanting people to find their own conclusion.


No, it's not like I'm blatantly ignoring everything.  No, we don't know the long term implications.  What I'm arguing against is people's headcannon "the Reapers win and Shepard conforms to their will" bull**** whenever they try to claim it as fact.  It's not, plain and simple.  Certain aspects of the ending are factual.  That is not one of them.

I know what you meant, I'm intentionally changing the context because I have no respect for you...


I don't care.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 07:43 .


#229
Bill Casey

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Geneaux486 wrote...

The Catalyst shows up, explains why the Reapers do what they do, and explains how you activate the Crucible, which it admits it cannot do itself.  It doesn't do anything but explain things to you, so what exactly would you call it?


And you don't see the problem with this?
Really?

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 avril 2012 - 07:43 .


#230
rachellouise

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Do we know enough about the catalyst, to say he's taking that form? Maybe he is just light, and the 'form' is given t it by the viewer. Like, he could appear as steak to Kaidan..hmmm..talking steak..

#231
Cobra's_back

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I found this in another post. I really don't think there is a best choice. You are going to have to evaluate the pro and con yourself.

Allan Schumacher of BioWare wrote:

“The Catalyst doesn't even give any indication for what would motivate synthetics to do this, so any suppositions that the Catalyst is saying that the Geth want to destroy the Quarians is just an assumption.


What the Geth-Quarian conflict shows is that, at least right now, the Catalyst's assertion may not actually be correct. Shepard even acknowledges this doubt when he says "maybe" in response to the Catalyst stating that the peace won't last. As a game player, I was certainly skeptical as well. Especially given the Rannoch storyline. It's why I ended up choosing destroy, because I wanted the galaxy to determine their own fate rather than have Reaper intervention come in and muck it all up every fifty thousand years.”

The point here is that the gentlemen’s reasoning for his decision makes sense. There are other arguments that support the other two options. The best decision is the one you pick for your own reasoning.

#232
balance5050

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That kid lies...

#233
Geneaux486

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Bill Casey wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Catalyst shows up, explains why the Reapers do what they do, and explains how you activate the Crucible, which it admits it cannot do itself.  It doesn't do anything but explain things to you, so what exactly would you call it?


And you don't see the problem with this?
Really?


Oh I see the problem, you don't like what I'm saying, so you're trying to write it off.  That's why you aren't responding to my statement with anything other than a stupid question-answer.  I don't care how right you think you are, and I don't care whether or not you respect me.  Discuss this stuff with me or don't, but these passive-agressive little jabs of yours are gonna get real petty real quick.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 07:48 .


#234
KingZayd

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recentio wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

I don't care if the game rewards you for it, attempting to control all of the Reapers after everything you've seen and been through is the stupidest choice you can possibly make in all three games...

By far...

By far...


You just shot Anderson against your own will...
Just now...


This. How can anyone really trust controlling them?


Because what you saw before was the Illusive Man being indoctrinated and using Reaper tech to mess up everything, not any sort of control of the Reapers.  Apples and oranges.


I think Shepard can successfully control the reapers where TIM can't because Shepard (paragon) has a good, selfless character while TIM has a flawed, selfish character. It's not that no one can control the reapers, only that no one with TIM's character flaws can control them without becoming evil. Even a very moral Shepard might eventually succumb to the lure of such power.

I imagined that mine used control to make the reapers retreat and destroy themselves -- ending the temptation and the reaper threat without killing the Geth.


But TIM isn't selfish. He genuinely considers himself a hero. He's more of a failed renegade, like Saren.
 

#235
Meltemph

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No, it's not like I'm blatantly ignoring everything. No, we don't know the long term implications. What I'm arguing against is people's headcannon "the Reapers win and Shepard conforms to their will" bull**** whenever they try to claim it as fact. It's not, plain and simple. Certain aspects of the ending are factual. That is not one of them.


Dont blame them, blame bioware for slamming it over and over again, that controlling the reapers was a bad idea. Blame them for trying to have us see TIM as a terrible person for "improving" humans.

If it wasnt for the ending obfuscating the philosophies previous to that point, there wouldnt have been a problem in the 1st place. Coupled with the crucible and what it can do, being insane, comes together for people to WANT to reject the idea of the ending because the way it is presented comes across as an asspull.

#236
rachellouise

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I don't think the kid lies. If he was, he could say "none of those will prevent the reapers, my way is the only option"

At this point, lying  wouldn't help him. People can make it to where he is; the crucible is complete and attatched etc.

Modifié par rachellouise, 15 avril 2012 - 07:50 .


#237
Bill Casey

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Geneaux486 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Catalyst shows up, explains why the Reapers do what they do, and explains how you activate the Crucible, which it admits it cannot do itself.  It doesn't do anything but explain things to you, so what exactly would you call it?


And you don't see the problem with this?
Really?


Oh I see the problem, you don't like what I'm saying, so you're trying to write it off.  That's why you aren't responding to my statement with anything other than a stupid question-answer.


So you see how making the creature that controls all of the reapers the expositional tool is really really stupid if you are taking the ending at face value...

#238
Geneaux486

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Meltemph wrote...




No, it's not like I'm blatantly ignoring everything. No, we don't know the long term implications. What I'm arguing against is people's headcannon "the Reapers win and Shepard conforms to their will" bull**** whenever they try to claim it as fact. It's not, plain and simple. Certain aspects of the ending are factual. That is not one of them.


Dont blame them, blame bioware for slamming it over and over again, that controlling the reapers was a bad idea. Blame them for trying to have us see TIM as a terrible person for "improving" humans.

If it wasnt for the ending obfuscating the philosophies previous to that point, there wouldnt have been a problem in the 1st place. Coupled with the crucible and what it can do, being insane, comes together for people to WANT to reject the idea of the ending because the way it is presented comes across as an asspull.


The Illusive Man trying to control the Reapers by manipulating Reaper technology is a bad idea.  The Crucible represents something notably different, as I've pointed out repeatedly.  You don't have to pick control, that depends on what kind of person your Shepard is, but to say that picking control somehow conforms to the Reaper's wishes or makes Shepard less heroic is simply a false statement.


So you see how making the creature that controls all of the reapers the expositional tool is really really stupid if you are taking the ending at face value...


I certainly don't think it was a good move to make the Catalyst an expositional tool.  The best I can say about it is that it's a relatively harmless move.  We didn't know there was a master AI beforehand, once we realise it, it's already on the brink of its defeat because of the Crucible, honestly it just kinda rolled off my back.  If it wasn't the Catalyst it would have just been something else needed to explain how to activate the Crucible once and for all.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 07:53 .


#239
Cobra's_back

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Quietness wrote...

The kid says "you will lose all that you have"

This reeks heavily of "Wait till the next cycle, you'll be ready to take up the cause" All that you have as in Body?Soul?That fire that makes Shepard who Shepard is?Sense of Reasoning? Sanity?



I also could not trust this Star Child.

#240
Meltemph

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The Illusive Man trying to control the Reapers by manipulating Reaper technology is a bad idea. The Crucible represents something notably different, as I've pointed out repeatedly. You don't have to pick control, that depends on what kind of person your Shepard is, but to say that picking control somehow conforms to the Reaper's wishes or makes Shepard less heroic is simply a false statement.


It is not a false statement, it is a guess, based on everything we were taught prior. The only reason you are so willing to accept it is because you accept everything the magic does and achieves, because you see the reapers fly up. Which obviously, with no exposition, means what you thought happened, happened, because clearly the ending wasn't designed to have people speculate...

#241
IanPolaris

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Geneaux486 wrote...

The Illusive Man trying to control the Reapers by manipulating Reaper technology is a bad idea.  The Crucible represents something notably different, as I've pointed out repeatedly.  You don't have to pick control, that depends on what kind of person your Shepard is, but to say that picking control somehow conforms to the Reaper's wishes or makes Shepard less heroic is simply a false statement.


You do realize that at it's heart, the Crucible IS reaper tech, right?

-Polaris

#242
Cobra's_back

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Geneaux486 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...




No, it's not like I'm blatantly ignoring everything. No, we don't know the long term implications. What I'm arguing against is people's headcannon "the Reapers win and Shepard conforms to their will" bull**** whenever they try to claim it as fact. It's not, plain and simple. Certain aspects of the ending are factual. That is not one of them.


Dont blame them, blame bioware for slamming it over and over again, that controlling the reapers was a bad idea. Blame them for trying to have us see TIM as a terrible person for "improving" humans.

If it wasnt for the ending obfuscating the philosophies previous to that point, there wouldnt have been a problem in the 1st place. Coupled with the crucible and what it can do, being insane, comes together for people to WANT to reject the idea of the ending because the way it is presented comes across as an asspull.


The Illusive Man trying to control the Reapers by manipulating Reaper technology is a bad idea.  The Crucible represents something notably different, as I've pointed out repeatedly.  You don't have to pick control, that depends on what kind of person your Shepard is, but to say that picking control somehow conforms to the Reaper's wishes or makes Shepard less heroic is simply a false statement.


So you see how making the creature that controls all of the reapers the expositional tool is really really stupid if you are taking the ending at face value...


I certainly don't think it was a good move to make the Catalyst an expositional tool.  The best I can say about it is that it's a relatively harmless move.  We didn't know there was a master AI beforehand, once we realise it, it's already on the brink of its defeat because of the Crucible, honestly it just kinda rolled off my back.


Also, as long as you trust every thing he said. Which has nothing to do with TIM or indoctrination. Many took issue with his comments and decided to come to their own conclusions.

#243
Geneaux486

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Meltemph wrote...





The Illusive Man trying to control the Reapers by manipulating Reaper technology is a bad idea. The Crucible represents something notably different, as I've pointed out repeatedly. You don't have to pick control, that depends on what kind of person your Shepard is, but to say that picking control somehow conforms to the Reaper's wishes or makes Shepard less heroic is simply a false statement.


It is not a false statement, it is a guess, based on everything we were taught prior. The only reason you are so willing to accept it is because you accept everything the magic does and achieves, because you see the reapers fly up. Which obviously, with no exposition, means what you thought happened, happened, because clearly the ending wasn't designed to have people speculate...


Well let's see, the Crucible was designed by organics to stop the Reapers, we just don't know how it will do it.  The Catalyst tells you all the different ways to activate the Crucible (which, again, is your weapon, not the Catalyst's), including the method that kills it and the other Reapers.  If you pick control, as Shepard dies, an energy pulse is emitted that causes the Reapers to immediately cease all attack and leave the battlefield.  That is what we know for sure.  I do not think the Illusive Man's distinctly different and completely crazy means for control being wrong is enough to stack against the aforementioned visuals.  It's not counter-evidence, plain and simple.



You do realize that at it's heart, the Crucible IS reaper tech, right?


The thing that's designed by organic civilizations, built by organics, plugged into the Citadel by organics, completely changed the Catalyst's mind, and was activated by an organic?  Why would you think that's Reaper tech?

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 08:00 .


#244
Meltemph

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Well let's see, the Crucible was designed by organics to stop the Reapers, we just don't know how it will do it. The Catalyst tells you all the different ways to activate the Crucible (which, again, is your weapon, not the Catalyst's), including the method that kills it and the other Reapers.


Apparently SOMEONE who designed it knew what it was going to do, that had to. A little odd that the 3 beams fit incredibly well with the starchilds philosophy. Also, as for TIM, sounds like the had a pretty god damn good idea hwo to control the reapers, based on the ending.

The only difference is, lolindoctrinated, so please go kill yourself so you can control the reapers.  Since it isnt like according to Javik there wasn't someone else who thought like this, a little odd TIM thought the crucible and the citadel was crucial in doing this. So, no, TIM isnt crazy.

And again, if Shep isnt indoctrinated from the arrival artifact, then we cant take everything in the game at face value, and the fact that Shep doesn't die also shows we cant take the ending at face value, which puts into question ALL the endings.

It is not shocking the the least that the rejections of the endings as we know it AND the IT theory has sprouted up everywhere. And it is apparent from teh devs comments that they are fine with this, because it was left to speculate what really happened.

And yes what we know for sure is that the scene showed that they stopped attacking. That is it.

Modifié par Meltemph, 15 avril 2012 - 08:10 .


#245
Bill Casey

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Geneaux486 wrote...

I certainly don't think it was a good move to make the Catalyst an expositional tool.  The best I can say about it is that it's a relatively harmless move.  We didn't know there was a master AI beforehand, once we realise it, it's already on the brink of its defeat because of the Crucible, honestly it just kinda rolled off my back.  If it wasn't the Catalyst it would have just been something else needed to explain how to activate the Crucible once and for all.

It's not really harmless, because the Modus Operendi of Reapers is the deceptive manipulation of minds...
Reaper Master becoming your microsoft office assistant in your quest to undermine him is not something that should just roll off your back...

It should severely unsettle you...
Either something's rotten in Denmark, or the ending is broken...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 avril 2012 - 08:11 .


#246
Meltemph

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The thing that's designed by organic civilizations, built by organics, plugged into the Citadel by organics, completely changed the Catalyst's mind, and was activated by an organic? Why would you think that's Reaper tech?


Considering the crucible lets you indoctrinate the starbrat as well? Who knows.

#247
Geneaux486

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Apparently SOMEONE who designed it knew what it was going to do, that had to. A little odd that the 3 beams fit incredibly well with the starchilds philosophy. Also, as for TIM, sounds like the had a pretty god damn good idea hwo to control the reapers, based on the ending.

 
The Illusive Man poured uncontrollable Reaper tech into his body and got himself indoctrinated.  He didn't have a pretty damn good idea on how to do anything.  Furthermore, people keep saying the three endings fit with the Catalyst's philosophy.  They don't.  The Catalyst's philosophy was "We're needed so organics don't kill themselves with thier own technology."  It only had one philosophy before the Crucible was introduced to it.  After that, it was able to rethink itself.

The only difference is, lolindoctrinated, so please go kill yourself so you can control the reapers, sine it isnt like according to Javik there wasn't someone else who thought like this, a little odd TIM thought the crucible and the citadel was crucial in doing this. So, no, TIM isnt crazy.


The Illusive Man opposed Shepard every step of the way to gain control, and in the end control was impossible for him but possible for Shepard.  He was wrong, and he was crazy.

And again, if Shep isnt indoctrinated from the arrival artifact, then we cant take everything in the game at face value, and the fact that Shep doesn't die also shows we cant take the ending at face value, which puts into question ALL the endings.


And that's still not true.  The Catalyst does not say "You'll die" in destroy.  He says you are partly synthetic.  Partly.  And you can either die, or not.  Everything the Catalyst tells you will happen, does happen.  The reapers cease their attack, or they're killed, or synthesis, and the destruction of the mass relays happen the way the Catalyst says they will.

It is not shocking the the least that the rejections of the endings as we know it AND the IT theory has sprouted up everywhere. And it is apparent from teh devs comments that they are fine with this, because it was left to speculate what really happened.


The devs have also been clarifying several things.

And yes what we know for sure is that the scene showed that they stopped attacking. That is it.


And that's the last we see of them.

It's not really harmless, because the Modus Operendi of Reapers is the deceptive manipulation of minds...
Reaper Master becoming your microsoft office assistant in your quest to undermine him is not something that should just roll off your back...

It should severely unsettle you...


The Catalyst's task, above all else, is to preserve the existence of all organic life.  The Crucible introduced new means to do this, means the Catalyst probably deemed preferable because the Reapers were not only being resisted in the last few cycles, but the synthetic race they created was benign. 

#248
ClixWizard

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Control felt like the best of the terrible endings, even though it still doesn't make sense. How am I controlling the Reapers if I'm dead?

#249
Cobra's_back

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Bill Casey wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

I certainly don't think it was a good move to make the Catalyst an expositional tool.  The best I can say about it is that it's a relatively harmless move.  We didn't know there was a master AI beforehand, once we realise it, it's already on the brink of its defeat because of the Crucible, honestly it just kinda rolled off my back.  If it wasn't the Catalyst it would have just been something else needed to explain how to activate the Crucible once and for all.

It's not really harmless, because the Modus Operendi of Reapers is the deceptive manipulation of minds...
Reaper Master becoming your microsoft office assistant in your quest to undermine him is not something that should just roll off your back...

It should severely unsettle you...
Either something's rotten in Denmark, or the ending is broken...


make sense

#250
Cobra's_back

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ClixWizard wrote...

Control felt like the best of the terrible endings, even though it still doesn't make sense. How am I controlling the Reapers if I'm dead?


and why do I trust or agree with everything Star Child said? Do I really think he is all knowing or that my best interest is his best interest?