315 réponses à ce sujet

[Geneaux486]

Dragoni89 wrote...
Because the Catalyst is a reaper...
Why would you even start trusting the thing you been fighting for this entire time?
Because if the Reaper logic is wrong, than everything the Catalyst belieaves comes in to question.
When he tell you the three solutions to the alll synthetics kill organics. He is wrong about that statement. Why would you need those 3 solutions? If there is no probelm why would there be need of soultions.

Okay, I'm trying to make sense of this post.  I *think* what you're asking me is why the three solutions are necesarry when the Catalyst is wrong about synthetics killing organics.  If that is what you're asking, then the answer is they're not.  The three solutions are just three different ways to end the Reaper threat.  The Catalyst doesn't give them to you, the blueprints to the Crucible, which to the best of our knowlege is of organic design, do.  Furthermore, we do know that the pattern of synthetics rebelling against organics has continued for multiple observable cycles, according to Vendetta.  The Geth are anomalous in that they are the first known synthetic race to be peaceful instead of hostile.  The Catalyst's assertion that synthetics kill organics may very well have been true up until this current cycle.  We simply do not have enough information to know for sure.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 16 avril 2012 - 12:35 .

[Dragoni89]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Dragoni89 wrote...
Because the Catalyst is a reaper...
Why would you even start trusting the thing you been fighting for this entire time?
Because if the Reaper logic is wrong, than everything the Catalyst belieaves comes in to question.
When he tell you the three solutions to the alll synthetics kill organics. He is wrong about that statement. Why would you need those 3 solutions? If there is no probelm why would there be need of soultions.

Okay, I'm trying to make sense of this.  I *think* what you're asking me is why the three solutions are necesarry when the Catalyst is wrong about synthetics killing organics.  If that is what you're asking, then the answer is they're not.  The three solutions are just three different ways to end the Reaper threat.  The Catalyst doesn't give them to you, the blueprints to the Crucible, which to the best of our knowlege is or organic design, do.

Again on the Geth situation. The catalyst did not even give other civilization a chance before they harvested. The only pure evidence we have is the Geth. Basing on what we know the catalyst is wrong, this means very likely he was wrong about other cycles. Yes this cycle was only one to get to this point. Did you forget this cycle was only cycle were the cidatel was in oragnics control? Other cycle were not given a chance because the cidatel would take at the start of reaper invasion. 

Because the catalyst cannot do it himself when he realizes he is wrong?
Did we forget the fact he controls the reapers?

But no one know what the crucible is meant to do. But a apparently catalyst know what it does and  what it is capable of. Is this not something only the creater of the design would know?

Modifié par Dragoni89, 16 avril 2012 - 12:40 .

[Geneaux486]

The catalyst did not even give other civilization a chance before they harvested.

This is not stated in the game anywhere.  In fact, we know that at least the Protheans were able to create a nice healthy synthetic race of killers that they were still at war with when the Reapers came.

Because the catalyst cannot do it himself when he realizes he is wrong?
Did we forget the fact he controls the reapers?

 
He can't activate the Crucible or actively call the Reapers off.  Though he seems to be the master AI, for whatever reason his direct control is extremely limited by the time you meet him.

But no one know what the crucible is meant to do. But a apparently catalyst know what it does and  what it is capable of. Is this not something only the creater of the design would know?

They know the Crucible will generate and unleash a massive amount of energy, just not how.  The Catalyst doesn't know anything about the Crucible until it's plugged into the Citadel, at which point it's connected to a part of him, so it makes sense that he would come to understand what it does.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 16 avril 2012 - 12:42 .

[Dragoni89]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Because the catalyst cannot do it himself when he realizes he is wrong?
Did we forget the fact he controls the reapers?

 
He can't activate the Crucible or actively call the Reapers off.  Though he seems to be the master AI, for whatever reason his direct control is extremely limited by the time you meet him.

But no one know what the crucible is meant to do. But a apparently catalyst know what it does and  what it is capable of. Is this not something only the creater of the design would know?

They know the Crucible will generate and unleash a massive amount of energy, just not how.  The Catalyst doesn't know anything about the Crucible until it's plugged into the Citadel, at which point it's connected to a part of him, so it makes sense that he would come to understand what it does.

Well than he does not control the reapers. How can you say you control something, when you can't even make it move. Would that not make it complete lie. I control reapers, but I can not do anything to them . In order to incoperate the cidatel in to the design  would mean that every nation before the invasion of the reapers. Must have studied  it extensively and understand its purpose. This would acatully mean they knew the reaper was coming and the cidatel is a mass relay. But obviously the humans were the first to be still in control of the cidatel. How can incoperate something into to design if you did not possess it anymore and you do not truly know what cidtel is. Bunch of question marks. One line "we do not know when it was incorperated" is like bsing.

Modifié par Dragoni89, 16 avril 2012 - 12:51 .

[soulprovider]

 best ending.........HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

there all bad all control shows you is the reapers finishing their work and leaving, the citadel survives yes but look for the victory fleet, in all three endings the victory fleet is nowhere to be found, but in all three endings you see parts of the victory fleet floating next to the citadel while the energy engulfs them and destroys them leaving the reapers untouched, same goes for destroy the reapers fall over but don't explode, I'd go with the indoctrination theory if it didn't seem like at every turn bioware is trying to squelch that idea.

[Kopikatsu]

To add to what Geneaux has been saying this entire time, every time an AI gets created (The one on the space station, EDI, Project Overlord, etc) it goes crazy and murders everyone in the general vicinity. Despite this being what happens EVERY SINGLE TIME an AI is created, people insist on creating more complex and more powerful AI for some reason.

It's entirely plausible that without direct intervention, this cycle would have doomed itself. It's worth mentioning that the Reapers weren't there to end the war between organics and synthetics, they were there to prevent such a thing from happening. The AI with the capability of wiping out all life probably hadn't been created by that point.

[KingZayd]

Geneaux486 wrote...

he doesn't simply tell you how. You see how, in your mind through Anderson/TIM animations. He's projecting this information into your mind. What else is he projecting? the results of your actions? maybe even the whole scene?

Projecting everything:  Possible?  Yes.  Likely?  I'd say no.  I'm of the opinion that if it were the result of indoctrination, we would not have seen anything beyond Shepard's death, but once we leave his or her perspective, we see the game from a neutral cinematic viewpoint, which is not a first in this series.  We also see ambushes and other things that Shepard cannot see, and are made aware of it before he or she is, at other points in the games.  It's the same way we, as the players, are able to see events taking place outside of Consensus while Shepard is still inside.  Our perspective disconnects from Shepard at various points in the narrative, and we see things as they are, not as Shepard sees them.  I believe that the ending cinematic is another such moment.

If it were the result of indoctrination, then that wasn't his real death, meaning he could still see that. The different persepectives are generally kept obviously distinct, not interlaced with one another. In  the ending cinematic, there are some fragments which are definitely from Shepard's mind: the images of Joker, Anderson and LI.

Geneaux486 wrote... 

So you're saying the Catalyst actually prefers the newer options? (I might believe that for synthesis). But at what point does the Catalyst change it's mind?

The Catalyst as he is presented to us views everything from a logical standpoint.  Not only have organics created a peaceful synthetic race, but now they've not only built a machine capable of destroying or enslaving the Reapers, or enhancing DNA on a galactic scale, but they've plugged it into the Citadel itself.  At this point the Catalyst probably judged that things needed to change.

But according to the catalyst, there's no such thing as a peaceful synthetic race where organics are concerned. IT WILL HAPPEN according to the catalyst. When Shepard says that we'd rather be left alone, the catalyst says "No. You can't". His philosophy hasn't changed.

Geneaux486 wrote... 

TIM told the reapers about the crucible. The reapers move it (screw you Shepard). The allied fleet comes to Earth. The reaper husks fight us (screw you Shepard.) as we take down the anti-air thing. We say our goodbyes to our friends, then fight towards the missile launcher thing and take down a reaper. the fighting is at it's fiercest here (screw you Shepard!) Then we get a lift to in front of the beam.. seems clear. cool. We start charging, and then the reapers including Harby come to stop us personally (SCREW YOU SHEPARD!) and blasts us. We wake up a bit later, and start shuffling towards the beam. Then 3 husks start running towards you (heh.. shepard). You kill them and keep moving. Then near the end a marauder turns up (uh.. shepard? please stop.). this is apparently the reaper's version of the citadel defence squad. don't know where they came from. 

Then we meet TIM who is indoctrinated. If you pick the renegade option in conversation he says  he needs you to believe him. If you don't believe him (which you don't because you don't get a choice to) he plans to shoot Anderson, then you. (unless you convince him to kill himself). Maybe the reaper controlling TIM wants to control you too, or maybe that's just his personality. Regardless, the catalyst still isn't on your side. Then you press a button and let the crucible dock, and then the catalyst respects humanity all of a sudden? seems to me, like a last ditch attempt to save itself and the reapers. Whatever, I don't buy it.

And if the Catalyst could directly issue orders to the Reapers, that would be a huge contradiction.  Clearly he cannot.  We don't know why he can't, but then, we don't know much else about him either.  He says he "controls" the Reapers, but that probably just means he was the one who programmed them to carry out the pattern.  We do know the Protheans altered the Citadel, that may very well be the reason why he no longer has direct control, but all we can do is speculate at that point.

Well then he's a liar. "I programmed the reapers a long time ago" means something entirely different to "I control the reapers". Some Quarian programmed the Geth who were involved in the Morning War, but he did not control them.

Geneaux486 wrote... 

He's able to figure out the three functions pretty easily, and the fact that you have synthetics in you (unless he's getting that from your mind or something. If he's probing your mind to get information that will affect your decision then, to me, that's yet another reason to distrust him.

He could just as easily scan Shepard's body and see that he's got some synthetic stuff in him.  Probably did the same thing for the Crucible.

that's exactly what i was thinking, but then the image of the child is definitely plucked from Shepard's mind, so there's still that. The thing is, if he knows how the crucible works, and the snythetics that Shepard may or may not happen, he should be able to work out if the synthetics will be affected, and how that will affect Shepard.

Geneaux486 wrote... 

But Sovereign spent thousands of years trying to find out what went wrong with citadel, and why it wasn't responding to his signal. Why can't the Catalyst tell Sovereign what the Protheans did if it can control the reapers? The only reason would be that it didn't know. If the Citadel is part of the Catalyst, then how did the Protheans change the Keepers without the Catalyst knowing?

Not to mention that the Catalyst controls the reapers, one of which has to wake up every so often to see if it's time for the harvest (hello Catalyst.. look at your own Citadel body), then send a signal to the keepers to open the relay that is on the Citadel. How is that not nonsenical?

First of all, the Protheans didn't alter the Keepers, they altered the Citadel so that it could no longer signal the Keepers to activate the relay.  I hadn't realized this myself until I replayed that part again last night.  Maybe it was the Protheans tampering that somehow rendered the Catalyst incapable of direct control, or perhaps the Catalyst has simply been dormant up until the point where the Crucible was hooked up to the Citadel.  The reason it isn't nonsensical is because while it is a question that needs answering, it is not an unanswerable question.

EDIT: And to address dormancy: why would it be dormant? are the reapers green all of a sudden? what's the purpose of controlling the reapers if you're going to be asleep until a device which isn't meant to be there is attached to you? 

Vigil: Yet they vowed to find some way to stop the Reapers from returning. A way to break the cycle forever.  And they knew the keepers were the key. The Keepers are controlled by the Citadel. Before each invasion, a signal is sent through the station compelling the keepers to activate the Citadel relay. After decades of feverish study, the scientists discovered a way to alter this signal. Using the Conduit they gained access to the Citadel and made the modifications. This time, when Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, the keepers ignored it.

and later on: But the keepers are no longer directly controlled by Sovereign or its ilk. They evolved so that they only respond to the signals emitted by the citadel itself.


OK so it seems as if you're right. But this just makes the whole sequence even more bizzare as Sovereign sends the signal to the Citadel, which sends a different signal to the keepers, who then open the relay. But then that just makes the whole sequence 1 step more bizzare, and means that the protheans basically hacked into the catalyst without knowing it was there. In fact I do remember correcting a pro-ender on this a couple of weeks back. That must be where i mixed them up.

So to summarise: the catalyst (whom the citadel is part of) controls Sovereign and makes it wake up every so often to see whether it's Harvest time. When it is, Sovereign sends a signal back to the Citadel (part of the catalyst) which then sends a signal to the keepers to activate the citadel relay (citadel and therefore part of the Catalyst). The Protheans stop the reapers temporarily, by sneaking onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and modifying the Citadel (part of the Catalyst). Now the Citadel can't signal the keepers, but it doesn't let Sovereign know, who spends thousands of years trying to figure out what's gone wrong. The Citadel doesn't even bother to call the other reapers it controls from dark space, making use of their FTL drives.

sounds ridiculous to me.

Modifié par KingZayd, 16 avril 2012 - 01:17 .

[DJBare]

Geneaux486 wrote...
He can't activate the Crucible or actively call the Reapers off.  Though he seems to be the master AI, for whatever reason his direct control is extremely limited by the time you meet him.

I had said something about this before, the crucible itself is limiting or preventing control, perhaps the crucible introduced a virus when it connected to the citadel, this is a good enough reason for the catalyst to start bluffing, he never directly tells you he's lost control, only that a new solution is needed, the crucible built by the races over many cycles introduces those solutions, but one of those solutions is a threat to the reapers, and only one, the other two favor the reapers survival.

[SirBob1613]

Lol controling the reapers so your ok with takeing humans, turians,slarians,krogans, etc turned into reapers and useing them has slaves. Do destory release them from hell 
                                                                                                          

Modifié par SirBob1613, 16 avril 2012 - 01:17 .

[KingZayd]

DJBare wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...
He can't activate the Crucible or actively call the Reapers off.  Though he seems to be the master AI, for whatever reason his direct control is extremely limited by the time you meet him.

I had said something about this before, the crucible itself is limiting or preventing control, perhaps the crucible introduced a virus when it connected to the citadel, this is a good enough reason for the catalyst to start bluffing, he never directly tells you he's lost control, only that a new solution is needed, the crucible built by the races over many cycles introduces those solutions, but one of those solutions is a threat to the reapers, and only one, the other two favor the reapers survival.

Why would the crucible have a virus to deal with an AI nobody knew was there in the first place?

[IanPolaris]

Geneaux486 wrote...
The thing that's designed by organic civilizations, built by organics, plugged into the Citadel by organics, completely changed the Catalyst's mind, and was activated by an organic?  Why would you think that's Reaper tech?

Yep.  In fact the Prothean VI pretty much confirms that the only technology powerful enough to destroy the Reapers IS Reaper Tech and the crucible has been designed and refined for multiple cycles possibly since the beginning (see Reapers).  It also depends AT IT"S HEART either the heart or brain of a human REAPER.

Yes, it is Reaper Tech.  Full stop.

-Polaris

[Geneaux486]

The heart or brain of the human Reaper powers to Cerberus base, not the Crucible. The Crucible is, as far as we know, purely of organic design, and built from scratch by organics of this cycle, so no, it is not Reaper tech. Furthermore, pretty much every Reaper that's been destroyed in the series so far (Sovereign, the Human Reaper, the destroyes) has notably been destroyed with non-reaper tech.

[IanPolaris]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The heart or brain of the human Reaper powers to Cerberus base, not the Crucible. The Crucible is, as far as we know, purely of organic design, and built from scratch by organics of this cycle, so no, it is not Reaper tech. Furthermore, pretty much every Reaper that's been destroyed in the series so far (Sovereign, the Human Reaper, the destroyes) has notably been destroyed with non-reaper tech.

You INCLUDE the Reaper Heart or Brain as part of the crucible.  Read your war assets.

-POlaris

[Geneaux486]

IanPolaris wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The heart or brain of the human Reaper powers to Cerberus base, not the Crucible. The Crucible is, as far as we know, purely of organic design, and built from scratch by organics of this cycle, so no, it is not Reaper tech. Furthermore, pretty much every Reaper that's been destroyed in the series so far (Sovereign, the Human Reaper, the destroyes) has notably been destroyed with non-reaper tech.

You INCLUDE the Reaper Heart or Brain as part of the crucible.  Read your war assets.

-POlaris

I suppose Kasumi and the Volus Bombing Fleet are also part of the Crucible as well.  Just because we secure something that could help us doesn't mean we'd just plug it into the Crucible, which by the way was pretty much done by the time we even went to the Cerberus base, missing only a "catalyst" at that point.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 17 avril 2012 - 09:02 .

[NoUserNameHere]

Geneaux486 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The heart or brain of the human Reaper powers to Cerberus base, not the Crucible. The Crucible is, as far as we know, purely of organic design, and built from scratch by organics of this cycle, so no, it is not Reaper tech. Furthermore, pretty much every Reaper that's been destroyed in the series so far (Sovereign, the Human Reaper, the destroyes) has notably been destroyed with non-reaper tech.

You INCLUDE the Reaper Heart or Brain as part of the crucible.  Read your war assets.

-POlaris

I suppose Kasumi and the Volus Bombing Fleet are also part of the Crucible as well.

There's no time left to build the Crucible after the Cerberus Base. It's not helping with construction, and it's power supply/computing  power has pretty obvious advantages. A simple process of elimination means... yeah, there's Reaper bits in the Crucible.

Let's go dig up its war asset description, shall we? This may take a moment...

edit: Reaper Heart:

After Commander Shepard destroyed the Collector base, Cerberus spent months picking through irradiated rubble for anything useful. The human proto-Reaper the Collectors were building lay in pieces. But its incomplete core survived. The power cell would have been capable of fueling a full-fledged Reaper. After studying the device, Cerberus modified it to fuel the Illusive Man's base. Alliance engineers believe they can use the core similarly to power the Crucible.
Retrieved from "http://masseffect.wi...Assets/Crucible"

They seem to leave the brain out of there, which is fortunate.

Modifié par NoUserNameHere, 17 avril 2012 - 09:06 .

[KevTheGamer]

I chose the control ending thinking about it again I wish I had chosen the destroy ending. It just makes more sense to me. I am not sure I am into the idea of indoctrination but if the catalyst is a true AI then he wants to preserve himself so control allows Shepard to be like him and again want to save himself not good. And synthesis is exactly what the Reapers were trying to achieve in the first place. I am hoping that the add ons to the endings make them seem more complete because in their current state they are just confusing. I don't like that I don't want a cliff hanger ending. I can accept Shepard dying I saw it coming but what about my other squadmats? Where is Liara, Garrus, Jack, Wrex, Jacob, Ashey, Tali? I want to know what happened to them and being marooned on a planet in the middle of no where doesn't tell me much of anything. Was it that same planet we visited on Jacobs loyalty mission in ME 2? Will it end with similar result? I wish there was a way to have a happier ending say for example Shepard draws breath after the destroy ending and his friends come and see him die and they have a funeral and talk about what happened to the worlds and races and most importantly my crew after the war. All I know for certain is that the Reapers have been stopped and that is not good enough. Great game and story until the catalyst is introduced and I think most people will agree with that.