315 réponses à ce sujet

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

[quote]Geneaux486 wrote...

[quote]Absolute power corrupts absolutely

Shepard now has the power to literally wipe out all galactic civilization forever. No one can have this power without abusing it, no matter how saintly they were when they started out. [/quote]

Assuming that Shepard continues to exist after the control ending, and his will is not simply imprinted onto the Reapers, Shepard is no longer human, and thus not guaranteed to be corrupted.

[quote]Asharad Hett wrote...

Control = TIM and can never be the best ending. Keeping the reapers around can never be the best ending. Destroying yourself whilst controlling your enemies is nonsensical. [/quote]

Not a fact.

[quote]You argue my twist of the information, when you turn around and do the exact same thing, I don't get it.[/quote]

Actually I go by the facts as they are presented in the game.

[quote]This is what is assumed from speculation, but that's the thing, no one can even make educates responses because we know so little from such a terrible ending.[/quote]

It's not speculation, it's a combination of what we see in the games and what the developers have said since.  The ending gives us plenty to work with in educated guesses and is not in the least bit terrible.

[quote]Dude, look at the universe, everything is revolved around the use of the mass relays, the entire civilzation is built around them. When they are destroyed, they are in trouble because no one has yet to find a way to create new ones, and then you have to go build another relay at the OTHER end so you have a place to come out of the relay jump.[/quote]

And as a developer pointed out, new means of travel come either from the leftover Reaper tech, or the reapers rebuilding the mass relays themselves.

[quote]And don't tell me "oh well they can use the reaper tech to build new ones!"

No, they can't. No one understands how they work, and not enough resources to fuel these projects since everyone is locked in the sol system.[/quote]

Incorrect.  There are reapers in every major system at the end of Mass Effect 3.  There are organics in every major system.  Oh and Bioware came out and said that yes they can afterward.  It's not speculation, it's simply what is.

[quote]Also, it's hard to repeat the pattern when every single synthetic/reaper is destroyed.[/quote]

I don't think you fully grasped what the pattern was.  The idea was that *organics* would create *synthetics* that would then rebel and try to wipe out organics.  The Geth represented an anomaly in that they were the first known race of synthetics that did not follow this pattern.  By wiping them out, some organic race down the line could possibly create new synthetics from square one, only with the expected result of rebellion.

[quote]Synthesis makes absolutely no sense, the galaxy is built on diversity, and we are all reduced to grey blobs of homogenization. Once again, no one can really get enough information to make an educated response because we know so little.[/quote]

Everyone is so quick to call "homogenization", but that's not stated anywhere in the game.  What is stated is that synthesis strengthens existing DNA.  It's probably still as diverse as it ever was, just stronger. 

[quote]I didn't want an open-ended ending filled to the brim with plotholes and more speculation.[/quote]

It's not nearly as open-ended, plothole ridden, or speculative as you seem to think.

[quote]Also, you can't control what already controls you.[/quote]

Which is why the Illusive Man couldn't do it while Shepard could.

[/quote]That goes against what we know from previous encounters of the reapers however, each reaper is an independent body. Yes they may follow each other but each must reach a consesnus to act. Plus have you seen what reaper tech does? Indoctrination, husks, general abominations, you really think Harbinger isn't going to seep his tendrils into you, make you come around to the rest of the reaper's way of thinking. They have been shown time and time again to be very good at that sort of thing.

[Bill Casey]

Javik talks about Protheans being split on whether they should Destroy or Control the Reapers, and they later found out the ones who wanted to Control the reapers were indoctrinated...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 avril 2012 - 08:00 .

[Geneaux486]

KingKhan03 wrote...
But what the game has told us from Mass Effect 1 is that we have to destroy the reapers they are evil and responsible for the death of trillions.

 
What ME1 told us was that the Reapers needed to be stopped.  Even in the final scene, Shepard doesn't say he'll destroy them, he says "we'll drive them back into Dark Space".  There's never only been one road ahead.  With an unknown enemy like the Reapers, there can't be.

Now in the end of Mass Effect 3 we get the "reaper creator" essentially telling us but wait! you can control them or merge synthetic and organic life! Why would I even consider this? The Reapers are responsible for so many deaths they need to be destroyed imo.

The Reapers were once their own organic races, forced into a situation they did not ask for or want.  Destroying them when there are alternative options won't bring back those that died.  Not saying it's the wrong choice, because I don't think there is a wrong choice.  You can control them, steer them in a better direction, you can strengthen all galactic DNA, or you can blow them the **** up and go home.  It really just comes down to each individual player.

you really think Harbinger isn't going to seep his tendrils into you, make you come around to the rest of the reaper's way of thinking. They have been shown time and time again to be very good at that sort of thing.

No, I don't think that will happen.  It's not the guaranteed outcome, it's not a stated possibility, I'd go as far as to say it's not even likely.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 08:02 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Bill Casey wrote...

Javik talks about Protheans being split on whether they should Destroy or Control the Reapers, and they later found out the ones who wanted to Control the reapers were indoctrinated...

MFW wasted potencial. 

[KingKhan03]

Geneaux486 wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...
But what the game has told us from Mass Effect 1 is that we have to destroy the reapers they are evil and responsible for the death of trillions.

 
What ME1 told us was that the Reapers needed to be stopped.  Even in the final scene, Shepard doesn't say he'll destroy them, he says "we'll drive them back into Dark Space".  There's never only been one road ahead.  With an unknown enemy like the Reapers, there can't be.

Now in the end of Mass Effect 3 we get the "reaper creator" essentially telling us but wait! you can control them or merge synthetic and organic life! Why would I even consider this? The Reapers are responsible for so many deaths they need to be destroyed imo.

The Reapers were once their own organic races, forced into a situation they did not ask for or want.  Destroying them when there are alternative options won't bring back those that died.  Not saying it's the wrong choice, because I don't think there is a wrong choice.  You can control them, steer them in a better direction, you can strengthen all galactic DNA, or you can blow them the **** up and go home.  It really just comes down to each individual player.

You know I was content with my choice of destroy until I saw the ending, I really hope that extended cut dlc does something to validate my choice I will be satisfied then I just want to see the fruits of my labour ya know?

[Dragoni89]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Dragoni89 wrote...

If you want to be the Illusive man. Which weirdly you fought the whole time *facepalm

The Illusive Man indoctrinated himself jamming Reaper tech into his body and was incapable of taking control.  Shepard succesfully took control without doing the horrible things TIM did.  How can you say they're similar?

Because through out the whole game is he is talking about we can control the reapers. And you been fighting against his ideology. We do not know he has been indocrinated until the end. So while being indocrinated, he desides we should control the reapers. When saren was indocrinated he pushed forward the idea for evolution with the machines, systhesis. Obviosuly this does not show that obviously sythesis and control are both what the reapers want.

Did you even play the game? To ask such a stupid quesition. Why was Sherpard fighting TIM? Cause he fully belieaved reapers cannot be controlled and there is no benifit to humanity? Did you also forget the ending scene showing a clip of TIM choosing to control the reapers.

Modifié par Dragoni89, 15 avril 2012 - 08:04 .

[Geneaux486]

KingKhan03 wrote...
You know I was content with my choice of destroy until I saw the ending, I really hope that extended cut dlc does something to validate my choice I will be satisfied then I just want to see the fruits of my labour ya know?

On that we fully agree.  I sincerely hope you do find something to like about the extended cut DLC.

Because through out the whole game is he is talking about we can control the reapers. And you been fighting against his ideology. We do not know he has been indocrinated until the end. So while being indocrinated, he desides we should control the reapers. When saren was indocrinated he pushed forward the noth for evolution with the machines, systhesis. Obviosuly this does not show that obviously sythesis and control are both what the reapers want.

 
But you have to consider, what the Illusive Man and Saren both wanted was impossible.  The Illusive Man could not have obtained control because he was indoctrinated.  He was playing into the Reaper's hands.  Saren would have never gotten what he wanted from the Reapers because the Reapers use organics for the same purpose regardless of whether or not they prove useful and cooperative.  These were illusions given by the Reapers.  Through the Crucible, which is not of Reaper origin, they became a reality.  That is the key difference.  Shepard obtains either of these ends without using Reaper tech, without being indoctrinated.

Did you even play the game? To ask such a stupid quesition. Why was Sherpard fighting TIM? Cause he fully belieaved reapers cannot be controlled and there is no benifit to humanity?

What stupid question did I ask?  And yes, Shepard did believe it was impossible.  That's why the Crucible was such a game-changer.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 08:08 .

[Talogrungi]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Your only source of information about the choices that you're asked to make is the creator of the Reapers; the entity responsible for incomprehensible suffering and death.

Personally, I'm not going to commit suicide just because this entity tells me it's a good idea.

And the actual source of those choices is a weapon that organics designed, built, and deployed.

Source is irrelevant; I wouldn't shoot myself in the head with an Elkoss Combine built pistol just 'cos the Reaper told me to do it either.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

Geneaux486 wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...
But what the game has told us from Mass Effect 1 is that we have to destroy the reapers they are evil and responsible for the death of trillions.

 
What ME1 told us was that the Reapers needed to be stopped.  Even in the final scene, Shepard doesn't say he'll destroy them, he says "we'll drive them back into Dark Space".  There's never only been one road ahead.  With an unknown enemy like the Reapers, there can't be.

Now in the end of Mass Effect 3 we get the "reaper creator" essentially telling us but wait! you can control them or merge synthetic and organic life! Why would I even consider this? The Reapers are responsible for so many deaths they need to be destroyed imo.

The Reapers were once their own organic races, forced into a situation they did not ask for or want.  Destroying them when there are alternative options won't bring back those that died.  Not saying it's the wrong choice, because I don't think there is a wrong choice.  You can control them, steer them in a better direction, you can strengthen all galactic DNA, or you can blow them the **** up and go home.  It really just comes down to each individual player.

you really think Harbinger isn't going to seep his tendrils into you, make you come around to the rest of the reaper's way of thinking. They have been shown time and time again to be very good at that sort of thing.

No, I don't think that will happen.  It's not the guaranteed outcome, it's not a stated possibility, I'd go as far as to say it's not even likely.

So the whole thing about indoctrination that has been built up for the past three games won't even affect Shepard because...?

[Talogrungi]

The Angry One wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

So assuming the child was real, The Reaper King is taking the form of the child I watched the Reapers murder in the opening...

Think about what a monumental dick this creature is for a second...
He's quite clearly inside my head to some extent at least, because he's taken the form of the child I watched murdered by his minions...

You know, that's a good point.
The Catalyst takes the form of the kid Shepard saw murdered, who she's been having nightmare's about all this time... and doesn't call him on it?

As spacebaby smugly declares that organic life is preserved, you'd think Shepard would blurt out "What about the boy who's form you're copying? You didn't preserve him, did you? You made him die a painful, fiery death in terror! Now you have the gall to use his form and his voice to spread your propaganda?"

Also brings up the question of how the Catalyst is taking that form.

Where's it getting the imagery? .. only one logical place; Shepard's brain.

It's never a good thing when Reaper technology gets inside someones head.

[Skarwael]

Bill Casey wrote...

Shepard has to make the choice for himself, or it ruins his higher brain functions...
The Reapers employ psychological conditioning to bring people around to their way of thinking...
The more control they exert, the less useful a thrall becomes...

But why is the option even present? Surely such an intelligent being would not risk allowing you to destroy his pets. And if it is there to symbolise breaking free of indoctrination... well, you can't break free of indoctrination.

[Newnation]

Hey, three pages and no mention of the indoctrin.....ah damn it! Sorry, that was my bad. Sorry, guys.

[Geneaux486]

But why is the option even present? Surely such an intelligent being would not risk allowing you to destroy his pets. And if it is there to symbolise breaking free of indoctrination... well, you can't break free of indoctrination.

The Catalyst isn't giving you the options.  They are functions of the Crucible, which your side built.  The Catalyst cooperates by telling you how to use it because the Reapers' ultimate goal is still the preservation and continuity of organic life in the broadest possible sense.  Organics found a better way, even the Catalyst was forced to admit this.

So the whole thing about indoctrination that has been built up for the past three games won't even affect Shepard because...?

He didn't spend enough extended time around Reapers to become indoctrinated.  If all it took was a few hours near or inside of Reaper tech here and there, everyone in the game would be indoctrinated and there'd be no war. Even Benezia, for all the time she spent inside of Soveriegn, not only knew she was indoctrinated, but was able to resist it for brief periods.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 08:15 .

[Meltemph]

 

The Reapers were once their own organic races, forced into a situation they did not ask for or want.

Either way any other ending outside of destroy is keeping them in this state and if they were being mind controlled by the plot device, then when you control them(by deiing and losing everything you have ) you are being no better.

You can control them, steer them in a better direction,

We have no clue what control infers, outside of they stop killing the galaxy for now.  Shep is dead, and erased.  The kid didnt say your mind was going to be uploaded, it says that you will die and lose what you have... 

you can strengthen all galactic DNA,

The weakest written idea out of them all.

or you can blow them the **** up and go home.  It really just comes down to each individual player.

The only one that actually has the least amount of holes.

[Bill Casey]

Geneaux486 wrote...

But why is the option even present? Surely such an intelligent being would not risk allowing you to destroy his pets. And if it is there to symbolise breaking free of indoctrination... well, you can't break free of indoctrination.

The Catalyst isn't giving you the options.  They are functions of the Crucible, which your side built.  The Catalyst cooperates by telling you how to use it because the Reapers' ultimate goal is still the preservation and continuity of organic life in the broadest possible sense.  Organics found a better way, even the Catalyst was forced to admit this.

None of the options fix the problem...

[IanPolaris]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Your only source of information about the choices that you're asked to make is the creator of the Reapers; the entity responsible for incomprehensible suffering and death.

Personally, I'm not going to commit suicide just because this entity tells me it's a good idea.

And the actual source of those choices is a weapon that organics designed, built, and deployed.

Not so.  You are TOLD this but you are told this by a entity that both can not be trusted and one that is a known liar. 

-Polaris

[Meltemph]

He didn't spend enough extended time around Reapers to become indoctrinated.  If all it took was a few hours near or inside of Reaper tech here and there, everyone in the game would be indoctrinated and there'd be no war.

Yes, because based on Mass Effect: Evolution we see that it is totally possible to be hit by an indoctrination device and NOT be effected by it.  <_<

Modifié par Meltemph, 15 avril 2012 - 08:15 .

[Meltemph]

Bill Casey wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

But why is the option even present? Surely such an intelligent being would not risk allowing you to destroy his pets. And if it is there to symbolise breaking free of indoctrination... well, you can't break free of indoctrination.

The Catalyst isn't giving you the options.  They are functions of the Crucible, which your side built.  The Catalyst cooperates by telling you how to use it because the Reapers' ultimate goal is still the preservation and continuity of organic life in the broadest possible sense.  Organics found a better way, even the Catalyst was forced to admit this.

None of the options fix the problem...

Since that catalyst didnt invent the crucible...because didnt say he did, the crucible doesnt have to work to fix the "solution".

At least this is the response you will get.

Modifié par Meltemph, 15 avril 2012 - 08:17 .

[Geneaux486]

IanPolaris wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Your only source of information about the choices that you're asked to make is the creator of the Reapers; the entity responsible for incomprehensible suffering and death.

Personally, I'm not going to commit suicide just because this entity tells me it's a good idea.

And the actual source of those choices is a weapon that organics designed, built, and deployed.

Not so.  You are TOLD this but you are told this by a entity that both can not be trusted and one that is a known liar. 

-Polaris

You're not TOLD that by anybody before you observe it and track its progress through the game.  Vendetta tells you a little more, and the Catalyst tells you nothing other than how to activate it.

And how exactly is the Catalyst a known liar when everything it tells Shepard about the Crucible's activation comes true?

Yes, because based on Mass Effect: Evolution we see that it is totally possible to be hit by an indoctrination device and NOT be effected by it.

So now we're assuming that Shepard has been indoctrinated since Arrival? 

Anyways, I'm getting some sleep, I'll check back here tommorow.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 08:19 .

[Bill Casey]

Shepard was hit by Object Rho and sedated for two days strapped to a table...

[Meltemph]

You're not TOLD that by anybody, you observe it and track its progress through the game.

And at each step they dont know what it does, until the end.

And how exactly is the Catalyst a known liar when everything it tells Shepard about the Crucible's activation comes true?

People infer it, because the Catalyst infers that you will die with the destroy ending, but you don't, necessarily. At minimum most people feel he was being intellectually dishonest. I actually disagree though, I think the child is an info dump and a way for the writer to interject himself at the end of the story.

[Meltemph]

So now we're assuming that Shepard has been indoctrinated since Arrival?

Anyways, I'm getting some sleep, I'll check back here tommorow.

Last I checked, you are only going based off facts, right? So then with this information why would Shep be the exception to the rule?

[IanPolaris]

Actually if the Reapers wanted to quickly indoctrinate shepard they could have during Arrival. Quick indoctrination is possible (see Codex entry) but it generally leaves the subject an impaired and nearly mindless husk and the Reapers didn't want that for Shepard. The fact is that Shep has been exposed to more than enough Reaper tech to possibly be subject to attempted indoctrination. I am not stating it as a fact, but it is a definately possibility.

If we go with that, then why the destroy option is there would be obvious. In order to keep Shepard intact (which the Reapers clearly want) but indoctrinated, he has to chose indoctrination of his own volition and that means he has to be tricked into it (like Saren and TIM were) and that means rejecting the option to reject the reapers. However to do that, the mental option to destroy the reapers (reject the reapers) has to be present. If not, it's quick indoctrination (which renders Shepard useless to the Reapers).

-Polaris

[Dragoni89]

Geneaux486 wrote...

KingKhan03 wrote...
You know I was content with my choice of destroy until I saw the ending, I really hope that extended cut dlc does something to validate my choice I will be satisfied then I just want to see the fruits of my labour ya know?

On that we fully agree.  I sincerely hope you do find something to like about the extended cut DLC.

Because through out the whole game is he is talking about we can control the reapers. And you been fighting against his ideology. We do not know he has been indocrinated until the end. So while being indocrinated, he desides we should control the reapers. When saren was indocrinated he pushed forward the noth for evolution with the machines, systhesis. Obviosuly this does not show that obviously sythesis and control are both what the reapers want.

 
But you have to consider, what the Illusive Man and Saren both wanted was impossible.  The Illusive Man could not have obtained control because he was indoctrinated.  He was playing into the Reaper's hands.  Saren would have never gotten what he wanted from the Reapers because the Reapers use organics for the same purpose regardless of whether or not they prove useful and cooperative.  These were illusions given by the Reapers.  Through the Crucible, which is not of Reaper origin, they became a reality.  That is the key difference.  Shepard obtains either of these ends without using Reaper tech, without being indoctrinated.

Did you even play the game? To ask such a stupid quesition. Why was Sherpard fighting TIM? Cause he fully belieaved reapers cannot be controlled and there is no benifit to humanity?

What stupid question did I ask?  And yes, Shepard did believe it was impossible.  That's why the Crucible was such a game-changer.

Do you need an IQ check? what you are saying  is very contridicting.
Let make this very clear
Shepard belieaved that both Saren and TIM were out of their minds. Control the reapers and evolve with the machines. He truly belieaved thesse were bad ideas cause he fought TIM and Saren in the ME Series.
But suddenly making it possible to do this with the crucible, sythesis and control does not make them viable options. Shepard has been fighting those ideology the entire time.

Example: It was not a good idea to set the house on fire. You stopped the kid trying to.
According to your view. It suddenly becomes a good idea to set the house on fire because you now have the box of matches in your hand. Just like shepard now has the crucible he has power to control the reapers or sysnthesis with t he machines.

That is exactly what you are saying. And no your absoluty wrong. Just because Shepard is suddenly given the power to control the reapers does not mean it suddenly becomes the RIGHT thing to do. Even though shepard rejected TIM control ideology the entire game. Your defending a failed logic.

Modifié par Dragoni89, 15 avril 2012 - 08:25 .

[Bill Casey]

Geneaux486 wrote...

So now we're assuming that Shepard has been indoctrinated since Arrival? 

You have no idea what the word "indoctrinated" means...
Shepard still isn't indoctrinated by the end of ME3, unless you start thinking "oh, don't destroy the reapers, you can control them" or "combining organic and inorganic material against its will sure is a swell idea"...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 avril 2012 - 08:27 .