315 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Geneaux486 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Your only source of information about the choices that you're asked to make is the creator of the Reapers; the entity responsible for incomprehensible suffering and death.

Personally, I'm not going to commit suicide just because this entity tells me it's a good idea.

And the actual source of those choices is a weapon that organics designed, built, and deployed.

Not so.  You are TOLD this but you are told this by a entity that both can not be trusted and one that is a known liar. 

-Polaris

You're not TOLD that by anybody before you observe it and track its progress through the game.  Vendetta tells you a little more, and the Catalyst tells you nothing other than how to activate it.

And how exactly is the Catalyst a known liar when everything it tells Shepard about the Crucible's activation comes true?

Because it doesn't.  The catalyst LIES about the destroy option and does so to dissuade you from picking it (or at the very least is extremely dishonest about it).  He says that the destroy option kills all synethic life including the Geth and that you are partially synethic.  It's very clear that he's strongly implying that this option will kill you and EDI....but we know that it doesn't.  It's not at all clear it even kills the Geth.  We also know that this is the controller and source of the Reapers and the Reapers are notorious liars and have been the entire series.

No reason to take anything star-brat says at face value at all.

Yes, because based on Mass Effect: Evolution we see that it is totally possible to be hit by an indoctrination device and NOT be effected by it.

So now we're assuming that Shepard has been indoctrinated since Arrival? 

Anyways, I'm getting some sleep, I'll check back here tommorow.

No, I think it's more correct to say that Shepard is being indoctrinated (i.e. the attempt) since Arrival, but if you want to preserve the subject (and the Reapers clearly do with Shepard), then the indoctrination has to be slow and subtle....and Shepard (apparently like TIM and Saren) seems to have an usually strong resistance to it.

-Polaris

[Ieldra]

The amount of denial some people show here is astounding. The lengths to which people go just to avoid having to admit that the ending where Shepard survives may not be the best one....

Control keeps the Citadel intact and only damages the relays. It's clearly the best ending if your goal is to rebuild galactic civilization in a reasonable time frame.

And....nowhere does the game tell us that controlling the Reapers is a *bad* idea. For most of the game, it seems an *impossible* idea, that's quite the difference. Even Hackett admits that TIM might be on to something after Sanctuary. TIM isn't a villain because he wants to control the Reapers, but because he leaves heaps of corpses and indoctrinated people in his wake to achieve that goal, and possibly because of what *he* would do with the Reapers if he controlled them. What Shepard would do with the Reapers is up to your imagination, but I'd think for most of us it's quite different.

[prayer wheel mode]
The merit of an idea is independent from the morality of those who support it!
[/prayer wheel mode]

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 avril 2012 - 08:44 .

[DJBare]

Catalyst: You will die, you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: But the reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Yes.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an answer, how is a dead person going to control the reapers?

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

Put it this way. Lets say at the end of Lord of the Rings, Frodo become immortal and is given control of all the orcs, the orcs will obey him unquestioningly and to the letter. Now do you honestly think that living amongst the orcs won't change you in some way? I mean you are now immortal and responsible for the orcs, the orc's nature hasn't been changed they are still orcs all that has changed is that they listen to you instead of Sauron. For the first century you will probably be the same Frodo we know and love but after hundreds and hundreds of years go by and you spending more time with the orcs instead of hobbits what do you think Frodo will be like after say a millennia of living amongst orcs?

Modifié par Harbinger of your Destiny, 15 avril 2012 - 08:51 .

[Dragoni89]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The amount of denial some people show here is astounding. The lengths to which people go just to avoid having to admit that the ending where Shepard survives may not be the best one....

Control keeps the Citadel intact and only damages the relays. It's clearly the best ending if your goal is to rebuild galactic civilization in a reasonable time frame.

And....nowhere does the game tell us that controlling the Reapers is a *bad* idea. For most of the game, it seems an *impossible* idea, that's quite the difference. Even Hackett admits that TIM might be on to something after Sanctuary. TIM isn't a villain because he wants to control the Reapers, but because he leaves heaps of corpses and indoctrinated people in his wake to achieve that goal, and possibly because of what *he* would do with the Reapers if he controlled them. What Shepard would do with the Reapers is up to your imagination, but I'd think for most of us it's quite different.

[prayer wheel mode]
The merit of an idea is independent from the morality of those who support it!
[/prayer wheel mode]

How much self denial are you in?

:"Nowhere does game tell us that controlling the Reapers is a *bad* idea." It goes both ways. But at the very start of the game. TIM tries to explain his "control ideology to Shepard" I remeber shepard saying something along the lines like "go to to hell"? I just can't associate TIM to having good idea when he obvious shows that all his ideas are crazy. What makes control any different? Because the starchild gives it to you as an options? Oh please keep it coming.

One final note. The Protheon VI says there were 2 groups that wanted to one wanted to control and one wanted to destroy. The one that wanted to control the reapers were the that were INDOCRINATED.
Well it looks like you certainly have been indocrinated to belieaved control is a good option. It is by no mere coincidence the VI states this. The amount of denial control likers  show here is astounding.

Modifié par Dragoni89, 15 avril 2012 - 09:05 .

[IanPolaris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The amount of denial some people show here is astounding. The lengths to which people go just to avoid having to admit that the ending where Shepard survives may not be the best one....

Control keeps the Citadel intact and only damages the relays. It's clearly the best ending if your goal is to rebuild galactic civilization in a reasonable time frame.

And....nowhere does the game tell us that controlling the Reapers is a *bad* idea. For most of the game, it seems an *impossible* idea, that's quite the difference. Even Hackett admits that TIM might be on to something after Sanctuary. TIM isn't a villain because he wants to control the Reapers, but because he leaves heaps of corpses and indoctrinated people in his wake to achieve that goal, and possibly because of what *he* would do with the Reapers if he controlled them. What Shepard would do with the Reapers is up to your imagination, but I'd think for most of us it's quite different.

[prayer wheel mode]
The merit of an idea is independent from the morality of those who support it!
[/prayer wheel mode]

Pfft.  Shepard himself (herself) explains to TIM brilliantly and eloquantly why control is such a horrible idea for ANYONE.  Even Adm Hacket immediately post Mars scoffs at control saying "He's (TIM) wrong.  Dead Reapers are how we win this."

Basically, you are asked to believe that you will DIE and you will LOSE everything you have/are but you will control the Reapers.  How is that supposed to work?  Oh wait...it doesn't.  Notice the star-brat smirking when you pick this terrible choice giving the Reapers their victory.

Even if you do somehow control them, how long is it before Shepard becomes something other than human.  Not long I think and that is the point Shepard makes to TIM.  What's worse, it's no longer feasible (because the Reapers know all about it) to use the crucible again if the Reapers break control....or if Shepard becomes corrupted.

Control==Reaper Victory.  Don't doubt it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Put it this way. Lets say at the end of Lord of the Rings, Frodo become immortal and is given control of all the orcs, the orcs will obey him unquestioningly and to the letter. Now do you honestly think that living amongst the orcs won't change you in some way? I mean you are now immortal and responsible for the orcs, the orc's nature hasn't been changed they are still orcs all that has changed is that they listen to you instead of Sauron. For the first century you will probably be the same Frodo we know and love but after hundreds and hundreds of years go by and you spending more time with the orcs instead of hobbits what do you think Frodo will be like after say a millennia of living amongst orcs?

Actually the Ring temps Frodo with exactly that option in LOTR.  Of course Frodo himself is nowhere near powerful enough to make good on it, but others such as Aragorn, Gandalf, or Elrond (or Galadriel) most certainly are and it's Galadriel that lays out why this (Control in LOTR) is such a horrible idea.  She would start by doing good things and setting the Shire to rights (when she addresses Samwise) but it wouldn't end there...and she would wind up being worse than the evil being (Sauron) she replaced.

Same here.

-Polaris

[Skarwael]

DJBare wrote...

Catalyst: You will die, you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: But the reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Yes.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an answer, how is a dead person going to control the reapers?

You ascend to a higher plane... or something.

[IanPolaris]

Skarwael wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Catalyst: You will die, you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: But the reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Yes.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an answer, how is a dead person going to control the reapers?

You ascend to a higher plane... or something.

Facts not in evidence.  It is just as likely (and there is at least just as much evidence) that you are completely destroyed after you tell the Reapers to break off.

-Polaris

[Hobbes]

Maybe, but I don't know.
Control always seemed to me like you are just letting the Reapers win.

[Cucobr]

No.

You die.

[ArchDuck]

DJBare wrote...

Catalyst: You will die, you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: But the reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Yes.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an answer, how is a dead person going to control the reapers?

Some sort of destructive scanning/encoding of consciousness into digital form?

But really the endings all have "WTF?!?" parts to them.

Red: All synthetics gone. Kind of. Or not. Maybe all tech gone. EMP pulse? Super virus? Who knows.

Green: Green energy making uber complex changes to organic genetics on the fly and identifying synthetic life so it can make even more complex organic component incorporations. Uh WTF?

Blue: A dead person controling the Reapers? How?

Modifié par ArchDuck, 15 avril 2012 - 09:22 .

[Commander Shepard the Grey Warden]

DJBare wrote...

Catalyst: You will die, you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: But the reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Yes.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an answer, how is a dead person going to control the reapers?

His body dies, but his mind is absorbed into the Crucible. He's still conscience.

[IanPolaris]

Commander Shepard the Grey Warden wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Catalyst: You will die, you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: But the reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Yes.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an answer, how is a dead person going to control the reapers?

His body dies, but his mind is absorbed into the Crucible. He's still conscience.

You know this how?

-Polaris

[Skarwael]

IanPolaris wrote...

Skarwael wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Catalyst: You will die, you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: But the reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Yes.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an answer, how is a dead person going to control the reapers?

You ascend to a higher plane... or something.

Facts not in evidence.  It is just as likely (and there is at least just as much evidence) that you are completely destroyed after you tell the Reapers to break off.

-Polaris

Didn't say it was a fact just a possibility like, as you say, being destroyed in every sense.

[ArchDuck]

IanPolaris wrote...

You know this how?

-Polaris

Nobody knows jack. Its all speculation as per intended.

I don't even think the original writer(s) know WTF was happening.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 15 avril 2012 - 09:24 .

[eventhewaves]

Commander Shepard the Grey Warden wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Catalyst: You will die, you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: But the reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Yes.

I'm still waiting for someone to give me an answer, how is a dead person going to control the reapers?

His body dies, but his mind is absorbed into the Crucible. He's still conscience.

But Shepard's mind, and consciousness, would be included among the "everything" that gets lost if you pick Control. Everything's not a word that leaves a lot of room for interpretation. It's a hard-limit absolute statement.  If you're dead, and you've lost everything, then what in the Hell do you have left to Control the Reapers with?  Which part of Shepard remains to, say, order the Reapers to fly into the Sun and die?

And doesn't the Catalyst draw a pretty ominous distinction by separating "you will die" from "you will lose everything you have," anyway?  To paraphrase Unforgiven, if you kill a man, you are taking everything he has -- and everything he will have had in the future.  So what exactly's getting lost here past the initial point of death?

Modifié par eventhewaves, 15 avril 2012 - 09:31 .

[Ieldra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The amount of denial some people show here is astounding. The lengths to which people go just to avoid having to admit that the ending where Shepard survives may not be the best one....

Control keeps the Citadel intact and only damages the relays. It's clearly the best ending if your goal is to rebuild galactic civilization in a reasonable time frame.

And....nowhere does the game tell us that controlling the Reapers is a *bad* idea. For most of the game, it seems an *impossible* idea, that's quite the difference. Even Hackett admits that TIM might be on to something after Sanctuary. TIM isn't a villain because he wants to control the Reapers, but because he leaves heaps of corpses and indoctrinated people in his wake to achieve that goal, and possibly because of what *he* would do with the Reapers if he controlled them. What Shepard would do with the Reapers is up to your imagination, but I'd think for most of us it's quite different.

[prayer wheel mode]
The merit of an idea is independent from the morality of those who support it!
[/prayer wheel mode]

Pfft.  Shepard himself (herself) explains to TIM brilliantly and eloquantly why control is such a horrible idea for ANYONE.  Even Adm Hacket immediately post Mars scoffs at control saying "He's (TIM) wrong.  Dead Reapers are how we win this."

No, Shepard doesn't doesn't explain this to TIM. Not in my games anyway because I choose the options where he doesn't. Which are, ironically, the Paragon options on Mars and the Renegade options on the Citadel.

As for Hackett, yeah, he says that, but that's after Mars, when controlling the Reapers still seems like an impossible idea. He talks differently afteer Sanctuary.

Basically, you are asked to believe that you will DIE and you will LOSE everything you have/are but you will control the Reapers.  How is that supposed to work?  Oh wait...it doesn't.  Notice the star-brat smirking when you pick this terrible choice giving the Reapers their victory.

You die as a human. You sacrifice your organic nature. Yeah, the phrasing is terrible, just like other parts of the Catalyst speech like "I can't make them happen.....and I won't", but the meaning is rather obvious.

Even if you do somehow control them, how long is it before Shepard becomes something other than human.  Not long I think and that is the point Shepard makes to TIM.  What's worse, it's no longer feasible (because the Reapers know all about it) to use the crucible again if the Reapers break control....or if Shepard becomes corrupted.

What happens to Shepard long-term is up to your imagination. I can argue the same way against Destroy, saying "there is no guarantee that synthetics won't eventually destroy all organics". There are never absolute solutions, to expect them is foolish and to use their absence as a argument is a fallacy.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 avril 2012 - 09:32 .

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

IanPolaris wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Put it this way. Lets say at the end of Lord of the Rings, Frodo become immortal and is given control of all the orcs, the orcs will obey him unquestioningly and to the letter. Now do you honestly think that living amongst the orcs won't change you in some way? I mean you are now immortal and responsible for the orcs, the orc's nature hasn't been changed they are still orcs all that has changed is that they listen to you instead of Sauron. For the first century you will probably be the same Frodo we know and love but after hundreds and hundreds of years go by and you spending more time with the orcs instead of hobbits what do you think Frodo will be like after say a millennia of living amongst orcs?

Actually the Ring temps Frodo with exactly that option in LOTR.  Of course Frodo himself is nowhere near powerful enough to make good on it, but others such as Aragorn, Gandalf, or Elrond (or Galadriel) most certainly are and it's Galadriel that lays out why this (Control in LOTR) is such a horrible idea.  She would start by doing good things and setting the Shire to rights (when she addresses Samwise) but it wouldn't end there...and she would wind up being worse than the evil being (Sauron) she replaced.

Same here.

-Polaris

Exactly, in the end you would become a reaper and the cycle will continue again and all you fought for in the trilogy would be for naught.

[ArchDuck]

eventhewaves wrote...

But Shepard's mind, and consciousness, would be included among the "everything" that gets lost if you pick Control. Everything's not a word that leaves a lot of room for interpretation. It's a hard-limit absolute statement.  If you're dead, and you've lost everything, then what in the Hell do you have left to Control the Reapers with?  Which part of Shepard remains to, say, order the Reapers to fly into the Sun and die?

And doesn't the Catalyst draw a pretty ominous distinction by separating "you will die" from "you will lose everything you have," anyway?  To paraphrase Unforgiven, if you kill a man, you are taking everything he has -- and everything he will have had in the future.  So what exactly's getting lost here past the initial point of death?

Nobody knows jack. Its all speculation as per intended.

I don't even think the original writer(s) know WTF was happening.

[Ieldra]

Dragoni89 wrote...
:"Nowhere does game tell us that controlling the Reapers is a *bad* idea." It goes both ways. But at the very start of the game. TIM tries to explain his "control ideology to Shepard" I remeber shepard saying something along the lines like "go to to hell"? I just can't associate TIM to having good idea when he obvious shows that all his ideas are crazy. What makes control any different? Because the starchild gives it to you as an options? Oh please keep it coming.

Don't trust Casper? I understand, but then why do you trust the Destroy option? If Casper is suspect, all the options are equally suspicious.

As for your assertion that Control is a "Reapers win" scenario, how do you explain that they leave if you take this option? That makes no sense.

And TIM, it's the same thing as with Saren actually: both believed in certain ideas, which may be good or bad, doesn't matter, but indoctrination made them believe a certain sequence of actions would make those ideas real. The ideas themselves are good or bad independently of Reaper indoctrination.

The kind of reasoning you're using here amounts to "Anyone who is now indoctrinated can only ever have had bad ideas". That's obviously a fallacy.

[KingKhan03]

The Catalyst after Shephard chooses the Control Ending::

Modifié par KingKhan03, 15 avril 2012 - 09:42 .

[ArchDuck]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Exactly, in the end you would become a reaper and the cycle will continue again and all you fought for in the trilogy would be for naught.

Or not. Maybe you just order Reapers to fly into black holes.

Its all speculation so people shouldn't pretend like they have a definitive answer. Some answers are more logical and/or likely but people shouldn't pretend they have it 100% solved.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 15 avril 2012 - 09:43 .

[Dragoni89]

One final note. The Protheon VI says there were 2 groups that wanted to one wanted to control and one wanted to destroy. The one that wanted to control the reapers were the ones that were INDOCRINATED.
Well it looks like you certainly have been indoctrinated to believed control is a good option. It is by no mere coincidence the VI states this. The amount of denial "control liker" show here is astounding.

Everything points towards CONTROL is a bad idea.  So please your arguing a proven fact.

Modifié par Dragoni89, 15 avril 2012 - 09:49 .

[eventhewaves]

ArchDuck wrote...

Nobody knows jack. Its all speculation as per intended.

I don't even think the original writer(s) know WTF was happening.

Pretty much, yeah.

Everybody else is asking questions.  I just wanted to fit in!

Seriously, though: if you lose everything you have, then the Catalyst's pretty much telling you outright that if you pick this option, we're going to destroy you, your morals, your ethics, your purpose, and your goals so you're -- at best -- a total blank slate, a paper doll being sent forth to get torn apart by the combined reality-warping might of the Reaper personalities...

And now I get what the Catalyst is trying to do.  It's had enough and wants to force somebody else to deal with these giant galaxy-killing ****s.  He's thinking, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."

It all makes sense now!

Modifié par eventhewaves, 15 avril 2012 - 09:48 .