315 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

IanPolaris wrote...

There is no evidence that you are permitted to do this.  After all you are GONE (dead and destroyed) as soon as you order the Reapers to break off.

-Polaris

Your control clearly lasts for at least some time, because otherwise all we'd see was a momentary hesitation then the Reapers would get back to reaping.

And at Reaper speeds, it wouldn't take very long to get to the Sun from Earth

[KingZayd]

Rudimentary creature of flesh and blood. You attempt to control the reapers minds, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.

your mind enslaving all the reapers? not gonna work.

[Ziggy]

I hate the control ending:
Shep dies, TIM was right all along and to top it off it's (perhaps) the paragon ending

Modifié par Em23, 15 avril 2012 - 11:46 .

[Vigil_N7]

Control does seem to offer the best outcome.

- Shepard doesn't commit genocide
- Does not homogenize the galaxy/play God
- Citadel and all the refugees in hiding on it survive
- With control of the reapers, the beings that created the mass relays, re-building them if need be shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Shepard CAN control them, Weekes suggests that much and it makes sense, TIM controlling the reapers does not = shepard controlling them.

TIM wanted them to advance humanity and protect humanity, Shepard can either control to destroy or to use them as a force of good.

[KingZayd]

Question: if the starchild looked and sounded like Sovereign, how would the choices made differ? (i think it'd make an interesting experiment)

To me, the whole scene stinks of manipulation. Why does the starchild probe your mind and select the image of this child (side note: who it killed)? Is it a coincidence that it picks the one image that haunts you? No, It is exploiting your emotional vulnerability. those of you swayed from picking destroy, have fallen for it's cheap (yet effective) tricks.

Modifié par KingZayd, 15 avril 2012 - 12:51 .

[Wulfram]

What's the point of manipulating Shepard when it could just leave him to die? Or just not tell you about Destroy at all? If it's lieing about Control, why isn't it lieing about Destroy?

[KingZayd]

Wulfram wrote...

What's the point of manipulating Shepard when it could just leave him to die? Or just not tell you about Destroy at all? If it's lieing about Control, why isn't it lieing about Destroy?

who says it isn't lying about destroy? it does seem to be discouraging you from it. 

Watch the scene again: it never reveals a  destroy option. This was assumed from the very beginning. It is the Crucible's original purpose. It says " I know you've thought of destroying us". And you see Anderson shooting it. The only thing it tells you is that it will kill the geth (if you believe the synthetics will always kill us argument, then why do you care about that? that sounds good to me) and that the peace won't last (when does it ever?)

as for why it wants to manipulate shepard:
Non IT:
It wants Shepard to select synthesis, for some reason. Do those reaper husks count as a synthesis? But what about when the crucible sucks too much for synthesis? Non IT is a bit tricky, but then with face value i see no reason for the starchild to bring Shepard upstairs, instead of leaving him to bleed out downstairs. Maybe plan B is for you to pick control. 1 Shepard Husk probably better than none. Also, Harbinger has been interested in Shepard for a while, maybe they want him as part of that human reaper Shepard suspects they might be trying to make.

Also, there is no reason for synthesis to actually stop the reapers. As far they are concerned, they are the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before them, we are nothing. Our extinction is inevitable. They are the end of EVERYTHING. just ask Sovereign. What? you think by putting some sillicon inside you, the reapers are suddenly going to like and respect you?

IT:
 If this is the battle for the galaxy, why would the allied forces retreat? without the crucible, all hope is lost. On the contrary the rational option is to throw everything you have at it. sure shepard has ridiculous mental strength, which is why he's proved resistant all this time. However the dreams show you his increasing mental frailty, and then after that reaper blast landed right in front of him, he's not in good shape. This could allow the subversive indoctrination to suddenly get a boost, and overcome your mind.

whether you believe that or not: within the citadel the illusive man does indoctrinate you.. how else is he able to control you and make you shoot anderson? sure you resist it and shoot him/talk him into shooting himself in the head thus freeing you from the indoctrination. BUT, as we've seen in the series, freedom from indoctrination is fleeting. Shiala started to hear the voices again (hive mind protected her) , even though Sovereign was dead. Rana Thanoptis, who was in the process of being indoctrinated on Virmire, also by Sovereign went crazy when the reapers came back. TIM was able to control reaper husks (indoctrinated), which is why Sanctuary was bombed as a precaution. Conclusion: indoctrination puppet strings are transferable. Once you are indoctrinated by something, something else can take control.

In this case, the starchild is actually the reaper influence trying to persuade you that you don't want to destroy the reapers. Destruction has to be available for you to reject it.


Why does EMS affect the options and the outcomes you see? this entire experience is constructed using your imagination, with the reapers influencing it.
sub 1500:

Destroy only:
explanation of choices- basically you're Vega if he was in control, and you've basically rushed around the galaxy to take back Earth. There is no way you're going to be convinced that there are any options, congratulations you beat indoctrination.
explanation of cutscene outcome- in your mind you suspect the crucible pretty much sucks because you've rushed so much, this leads to the vaporise ending you see.
real world outcome- doesn't matter that indoctrination failed, you still failed. You almost certainly bleed out in London/on the citadel (depending on where the indoctrination takes hold). 

Control only (rare): (i suspect you have to be a pretty damn poor Shepard)
explanation of choices-
you have to have saved the collector base among some other unknown parameters. What you want, is what the reapers want you to want. You've fallen into the same trap as countless others before you including the illusive man, except he was better prepared. you get indoctrinated.

explanation of cutscene outcome-
in your mind you suspect the crucible pretty much sucks because you've rushed so much, this leads to the clumsy control you see.

real world outcome- you're indoctrinated, but it probably doesn't matter. 
You almost certainly bleed out in London/on the citadel (depending on where the indoctrination takes hold).

above 1500 EMS, you imagine the crucible's effectiveness to be greater. 

Perfect Destroy Ending:
explanation of options-
catalyst is ready, about as good as it could be in this cycle. You've taken your time, you're more likely to be open minded than VegaShepard. Indoctrination has a chance of working on you, so the reapers try.

explanation of cutscene outcome-
in your mind, the crucible works really well, best outcomes of each choice seen. you see Joker bringing the ones you care about the most to safety (mother excluded), your LI and your best friend (Garrus in this case)

in reality- you gasp in the rubble of what appears to be london (suggesting you were indoctrinated before TIM encounter) presumably free from indoctrination (destruction IS the rejection of the starchild's philosophies, it's the only choice it doesn't like.), but for how long? allied forces are probably planning another attempt on the citadel (it's the only sensible thing to do)

Perfect Other Ending:
explanation of options-
catalyst is ready, about as good as it could be in this cycle. You've taken your time, you're more likely to be open minded than VegaShepard. Indoctrination has a chance of working on you, so the reapers try.

explanation of cutscene outcome-
in your mind, the crucible works really well, best outcomes of each choice seen. (for synthesis, Joker and EDI happy (that fits with your decision. For control, i'm not sure, but i suspect it'll be the same as for destroy?)

in reality- 
allied forces are probably planning another attempt on the citadel (it's the only sensible thing to do), but unfortunately for them you're indoctrinated. How it turns out in the end remains to be seen. However, since the EMS is so strong, you're probably not going to stop them by yourself, so you can be pretty comfortable in thinking you haven't just doomed the galaxy. There will be consequences however. Friends may die, Shepard may die. Maybe there'll be a paragon interrupt suicide in the end (can you match Saren's sacrifice?)


Another note (sorry): Why does your choice at the end of ME2 affect the option you get with low EMS? (Control/Destroy). Because it's in your head.

Modifié par KingZayd, 15 avril 2012 - 03:56 .

[kal_reegar]

I don't think control is the best ending.

If the star brat is real and honest, and the synthetics-organic war is inevitable, "Shepard" (who controls the reapers now) will have to commit the genocide of the advanced organics himself. Soon or later.
He has only delayed the next cycle. Reapers have won.

If the star brat is real but he's wrong or he's lying, Shepard is probably dead and fried and the Reapers have won.
But I don't think that's the case, otherwise why would the reapers leave the Earth?

If the star brat isn't real (indoc theory) choosing control means you've been indocrinated. You lost.


So, no: maybe control is the WORST ending, in any case.

[Geneaux486]

And at each step they dont know what it does, until the end.

They know that it generates massive amounts of energy, and that it uses dark energy.  They simply don't know exactly how that energy will be released and spread.

People infer it, because the Catalyst infers that you will die with the destroy ending, but you don't, necessarily. At minimum most people feel he was being intellectually dishonest. I actually disagree though, I think the child is an info dump and a way for the writer to interject himself at the end of the story.

The Catalyst doesn't say Shepard will die in destroy.  He doesn't even imply it.  All he says is "Even you are partly synthetic", but he's also talking about wiping out synthetic  life.  Shepard is not synthetic life, he was simply resurrected by highly advanced tech.  It's more likely that the reason he brings up Shepard's synthetics is the start of a line of thought that the Catalyst expands on further along in the dialogue "synthetics are already a part of you, can you imagine your life without them?"

Last I checked, you are only going based off facts, right? So then with this information why would Shep be the exception to the rule?

 
We don't know, but he clearly was not indoctrinated as a result of contact with Object Rho, so while we don't know why that didn't indoctrinate him when it did so to everyone else, there obviously is some reason, because he wasn't. 

Do you need an IQ check?

 
Cut the sh*t.

Shepard belieaved that both Saren and TIM were out of their minds. Control the reapers and evolve with the machines. He truly belieaved thesse were bad ideas cause he fought TIM and Saren in the ME Series.
But suddenly making it possible to do this with the crucible, sythesis and control does not make them viable options. Shepard has been fighting those ideology the entire time.

 
Saren and the Illusive Man were out of their minds.  What Saren was talking about was impossible.  If Shepard had stepped aside and let Saren go ahead with his plan, what do you think would have happened?  If you actually think the end result would have been synthesis, and not Soveriegn betraying Saren and processing him along with all the other organics, then you haven't been paying attention to how the Reapers think and act.  Synthesis was a lie that Saren kept telling himself to ease his fears that he would be discarded by Soveriegn after being used by him.  And the Illusive Man?  He was out of his mind as well.  He could never have used Reaper tech to assume control of the Reapers because it indoctrinated him.  What you don't seem to understand is that synthesis and control were not possible through Saren and the Illusive Man.  It would never have happened.  It was, however, possibly through the Crucible, which is not of Reaper origin.  It's a means of victory on the terms of the organics, and as we clearly see after you choose those options, it actually works.

That is exactly what you are saying. And no your absoluty wrong. Just because Shepard is suddenly given the power to control the reapers does not mean it suddenly becomes the RIGHT thing to do. Even though shepard rejected TIM control ideology the entire game. Your defending a failed logic.

Well I've already pointed out in the segment above why you're wrong, so I won't bother repeating myself on those points.  I will, however, add that Shepard genuinely believed control was impossible, which is a big part of the reason why he opposed the Illusive Man, because he thought the Illusive Man was going to wind up getting himself indoctrinated and making a big mess (which he did).  Through the Crucible, which came to exist independently of the Illusive Man or the Reapers, it became a very real, very viable option, and in many ways is the most merciful way to end the Reaper threat.

You have no idea what the word "indoctrinated" means...
Shepard still isn't indoctrinated by the end of ME3, unless you start thinking "oh, don't destroy the reapers, you can control them" or "combining organic and inorganic material against its will sure is a swell idea"...

That is still speculation.  Shepard choosing control or synthesis does not mean he is indoctrinated.  Besides, think back to how Benezia described indoctrination, beating against the window of your own mind while your hands torture and murder.  Shepard has not experienced the symptons that come with actual indoctrination.  Not the uncontrollable behavior, not the endless whispering of voices, none of it.  There is nothing to suggest he is suffering from indoctrination.

[Meltemph]

The Catalyst doesn't say Shepard will die in destroy. He doesn't even imply it. All he says is "Even you are partly synthetic", but he's also talking about wiping out synthetic life. Shepard is not synthetic life, he was simply resurrected by highly advanced tech. It's more likely that the reason he brings up Shepard's synthetics is the start of a line of thought that the Catalyst expands on further along in the dialogue "synthetics are already a part of you, can you imagine your life without them?"

That is a blatent "I believe what I want" moment.

"You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want. Including the Geth. Even you are partly synthetic"

Then Shep says

"But the reapers will be destroyed?"

Then the child goes to talk about why the peace wont last and why synthetics are so important. Dont distort the order of the sentence to fit your idea...

They know that it generates massive amounts of energy, and that it uses dark energy.  They simply don't know exactly how that energy will be released and spread. 

Obviously...nobody but the writers could know what that would do.

We don't know, but he clearly was not indoctrinated as a result of contact with Object Rho, so while we don't know why that didn't indoctrinate him when it did so to everyone else, there obviously is some reason, because he wasn't.

It is only clear if you dont think the IT theory has any merit. ME personally I am unsure, that said... This is a blatent point that we are not supposed to take everything at face value.

Modifié par Meltemph, 15 avril 2012 - 04:37 .

[Meltemph]

Through the Crucible, which came to exist independently of the Illusive Man or the Reapers, it became a very real, very viable option, and in many ways is the most merciful way to end the Reaper threat.

Oh yes, because "You will die, you will control us, but you will lose everything you have" totally makes sense and very easy to discern what that means. >.>

[Geneaux486]

That is a blatent "I believe what I want" moment.

"You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want. Including the Geth. Even you are partly synthetic"

Then Shep says

"But the reapers will be destroyed?"

Then the child goes to talk about why the peace wont last and why synthetics are so important. Dont distort the order of the sentence to fit your idea...

All the Catalyst says is "even you are partly synthetic", not "you will die along with us."  And Shepard can potentially live if your EMS is high enough.  The Catalyst never says Shepard will definetely die.

Oh yes, because "You will die, you will control us, but you will lose everything you have" totally makes sense and very easy to discern what that means. >.>

Uh, when I heard it, I kind of assumed it meant my Shepard would die but the Reapers would obey him.  And then that's what happened.  It was actually pretty straightforward.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 04:45 .

[Cobra's_back]

Bill Casey wrote...

I don't care if the game rewards you for it, attempting to control all of the Reapers after everything you've seen and been through is the stupidest choice you can possibly make in all three games...

By far...

By far...


You just shot Anderson against your own will...
Just now...

This. How can anyone really trust controlling them?

[Geneaux486]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

I don't care if the game rewards you for it, attempting to control all of the Reapers after everything you've seen and been through is the stupidest choice you can possibly make in all three games...

By far...

By far...


You just shot Anderson against your own will...
Just now...

This. How can anyone really trust controlling them?

Because what you saw before was the Illusive Man being indoctrinated and using Reaper tech to mess up everything, not any sort of control of the Reapers.  Apples and oranges.

[Meltemph]

All the Catalyst says is "even you are partly synthetic", not "you will die along with us." And Shepard can potentially live if your EMS is high enough. The Catalyst never says Shepard will definetely die.

WTH are you talking about? The kid CLEARLY mentions this by itself, in the destroy conversation, while talking about how all synthetic life will be destroyed, the geth, and him making sure you understand you are partly synthetic.

The conversation about living without synthetics doesnt even come until the synthesis option is talked about, which means that the "you are partly snythetic" had a VERY obvious reason for the kid saying it. That is, unless you are saying that the writers put the info dump there at the end, and thn just decided to remind us how synthetic we are for no good reason.

Modifié par Meltemph, 15 avril 2012 - 04:51 .

[Cobra's_back]

kal_reegar wrote...

I don't think control is the best ending.

If the star brat is real and honest, and the synthetics-organic war is inevitable, "Shepard" (who controls the reapers now) will have to commit the genocide of the advanced organics himself. Soon or later.
He has only delayed the next cycle. Reapers have won.

If the star brat is real but he's wrong or he's lying, Shepard is probably dead and fried and the Reapers have won.
But I don't think that's the case, otherwise why would the reapers leave the Earth?

If the star brat isn't real (indoc theory) choosing control means you've been indocrinated. You lost.


So, no: maybe control is the WORST ending, in any case.

I also believe this to be the case.

[Laurencio]

I just wanted to give the other cycles a chance, so I picked Destroy. If my cycle dies, then so be it, but at least the reapers, the threat to every galactic community since well.. forever... is gone.

[Meltemph]

I kind of assumed it meant my Shepard would die but the Reapers would obey him. And then that's what happened. It was actually pretty straightforward.

Great, nice to know sentences that don't make any sense, makes sense to you. So the reapers got religion, Shep, the new "Holy Spirit".

[Geneaux486]

Meltemph wrote...

 

WTH are you talking about? The kid CLEARLY mentions this by itself, in the destroy conversation, while talking about hall synthetic life will be destroyed, the geth, and him making sure you understand you are partly synthetic.

The conversation about living without synthetics doesnt even come until the synthesis option is talked about, which means that the "you are partly snythetic" had a VERY obvious reason for the kid saying it. That is, unless you are saying that the writers put the info dump there at the end, and thn just decided to remind us how synthetic we are for no good reason.

Where does the Catalyst say "You'll die" when talking about destroy?  Where does he say anything other than a vague "You are partly synthetic"?  Shepard can die in the destroy ending, but he can also survive.  The Catalyst didn't guarantee anything.

Great, nice to know sentences that don't make any sense, makes sense to you.

How does it not make sense?  Control will kill you, but the Reapers will obey.  Then control kills Shepard, and the Reapers obey.  It's about as straightforward as cause and effect gets. 

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 04:53 .

[Dragoni89]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Saren and the Illusive Man were out of their minds.  What Saren was talking about was impossible.  If Shepard had stepped aside and let Saren go ahead with his plan, what do you think would have happened?  If you actually think the end result would have been synthesis, and not Soveriegn betraying Saren and processing him along with all the other organics, then you haven't been paying attention to how the Reapers think and act.  Synthesis was a lie that Saren kept telling himself to ease his fears that he would be discarded by Soveriegn after being used by him.  And the Illusive Man?  He was out of his mind as well.  He could never have used Reaper tech to assume control of the Reapers because it indoctrinated him.  What you don't seem to understand is that synthesis and control were not possible through Saren and the Illusive Man.  It would never have happened.  It was, however, possibly through the Crucible, which is not of Reaper origin.  It's a means of victory on the terms of the organics, and as we clearly see after you choose those options, it actually works.

Look at what you write and look at what decided at the end. Stop contridicting yourself. In your own words "If Shepard had stepped aside and let Saren go ahead with his plan, what
do you think would have happened?  If you actually think the end result
would have been synthesis, and not Soveriegn betraying Saren and
processing him along with all the other organics, then you haven't been
paying attention to how the Reapers think and act." Replace those with sheaprd and catalystit ( reaper god). Big contridcition here if you don't see it your a lost cause. Cause nothing is gonna go through that thick head of yours. 

Indocrinated players lead to control and synsthesis ideology . These are reaper ideologies. Why is it considered reaper ideologies. Cause by chooosing both of these choices you are agreeing with the catalyst that sythetics will always kill organics. You are not giving humanity a chance of hope to solve their own probelms in the future. You are some how doing exactly what the reapers want. If you do not realise this than I can not be bothered to keep arguing with you cause obviously your in self denial and don't think.

Control and Synthesis are both ideaologies associated with reaper indocrination. Your arguing that the crucible is not reaper origin. But it uses the catalyst as  a source of Power which is of reaper origin. How the hell does the catalyst know so well what will happen once you made your choice? Does not matter if it is not the reapers who came up with the concept. In the end it was still using reaper technology. The source it was the catalyst. So it allows the catalyst to send out reaper energy waves.

In last cycle there were two groups , one wanted control the other wanted to destroy. It was found out later the ones that wanted to control were the ones who were indocriniated. Control = associate with reaper ideology. Yes confirmed. Synthesis = associate with reaper ideology yes confirmed by Sarens speech. Players who chose control and synthesis is agreeing with reaper ideology. Confirmed.

Modifié par Dragoni89, 15 avril 2012 - 04:55 .

[Meltemph]

Where does the Catalyst say "You'll die" when talking about destroy? Where does he say anything other than a vague "You are partly synthetic"? Shepard can die in the destroy ending, but he can also survive. The Catalyst didn't guarantee anything.

He JUST SAID IT. He said ALL synthetics would be destroyed, then reminded you how you are partly synthetic, that is BLATANT. Besides, I just thought you said we were supposed to take what the kid says at face value? So the kid doesnt know what he is talking about, and he was guessing....great.

[Meltemph]

How does it not make sense? Control will kill you, but the Reapers will obey. Then control kills Shepard, and the Reapers obey. It's about as straightforward as cause and effect gets.

Only up until the point Shep is DEAD. After that Shep no longer controls them.

[Evil Minion]

You can't eliminate "war" no matter what you do.

Therefore, "control" was the least obnoxious ending for me.

"Destroy" only kills the synthetic life in the current cycle. They can easily come back in the future and the #$%# just starts again.

[recentio]

Geneaux486 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

I don't care if the game rewards you for it, attempting to control all of the Reapers after everything you've seen and been through is the stupidest choice you can possibly make in all three games...

By far...

By far...


You just shot Anderson against your own will...
Just now...

This. How can anyone really trust controlling them?

Because what you saw before was the Illusive Man being indoctrinated and using Reaper tech to mess up everything, not any sort of control of the Reapers.  Apples and oranges.

I think Shepard can successfully control the reapers where TIM can't because Shepard (paragon) has a good, selfless character while TIM has a flawed, selfish character. It's not that no one can control the reapers, only that no one with TIM's character flaws can control them without becoming evil. Even a very moral Shepard might eventually succumb to the lure of such power.

I imagined that mine used control to make the reapers retreat and destroy themselves -- ending the temptation and the reaper threat without killing the Geth.

[Laurencio]

Evil Minion wrote...

You can't eliminate "war" no matter what you do.

Therefore, "control" was the least obnoxious ending for me.

"Destroy" only kills the synthetic life in the current cycle. They can easily come back in the future and the #$%# just starts again.

True, but at least you're not letting some absurd illogical galactic police squadron commit genocide every 50k years.