315 réponses à ce sujet

[recentio]

Meltemph wrote...

How does it not make sense? Control will kill you, but the Reapers will obey. Then control kills Shepard, and the Reapers obey. It's about as straightforward as cause and effect gets.

Only up until the point Shep is DEAD. After that Shep no longer controls them.

I imagine it may have been similar to Legions "death." For Shepard to have control, obviously his/her mind still exists, though the body is disintegrated.

[kingofkings276]

Control allows to take over the reapers and fly them into the sun without anybody dying. That already makes it the best ending, but if it also saves the relays that's another plus

[Cobra's_back]

Geneaux486 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

I don't care if the game rewards you for it, attempting to control all of the Reapers after everything you've seen and been through is the stupidest choice you can possibly make in all three games...

By far...

By far...


You just shot Anderson against your own will...
Just now...

This. How can anyone really trust controlling them?

Because what you saw before was the Illusive Man being indoctrinated and using Reaper tech to mess up everything, not any sort of control of the Reapers.  Apples and oranges.

No. I don't believe IT theory and it has nothing to do with TIM or Anderson . It has everythiing to do with my not buying everything the Star Child said. He could be telling the turth but he could be wrong.

I also cannot forget  that ME1 and ME2  the reapers saw organics as beneath them.

[Meltemph]

Evil Minion wrote...

You can't eliminate "war" no matter what you do.

Therefore, "control" was the least obnoxious ending for me.

"Destroy" only kills the synthetic life in the current cycle. They can easily come back in the future and the #$%# just starts again.

The concept of the synthetics will always destroy organics, is either a writer not thinking properly about what he is infering or it is meant to be a premise rfor us to reject, as in not believe the child.  So I dont take much stock in the "idea" behind the catalyst.

[WindOverTuchanka]

I get Geneaux486's arguments, and agree with most of them (even though my character still takes Destroy, I , as a player, recognize Control's viability): the final cutscene seems to indicate that Control did, indeed, work as advertised, and possibly better than advertised: Reapers are being controlled, with the added bonus of Citadel being intact.

But there's this metagaming problem: Control is rendering both other options irrelevant. It's so flexible it can be spinned in too many directions.

It does 'destroy' better than Destroy: ordering the Reapers to fly into the black hole saves you from sacrificing the Geth.
 
What's even worse it does 'synthesis' better than Synthesis: the knowledge of how to perform Synthesis is there, in the Crucible, and the Crucible is not destroyed. You can choose to release it's blueprints and promote it to the public, allowing people to adopt new tech in a grassroots fashion, instead of forcing the augmentation down everyone's throat. This eliminates 'DNA rape'.

Viewing it as 'Synthesis without downsides' also solves kal_reegar's problem:

kal_reegar wrote...
If the star brat is real and honest, and the synthetics-organic war is inevitable, "Shepard" (who controls the reapers now) will have to commit the genocide of the advanced organics himself. Soon or later.
He has only delayed the next cycle. Reapers have won.

 

Essentially, Control feels like cheating. It becomes what  Destroy is to IT: the unbalanced option... I don't think it's right.

I also severely dislike the connotation that my Shepard  essentially
is single-handedly controlling the Reapers. It just makes him/her way too overpowered for my liking. Don't even get me started on the possibility of downloading yourself into multiple VI's across the galaxy... Just personal (anti)preference, though.

Modifié par WindOverTuchanka, 15 avril 2012 - 05:02 .

[Geneaux486]

Dragoni89 wrote...
Look at what you write and look at what decided at the end. Stop contridicting yourself. In your own words "If Shepard had stepped aside and let Saren go ahead with his plan, what
do you think would have happened?  If you actually think the end result
would have been synthesis, and not Soveriegn betraying Saren and
processing him along with all the other organics, then you haven't been
paying attention to how the Reapers think and act." Replace those with sheaprd and catalystit ( reaper god). Big contridcition here if you don't see it your a lost cause. Cause nothing is gonna go through that thick head of yours.

It's not a contradiction.  I was quite clear with what I was saying.  Synthesis is what Saren hoped to achieve via Reaper tech.  Control is what the Illusive Man hoped to achieve via Reaper tech.  Neither was possible, because the Reapers stick to their own goal no matter what.  The Crucible is not of Reaper origin, is not Reaper tech, and is capable of synthesis and control.  That is my point.  The means Saren and the Illusive man used made their goals impossible, but through the Crucible, which is not of the Reapers, it is possible.  That's not my opinion, that's not speculation, that's right there in the game.  You see it happen.  If you're going to call me thick-headed at least pay attention to what I'm actually saying. 

Indocrinated players lead to control and synsthesis ideology . These are reaper ideologies. Why is it considered reaper ideologies. Cause by chooosing both of these choices you are agreeing with the catalyst that sythetics will always kill organics. You are not giving humanity a chance of hope to solve their own probelms in the future. You are some how doing exactly what the reapers want. If you do not realise this than I can not be bothered to keep arguing with you cause obviously your in self denial and don't think.

Yeah, if I don't agree with you, I'm in self-denial or I don't think.  Get over yourself.  No, synthesis and control are not Reaper ideologies, they're lies that two antagonists were led to believe they could achieve by using Reaper tech.  They were illusions until the Crucible, which is not of Reaper origin, made them a reality.  That is the key difference, and that is why your argument fails.

Control and Synthesis are both ideaologies associated with reaper indocrination. Your arguing that the crucible is not reaper origin. But it uses the catalyst as  a source of Power which is of reaper origin. How the hell does the catalyst know so well what will happen once you made your choice? Does not matter if it is not the reapers who camp us with the concept. In the end it was still using reaper technology.

The Citadel is of Reaper origin, but it does not carry the same characteristics as the most volatile Reaper tech.  It doesn't indoctrinate, for instance.  It is a power source for the Crucible, nothing more.  The Crucible is still doing all the work. 

In last cycle there were two groups , one wanted control the other wanted to destroy. It was found out later the ones that wanted to control were the ones who were indocriniated. Control = associate with reaper ideology.

That is a logical fallacy.  It's like, say someone gives you a gun, telling you it's real, but it's actually a plastic toy or something.  You go and try to use it, and it fails, because it was never real.  Does that mean there are no real guns?  No.  Nothing about synthesis and control as they are achieved via the Crucible coincides with Reaper ideology. 

He JUST SAID IT. He said ALL synthetics would be destroyed, then reminded you how you are partly synthetic, that is BLATANT. Besides, I just thought you said we were supposed to take what the kid says at face value? So the kid doesnt know what he is talking about, and he was guessing....great.

At face value the Catalyst doesn't say "You will die."  He says "you are partly synthetic".  And the end result?  Shepard might die, or he might not, depending on how well the Crucible functions.  That is taking it at face value.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 05:03 .

[Dragoni89]

kingofkings276 wrote...

Control allows to take over the reapers and fly them into the sun without anybody dying. That already makes it the best ending, but if it also saves the relays that's another plus

Where do they get sent in to the sun? You playing a different game? Cause that clearly did not happen. In my blue ending maxed ems, the relay explodes. Am I talking to people who did not play the game?

[MJF JD]

look at all the speculation

[balance5050]

I'm glad more and more people are understanding the Catalyst may not be 100% honest.

[Meltemph]

I imagine it may have been similar to Legions "death." For Shepard to have control, obviously his/her mind still exists, though the body is disintegrated.

Ya, like I said, Shep is the new "Holy Spirit" of the galaxy.

Outside of that though, the child doesn't say your mind will survive, infact he makes sure not to just say you will die, but to also say you will lose everything you have. That doesnt sound like you are doing anything beyond the frame of touching the rods. Otherwise, why would he not jsut say, your conscious will take over? The "ambiguousness" has no point in it being said like that, unless it is meant to force the player to speculate what that means.

[Cobra's_back]

kingofkings276 wrote...

Control allows to take over the reapers and fly them into the sun without anybody dying. That already makes it the best ending, but if it also saves the relays that's another plus

He didn't say you can kill them. The reapers could rebel. Need final DLC to see what actually can happen. Ending is too vague at this time to know for sure.

[Meltemph]

At face value the Catalyst doesn't say "You will die." He says "you are partly synthetic". And the end result? Shepard might die, or he might not, depending on how well the Crucible functions. That is taking it at face value.

You are being so contradictory it is funny. He says all synthetics will die, he says you are partly synthetic, in the beginning of ME3 when you have a discussion with the Doc, you are reminded how synthetic you are, in ME2 you are SHOWN how synthetic you are, and is even talked about.

If you take that sentence at face value, before seeing the ending, it is quite clear to anyone who is used to talking with people, that he was trying to infer you would die, sicne he only brought it up in the DESTROY ending.

Unless you are saying that the writers put that there FOR NO GOOD REASON. It was meant to infer that your synthetics would be destroyed as well, which would kill him/her, since, you know, that is how he was brought back to life.

[kingofkings276]

Dragoni89 wrote...

kingofkings276 wrote...

Control allows to take over the reapers and fly them into the sun without anybody dying. That already makes it the best ending, but if it also saves the relays that's another plus

Where do they get sent in to the sun? You playing a different game? Cause that clearly did not happen. In my blue ending maxed ems, the relay explodes. Am I talking to people who did not play the game?

Nothing happens after that. They wanted people to create their own endings, to think, and if my Shepard had control of the reapers he would send them into the sun so everyone could be safe. If he was renegade maybe he would keep them around and do something similar to what the Illusive Man wanted.

[OdanUrr]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

kingofkings276 wrote...

Control allows to take over the reapers and fly them into the sun without anybody dying. That already makes it the best ending, but if it also saves the relays that's another plus

He didn't say you can kill them. The reapers could rebel. Need final DLC to see what actually can happen. Ending is too vague at this time to know for sure.

Funny you should say that:

http://social.biowar...405288#11405288

[Meltemph]

At face value the Catalyst doesn't say "You will die." He says "you are partly synthetic". And the end result? Shepard might die, or he might not, depending on how well the Crucible functions. That is taking it at face value.

Oh, I should also add... EDI can live, even her synthetic body in the destroy ending... another point, that goes to show taking everything at face value, is probably a bad idea, not to mention an incredibly simple way to write or observe an ending that is obviously meant to be ambiguous.

[Evil Minion]

Meltemph wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

You can't eliminate "war" no matter what you do.

Therefore, "control" was the least obnoxious ending for me.

"Destroy" only kills the synthetic life in the current cycle. They can easily come back in the future and the #$%# just starts again.

The concept of the synthetics will always destroy organics, is either a writer not thinking properly about what he is infering or it is meant to be a premise rfor us to reject, as in not believe the child.  So I dont take much stock in the "idea" behind the catalyst.

This is where I depart from most of the BSN fans.

I never felt Ghostdweeb was "reliable."

There's nothing saying they can't be running on screwed-up logic, or a misunderstanding of the universe, or about a thousand other things.

I don't care if The Catalyst is "correct" or not. The Reapers should mind their own business.

[kingofkings276]

Meltemph wrote...

At face value the Catalyst doesn't say "You will die." He says "you are partly synthetic". And the end result? Shepard might die, or he might not, depending on how well the Crucible functions. That is taking it at face value.

You are being so contradictory it is funny. He says all synthetics will die, he says you are partly synthetic, in the beginning of ME3 when you have a discussion with the Doc, you are reminded how synthetic you are, in ME2 you are SHOWN how synthetic you are, and is even talked about.

If you take that sentence at face value, before seeing the ending, it is quite clear to anyone who is used to talking with people, that he was trying to infer you would die, sicne he only brought it up in the DESTROY ending.

Unless you are saying that the writers put that there FOR NO GOOD REASON. It was meant to infer that your synthetics would be destroyed as well, which would kill him/her, since, you know, that is how he was brought back to life.

It's not a hard concept to grasp. He says you are partly synthetic, and synthetics will die. So if you choose the ending to 100% destroy the reapers, there's a chance you could die. The point of it is to make the decision difficult, to see if you are willing to sacrifice yourself.

[Cobra's_back]

kingofkings276 wrote...

Dragoni89 wrote...

kingofkings276 wrote...

Control allows to take over the reapers and fly them into the sun without anybody dying. That already makes it the best ending, but if it also saves the relays that's another plus

Where do they get sent in to the sun? You playing a different game? Cause that clearly did not happen. In my blue ending maxed ems, the relay explodes. Am I talking to people who did not play the game?

Nothing happens after that. They wanted people to create their own endings, to think, and if my Shepard had control of the reapers he would send them into the sun so everyone could be safe. If he was renegade maybe he would keep them around and do something similar to what the Illusive Man wanted.

Good point. Now the finally DLC may change that. The ending as it is did leave room for specualtion.

[Geneaux486]

Meltemph wrote...

At face value the Catalyst doesn't say "You will die." He says "you are partly synthetic". And the end result? Shepard might die, or he might not, depending on how well the Crucible functions. That is taking it at face value.

You are being so contradictory it is funny. He says all synthetics will die, he says you are partly synthetic, in the beginning of ME3 when you have a discussion with the Doc, you are reminded how synthetic you are, in ME2 you are SHOWN how synthetic you are, and is even talked about.

If you take that sentence at face value, before seeing the ending, it is quite clear to anyone who is used to talking with people, that he was trying to infer you would die, sicne he only brought it up in the DESTROY ending.

Unless you are saying that the writers put that there FOR NO GOOD REASON. It was meant to infer that your synthetics would be destroyed as well, which would kill him/her, since, you know, that is how he was brought back to life.

If you really want to take it at face value, at most you can say that the Catalyst was saying you would partly die because you're partly synthetic.  Shepard is still not a synthetic life.  And as I pointed out, he either dies or he doesn't. 

[Dragoni89]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Dragoni89 wrote...
Look at what you write and look at what decided at the end. Stop contridicting yourself. In your own words "If Shepard had stepped aside and let Saren go ahead with his plan, what
do you think would have happened?  If you actually think the end result
would have been synthesis, and not Soveriegn betraying Saren and
processing him along with all the other organics, then you haven't been
paying attention to how the Reapers think and act." Replace those with sheaprd and catalystit ( reaper god). Big contridcition here if you don't see it your a lost cause. Cause nothing is gonna go through that thick head of yours.

It's not a contradiction.  I was quite clear with what I was saying.  Synthesis is what Saren hoped to achieve via Reaper tech.  Control is what the Illusive Man hoped to achieve via Reaper tech.  Neither was possible, because the Reapers stick to their own goal no matter what.  The Crucible is not of Reaper origin, is not Reaper tech, and is capable of synthesis and control.  That is my point.  The means Saren and the Illusive man used made their goals impossible, but through the Crucible, which is not of the Reapers, it is possible.  That's not my opinion, that's not speculation, that's right there in the game.  You see it happen.  If you're going to call me thick-headed at least pay attention to what I'm actually saying. 

Indocrinated players lead to control and synsthesis ideology . These are reaper ideologies. Why is it considered reaper ideologies. Cause by chooosing both of these choices you are agreeing with the catalyst that sythetics will always kill organics. You are not giving humanity a chance of hope to solve their own probelms in the future. You are some how doing exactly what the reapers want. If you do not realise this than I can not be bothered to keep arguing with you cause obviously your in self denial and don't think.

Yeah, if I don't agree with you, I'm in self-denial or I don't think.  Get over yourself.  No, synthesis and control are not Reaper ideologies, they're lies that two antagonists were led to believe they could achieve by using Reaper tech.  They were illusions until the Crucible, which is not of Reaper origin, made them a reality.  That is the key difference, and that is why your argument fails.

Control and Synthesis are both ideaologies associated with reaper indocrination. Your arguing that the crucible is not reaper origin. But it uses the catalyst as  a source of Power which is of reaper origin. How the hell does the catalyst know so well what will happen once you made your choice? Does not matter if it is not the reapers who camp us with the concept. In the end it was still using reaper technology.

The Citadel is of Reaper origin, but it does not carry the same characteristics as the most volatile Reaper tech.  It doesn't indoctrinate, for instance.  It is a power source for the Crucible, nothing more.  The Crucible is still doing all the work. 

In last cycle there were two groups , one wanted control the other wanted to destroy. It was found out later the ones that wanted to control were the ones who were indocriniated. Control = associate with reaper ideology.

That is a logical fallacy.  It's like, say someone gives you a gun, telling you it's real, but it's actually a plastic toy or something.  You go and try to use it, and it fails, because it was never real.  Does that mean there are no real guns?  No.  Nothing about synthesis and control as they are achieved via the Crucible coincides with Reaper ideology. 

He JUST SAID IT. He said ALL synthetics would be destroyed, then reminded you how you are partly synthetic, that is BLATANT. Besides, I just thought you said we were supposed to take what the kid says at face value? So the kid doesnt know what he is talking about, and he was guessing....great.

At face value the Catalyst doesn't say "You will die."  He says "you are partly synthetic".  And the end result?  Shepard might die, or he might not, depending on how well the Crucible functions.  That is taking it at face value.

Sorry I already proven you wrong. Wether you chose to accepet the information given in the game is your own choice. I can't be bothered to type how your wrong cause your obviously choosing to ignore and interpret the information given about TIM and Saren in a 180 degrees.

Your example is not even close to what I am saying. Using a ending with lots of speculations is not gonna help your case. It is indocrination meaning reaper ideals are pushed or forced in the character. And nothing proves control and sysnthesis are not reaper ideologies. Everything given in the game proves that. I don't feel like arguing with someone who obviously ignoress this.

[tractrpl]

There's far too many questions than answers in the Control ending. Heh. What am I saying? There's far too many questions than answers in ANY of the endings. In my mind, yes, control is the best ending assuming you CAN actually control the reapers in any way you want and for all time. In my ending, I actually sent all of the Reapers into the nearest star, destroying all of them. However, in the ending DLC, it might turn out that such an option is not possible, or they may not say one way or the other whether or not destroying the Reapers through control is possible or not.

[Delta_V2]

The biggest problem I have with Control is how much control do you actually have? You see the Reapers leaving, but do you actually have control over their specific actions (like telling them to fly into the sun or using them as a glorified taxi service until the relays are rebuilt), or do you only control general directives (telling them to begin/end the cycle). I just think there are way too many unknowns and ways for it to go wrong.

[Geneaux486]

Dragoni89 wrote...
Sorry I already proven you wrong. Wether you chose to accepet the information given in the game is your own choice. I can't be bothered to type how your wrong cause your obviously choosing to ignore and interpret the information given about TIM and Saren in a 180 degrees.

Nothing I said was my interpretation, it's the information in the game.  Which you are ignoring.  You're comparing a lie that Saren and the Illusive Man believe to an event that you can witness happening at the end of the game.  My gun analogy is fitting in that sense.  The concepts themselves were impossible for Saren and the Illusive Man to acheive through the Reapers, but independent of the Reapers, not only are they possible, but they actually happen.  You are literally arguing with the game itself, not with me.  The game itself proved you wrong long before I did.

Your example is not even close to what I am saying. Using a ending with lots of speculations is not gonna help your case. It is indocrination meaning reaper ideals are pushed or forced in the character. And nothing proves control and sysnthesis are not reaper ideologies. Everything given in the game proves that. I don't feel like arguing with someone who obviously ignoress this.

Then by all means, quit responding to me, but don't sit there and act like it's because you're obviously right and I just won't listen to reason.  I've responded to you point by point every step of the way and explained why you were wrong about this particular issue.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 15 avril 2012 - 05:17 .

[Meltemph]

If you really want to take it at face value, at most you can say that the Catalyst was saying you would partly die because you're partly synthetic. Shepard is still not a synthetic life. And as I pointed out, he either dies or he doesn't.

Too bad that the child didn't just say "synthetic life". If his synthetics die, Shep dies.

[tractrpl]

Dragoni89 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Dragoni89 wrote...
Look at what you write and look at what decided at the end. Stop contridicting yourself. In your own words "If Shepard had stepped aside and let Saren go ahead with his plan, what
do you think would have happened?  If you actually think the end result
would have been synthesis, and not Soveriegn betraying Saren and
processing him along with all the other organics, then you haven't been
paying attention to how the Reapers think and act." Replace those with sheaprd and catalystit ( reaper god). Big contridcition here if you don't see it your a lost cause. Cause nothing is gonna go through that thick head of yours.

It's not a contradiction.  I was quite clear with what I was saying.  Synthesis is what Saren hoped to achieve via Reaper tech.  Control is what the Illusive Man hoped to achieve via Reaper tech.  Neither was possible, because the Reapers stick to their own goal no matter what.  The Crucible is not of Reaper origin, is not Reaper tech, and is capable of synthesis and control.  That is my point.  The means Saren and the Illusive man used made their goals impossible, but through the Crucible, which is not of the Reapers, it is possible.  That's not my opinion, that's not speculation, that's right there in the game.  You see it happen.  If you're going to call me thick-headed at least pay attention to what I'm actually saying. 

Indocrinated players lead to control and synsthesis ideology . These are reaper ideologies. Why is it considered reaper ideologies. Cause by chooosing both of these choices you are agreeing with the catalyst that sythetics will always kill organics. You are not giving humanity a chance of hope to solve their own probelms in the future. You are some how doing exactly what the reapers want. If you do not realise this than I can not be bothered to keep arguing with you cause obviously your in self denial and don't think.

Yeah, if I don't agree with you, I'm in self-denial or I don't think.  Get over yourself.  No, synthesis and control are not Reaper ideologies, they're lies that two antagonists were led to believe they could achieve by using Reaper tech.  They were illusions until the Crucible, which is not of Reaper origin, made them a reality.  That is the key difference, and that is why your argument fails.

Control and Synthesis are both ideaologies associated with reaper indocrination. Your arguing that the crucible is not reaper origin. But it uses the catalyst as  a source of Power which is of reaper origin. How the hell does the catalyst know so well what will happen once you made your choice? Does not matter if it is not the reapers who camp us with the concept. In the end it was still using reaper technology.

The Citadel is of Reaper origin, but it does not carry the same characteristics as the most volatile Reaper tech.  It doesn't indoctrinate, for instance.  It is a power source for the Crucible, nothing more.  The Crucible is still doing all the work. 

In last cycle there were two groups , one wanted control the other wanted to destroy. It was found out later the ones that wanted to control were the ones who were indocriniated. Control = associate with reaper ideology.

That is a logical fallacy.  It's like, say someone gives you a gun, telling you it's real, but it's actually a plastic toy or something.  You go and try to use it, and it fails, because it was never real.  Does that mean there are no real guns?  No.  Nothing about synthesis and control as they are achieved via the Crucible coincides with Reaper ideology. 

He JUST SAID IT. He said ALL synthetics would be destroyed, then reminded you how you are partly synthetic, that is BLATANT. Besides, I just thought you said we were supposed to take what the kid says at face value? So the kid doesnt know what he is talking about, and he was guessing....great.

At face value the Catalyst doesn't say "You will die."  He says "you are partly synthetic".  And the end result?  Shepard might die, or he might not, depending on how well the Crucible functions.  That is taking it at face value.

Sorry I already proven you wrong. Wether you chose to accepet the information given in the game is your own choice. I can't be bothered to type how your wrong cause your obviously choosing to ignore and interpret the information given about TIM and Saren in a 180 degrees.

Your example is not even close to what I am saying. Using a ending with lots of speculations is not gonna help your case. It is indocrination meaning reaper ideals are pushed or forced in the character. And nothing proves control and sysnthesis are not reaper ideologies. Everything given in the game proves that. I don't feel like arguing with someone who obviously ignoress this.

The destroy ending doesn't necessarily mean you won out of endoctrination. You initiate the destroy ending by damaging a crucial piece of equipment needed for the Crucible to operate. So in the end, you may have just "thought" you destroyed the Reapers, when in the end you just destroyed the only thing capable of actually killing them. I know, the cutscenes make it seem as though you succeeded, but if IT is to be believed, then none of the endings are real and they are all just hallucinations.