287 réponses à ce sujet

[Unit-Alpha]

Witcher 2.
Skyrim.
Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

[Roxy Lalonde]

I don't understand the backlash on girls who seek out female protagonist games. The game industry just isn't tailored to gender equality. It isn't. John Shepard was the only face of Mass Effect until Mass Effect 3, and even then I have to turn my cover inside-out to have a female Shepard. Which, of course, I still think is fantastic - but female isn't the default in gaming. Therefore, we're the minority. It's a patriarchy thing.

Nothing's wrong with trying to find a game with the option to play as a female, especially when one is looking for a role-playing game, which implies a higher degree of immersion than other games. Gender is quite possibly the first building block when it comes to introducing immersion, followed by the deciding of one's personality. Determinism when it comes to characterisation can break immersion.

Also, fellow Aussie OP - I hope you found some good game suggestions from this thread

Modifié par Roxy Lalonde, 16 avril 2012 - 10:40 .

[InsaneAzrael]

Roxy Lalonde wrote...

I don't understand the backlash on girls who seek out female protagonist games. The game industry just isn't tailored to gender equality. It isn't. John Shepard was the only face of Mass Effect until Mass Effect 3, and even then I have to turn my cover inside-out to have a female Shepard. Which, of course, I still think is fantastic - but female isn't the default in gaming. Therefore, we're the minority. It's a patriarchy thing.

Nothing's wrong with trying to find a game with the option to play as a female, especially when one is looking for a role-playing game, which implies a higher degree of immersion than other games. Gender is quite possibly the first building block when it comes to introducing immersion, followed by the deciding of one's personality. Determinism breaks immersion.

Also, fellow Aussie OP - I hope you found some good game suggestions from this thread

More girls should make, promote and play games then.

[DrowVampyre]

InsaneAzrael wrote...

Roxy Lalonde wrote...

I don't understand the backlash on girls who seek out female protagonist games. The game industry just isn't tailored to gender equality. It isn't. John Shepard was the only face of Mass Effect until Mass Effect 3, and even then I have to turn my cover inside-out to have a female Shepard. Which, of course, I still think is fantastic - but female isn't the default in gaming. Therefore, we're the minority. It's a patriarchy thing.

Nothing's wrong with trying to find a game with the option to play as a female, especially when one is looking for a role-playing game, which implies a higher degree of immersion than other games. Gender is quite possibly the first building block when it comes to introducing immersion, followed by the deciding of one's personality. Determinism breaks immersion.

Also, fellow Aussie OP - I hope you found some good game suggestions from this thread

More girls should make, promote and play games then.

Over 40% of gamers are girls...the people with the money are just all old (mostly white) guys that are living in some weird world where society hasn't changed since the 50s.

[Roxy Lalonde]

InsaneAzrael wrote...

More girls should make, promote and play games then.

It's not quite that easy. 
For example - a male might ask "why are there not as many female engineers?". As children, girls are given dolls by society. What do dolls do? Be dolls. Boys are given trucks and puzzle toys and all that. It's almost always society.

Modifié par Roxy Lalonde, 16 avril 2012 - 10:48 .

[InsaneAzrael]

DrowVampyre wrote...

InsaneAzrael wrote...

More girls should make, promote and play games then.

Over 40% of gamers are girls...the people with the money are just all old (mostly white) guys that are living in some weird world where society hasn't changed since the 50s.

Grow up.. Society has indeed changed and you are part of it. So get to grips with how people aren't intent on holding you back due to your chromosomes when chances are they are trying to keep their heads above water.

40% of players are girls? Wow, that means squat in production if those numbers don't reflect the devs and producers.

Girls want game protagonists to be the way they view them.. Make the games. MAKE THE GAMES. By all means, I'm not saying anything against the ideas you hold true. At present though you are complaining that the games don't suit female tastes, yet still expect an industry composed majoritively of men to simply comply with your demands. Those men were also players, but they had ideas for games and made them. Don't think it is only money that drives games into production.

So yeah, if you want those games so badly, step up and set a precedent by making them.. 

It's not quite that easy. 
For example - a male might ask "why are
there not as many female engineers?". As children, girls are given dolls
by society. What do dolls do? Be dolls. Boys are given trucks and
puzzle toys and all that. It's almost always society.

Yes and boys are conditioned to be mindless workhorses at the expense of having emotional connections to people. You know what, quit it. Your only exacerbating the problem by lauding its use. We are not simply X, Y or Z victims and the world will kick you in more than it will prop you up. That is the hard truth. Blame only makes us think the load is lighter. Its narcissistic BS.

Well seeing as you are aware of this fact, are you willing to conceive of breaking the conditioning. Do you genuinely give a damn about the games? Go make some. Learn it. Act on your passions.
Don't have the time.. Surely someone does. You know, someone who is passionate about the idea and is willing to devote time to it. Don't instantly assume that men are to blame, instead try something more proactive.

We are not all bloody conditioned zombies.

Modifié par InsaneAzrael, 16 avril 2012 - 11:06 .

[DarkShadow]

Ok, let's add some different ideas here:
Journey
Bastion
Still alive

[sth128]

Since I saw the ME3 ending I lost all hope in gaming as a medium and started reading.

Right now I'm reading "The Singularity Is Near" by Kurzweil who predicts that we will become Reapers in the near future.

Sweet...

[DrowVampyre]

InsaneAzrael wrote...

Grow up.. Society has indeed changed and you are part of it. So get to grips with how people aren't intent on holding you back due to your chromosomes when chances are they are trying to keep their heads above water.

40% of players are girls? Wow, that means squat in production if those numbers don't reflect the devs and producers.

Girls want game protagonists to be the way they view them.. Make the games. MAKE THE GAMES. By all means, I'm not saying anything against the ideas you hold true. At present though you are complaining that the games don't suit female tastes, yet still expect an industry composed majoritively of men to simply comply with your demands. Those men were also players, but they had ideas for games and made them. Don't think it is only money that drives games into production.

So yeah, if you want those games so badly, step up and set a precedent by making them.. 

Uh...I don't even know how to begin to address that, honestly. If a business doesn't want to make games that reflect the tastes of 40% of their entire industry's market, it's a bigger issue than you seem to believe. And for the record, people are intent on holding us back because we're women. Yes, less so than they were 50 years ago, and it's getting better, but it's a long way from equal.

This is an industry that makes billions of dollars every year - keeping their heads above water isn't the issue. Why do you think the industry is composed primarily of men? Could it be that, maybe, the execs keep hiring just you folks with dangly bits because they still have those prejudices and misconceptions about who plays the games? Could it be that they keep not hiring women to be the decision makers, despite there actually being plenty of qualified women to fill thjose roles? 

Modifié par DrowVampyre, 16 avril 2012 - 11:08 .

[DrowVampyre]

(Accidental double post while trying to fix a quote mishap - sorry.)

Modifié par DrowVampyre, 16 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[Metalunatic]

Shaedlance wrote...

I'm going to reload Witcher 1 and 2 and play them again. They are both great games. Geralt is badassness!

Agreed. I'm going for The Witcher's or Fallout New Vegas after I'm finished with my current ME3 playthrough.

[Roxy Lalonde]

Oh, OP - this is going to sound a bit dorky, but I love Harvest Moon: More Friends of Mineral Town for the GBA. You can emulate it quite easily. It's a fun way to burn time, and is pretty cool for a GBA game.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

Arkham City. It's not so much a game as a brooding-while-perched-on-a-gargoyle sim. Everything else is just gravy.

[InsaneAzrael]

DrowVampyre wrote...

This is an industry that makes billions of dollars every year - keeping their heads above water isn't the issue. Why do you think the industry is composed primarily of men? Could it be that, maybe, the execs keep hiring just you folks with dangly bits because they still have those prejudices and misconceptions about who plays the games? Could it be that they keep not hiring women to be the decision makers, despite there actually being plenty of qualified women to fill thjose roles? 

Read what I said again.. Seriously.

So get to grips with how people aren't intent on holding you back due to
your chromosomes when chances are they are trying to keep their heads
above water.

Seriously.. You are trying to cajole me into this BS. Its not just big AAA companies that are responsible for games out there. If there was enough interest in making what you say happen, then we could at the very least see more female developers actually producing indie games with female protagonists. Its not all about suits in ivory towers basing their perceptions on some gender-based politics. You are actually misrepresenting the conditions to suit your own agenda.

There may be qualified wome out there to suit roles within what you are assuming is gaming. But there are far fewer actively making games to fulfil their desires. It's not about making AAA games overnight. That would mean you want to demand the industry comply with your ideals. A vast majority of the industry actually consists of other firms and companies that make a wide variety of games. I would actually like to see more games made by women to be honest. I'd like to see women actually making more games and I may buy them, if they are good. Thats it though. If all the girl gamers you claim are really bothered by it, we would see the change. It isn't happening as you expect it though because you'd rather spend time complaining about it rather than getting to it from the grassroots.

[GuardianAngel470]

Hydrophobia is on sale right now on Steam for $1.24 for anyone interested.

[webhead921]

Jade Empire!

[rivqa]

DrowVampyre wrote...

InsaneAzrael wrote...

Grow up.. Society has indeed changed and you are part of it. So get to grips with how people aren't intent on holding you back due to your chromosomes when chances are they are trying to keep their heads above water.

40% of players are girls? Wow, that means squat in production if those numbers don't reflect the devs and producers.

Girls want game protagonists to be the way they view them.. Make the games. MAKE THE GAMES. By all means, I'm not saying anything against the ideas you hold true. At present though you are complaining that the games don't suit female tastes, yet still expect an industry composed majoritively of men to simply comply with your demands. Those men were also players, but they had ideas for games and made them. Don't think it is only money that drives games into production.

So yeah, if you want those games so badly, step up and set a precedent by making them.. 

Uh...I don't even know how to begin to address that, honestly. If a business doesn't want to make games that reflect the tastes of 40% of their entire industry's market, it's a bigger issue than you seem to believe. And for the record, people are intent on holding us back because we're women. Yes, less so than they were 50 years ago, and it's getting better, but it's a long way from equal.

This is an industry that makes billions of dollars every year - keeping their heads above water isn't the issue. Why do you think the industry is composed primarily of men? Could it be that, maybe, the execs keep hiring just you folks with dangly bits because they still have those prejudices and misconceptions about who plays the games? Could it be that they keep not hiring women to be the decision makers, despite there actually being plenty of qualified women to fill thjose roles? 

Yes this, although it's not always even conscious discrimination. In any industry pretty much, execs will hire people like them. If they're men, they're more likely to hire men. Typically women need to outperform men a LOT before their work will even be considered equal to men's. Oh, and they'll get paid less. It's pretty easy to claim that sexism no longer exists but study after study will prove you wrong. Check out Feminist Frequency's videos about women in popular culture to see the reality of it -- I think she's planning to tackle the topic of gaming soon too.

Anyway, it's obvious that it's no accident that I'm short of good games to play. But saying "women should just make games" really isn't as simple as it sounds.

[KingKhan03]

The Witcher 2 for xbox 360 arriving today.

[InsaneAzrael]

rivqa wrote...

Yes this, although it's not always even conscious discrimination. In any industry pretty much, execs will hire people like them. If they're men, they're more likely to hire men. Typically women need to outperform men a LOT before their work will even be considered equal to men's. Oh, and they'll get paid less.

If a person comes to you with an idea, An ambitious idea that to you seems legit. Do you ask how they will implement it? Do you ask how they cover the bases to realise the idea? That is what you claim is women needing to outperform men. Showing that this is what is required just happens to be a step down for male developers because years of male majority gaming (not just casual gaming but more dedicated gaming) has been the fruit of their ideas being implemented. Its not lesser performance, its more based in reality.

Designers use proof of concepts. Scientists use experimental evidence. Mathematicians use proofs (numerous calculations teasing out the answer). So at the end of the day, a new approach will inevitable require proof of effect. The influx of girl gamers relative to male gamers has only kicked off in the past 10-15 years. Particularly as the medium has evolved. Male gamers have been part of implementation and play since the start. It was a male scientist that used a oscilloscope to create pong, in 1958. Do the math. Female presence in gaming is relatively new. The actual medium has been going for nearly 6 times the amount of time as female gamer presence has been noted.

Add to that, the present percentage is approximately 40% (if we use the broadest category of gaming) and more about 33% if we narrow it down. The medium has changed over time. It has actually changed to the degree that your judgement actually recognises it. Why recognise it? Because of the insurmountable effort by males to make it go from hobbyist medium to popular entertainment medium. So yeah. Its not just about complaint, its about having the passion to pull the ideas out of your head and realising them. You don't think the prejudice wasn't against Bill Gates when him and his fellow geeks were playing with breadboard and solder, do ya? They worked hard to make computers the future. So no, women as a group have not outperformed men as a group. As individuals, each person can realise their passions with effort and devotion.

For example, Bioware here started as 3 passionate individuals wanting to make RPGs. 3 guys (just out of med school) with 100k went to it. Now you are here. Arguing against this concept in favour of some political narrative being responsible for keeping female gamers down. I'm not the only one making the argument. Women developer groups argue the same. There are actually women willing to pay scholarships to get girls to make games. SO MAKE THE BLEEDING GAMES.

Your pay-gap theory is also false, but this is about the games, not your political agenda.

It's pretty easy to claim that sexism no longer exists but study after
study will prove you wrong. Check out Feminist Frequency's videos about
women in popular culture to see the reality of it -- I think she's
planning to tackle the topic of gaming soon too.

Oh it exists as a concept. I can even put to you that you are being incredibly sexist by attempting to assert males are intentionally putting you down as a woman. Does this make the games you want? No.. It smooths out a narcissistic kink in wanting to ****** and moan.

Anyway, it's
obvious that it's no accident that I'm short of good games to play. But
saying "women should just make games" really isn't as simple as it
sounds.

You're not short of good games to play at all. You're just being very limited in your preferences. Saying women should just make games is exactly as it sounds. Difficulty was never a problem. The intricate technical aspects of designing a AAA standard game are what you are choosing to ignore. Which is more likely the problem?
A conspiracy keeping the female player down, or a lack of games made by women for women?

[rivqa]

 

InsaneAzrael wrote...
<snip>

Sexism isn't a conspiracy, it's a well-known fact. I'm not really interested in engaging with you about it when you clearly know so little about it. I don't see game development as being any different from any other industry, particularly other tech industries. If you're actually interested in some facts and broader opinions, here are some links:

• Gender pay gap in the US (Wikipedia for convenience)
• Sexism in the workplace
• Feminist Frequency
• Feminism 101 blog

Modifié par rivqa, 17 avril 2012 - 10:41 .

[DrowVampyre]

Y'know, I hesitate to call you sexist, but you have some very...warped perceptions. But you're never going to accept any argument to the contrary, and we've already derailed this thread horribly, so rather than keep shouting at each other, let me just say this:

The prejudice faced by early male gamers is nowhere near that faced by female gamers now insofar as it concerns getting support to actually "make the games" as you say. That's completely ignoring that from the youngest age girls aren't, as a group (at least in American society), encouraged and socialized to value basically anything that goes into "making the games", and more importantly, that same society doesn't tend to value even the ones who do.

Moreover, how precisely do you propose that women "just makes the games" if they can't get funding? Kickstarter is an option, but it's one that just got here, and people are watching to see what happens with it. See, you can't really make games with no money to make games, you need to have but the ability and the means - ability alone doesn't cut it. So the "lack of games made by women for women" is a product of the larger problem. And no one argued that it's a conspiracy - it's not like we have this idea that there are a bunch of guys in a back room whispering and plotting. It's subconscious, an issue of perceptions, values, and preconceptions.

But you know what? We actually are "getting to it from the grassroots", as you say. That's exactly what seeking out the kind of games we want is...because I'm no developer, nor writer, nor anything else that would help "make the games". I doubt Rivqa is either, same as the vast majority of people here or in the world at large. So what can we do? Well...we can't directly make the kind of games we want, but we can buy only those kind, so that hopefully, eventually, the people who control the funding will see those games in a better light, see that female protagonists do sell, and to a market sector that has really barely been tapped, and greenlight them. You know, basically exactly like we're doing here with the line holding - I, and Rivqa, and other people who feel as we do, are holding our own line, we just don't have a centralized location where we talk about it.

Modifié par DrowVampyre, 17 avril 2012 - 10:42 .

[InsaneAzrael]

[quote]DrowVampyre wrote...

Y'know, I hesitate to call you sexist, but you have some very...warped perceptions. But you're never going to accept any argument to the contrary, and we've already derailed this thread horribly, so rather than keep shouting at each other, let me just say this:
[/quote]

You know, you probably hesitate to call me sexist because I am not actually being sexist. So far my arguments are about women being there and representing themselves in games as they want. It does involve making the effort to get together and realise the dream. I've also argued in not being dependent on others to do it for you. Regardless of sex this is not a distorted idea, simply because if there is a will, there can be a way. It takes time and a butlload of effort and no-one can honestly say its easy. It's about redirecting the energy of being passive-aggressive or aggressive against a perceived threat into instrumentalising it.

tl;dr - Haters gonna hate, I'll be over here making awesome creations.

To Rivqa and DrowVampyre..

I've made arguments against using the inevitable discrimination of differing opinions to be the basis for complaining and filibustering the authentic production of the games you want. I have made several points on how what you want takes effort and you are making this an agenda for your ideals.


You are now dismissing a counterpoint to your claims based on a prejudice of my character. Are you willing to let your political agenda rest for the sake of the thread? Apparently not as you have been berating pragmatic counters to your argument in favour of political doublespeak and kafka-trial logic.

[quote]
The prejudice faced by early male gamers is nowhere near that faced by female gamers now insofar as it concerns getting support to actually "make the games" as you say.
[/quote]

Discrimination is discrimination. Its not always about who is the biggest victim. You said yourself there are numerous girls out there who play games. Then those girls getting together and making the games is actually on par with what men having been doing since the start of gaming, computing, technology, science, mathematics, engineering, what have you. Its all about creating the medium. If its not there.. create it.

[quote]
That's completely ignoring that from the youngest age girls aren't, as a group (at least in American society), encouraged and socialized to value basically anything that goes into "making the games", and more importantly, that same society doesn't tend to value even the ones who do.
[/quote]

So apparently I am misrepresenting a female-orientated narrative in favour of a male one? No, that is your projection. You may be paying attention to it, but your wasting energy on arguing. Particularly wasting time on arguing a very biased and very distorted patriarchy BS narrative too. Psychological abusiveness is still abuse, I agree. Stating that it is one sex versus another remains a form of psychological abuse. I will not be abused by the idea that my sex is keeping you from getting to it. Men are also socialised. To remove themselves from their sex. To get to work on things. To provide, to create, to adapt. And it is often done to their own detriment. Women who abuse men psychologically by saying they are refusing to recognise them without doing and providing are assuming sex to be the dominant case in production.

Let me try a little counterfoiling. If we assume for a second the socialisation argument has full value:
(apologies of the context)
Meritocratic philosophy, which is a common value in male philosophy is what determines value in the male socialisation. So if you think that it should apply differently to women, you are basing it on a socialised value also. The one whereby a female is a human being and a male is not. A male is only a human doing.
I actually don't fully agree with either philosophy as a whole. But don't start barking at me like I cannot understand. That's not only arrogant, its intentionally demeaning.

So I can admit my initial statement was terse. "Women should make, promote and play more games". That was a single statement.
But what you are doing is arguing that the whole thing is a big logical bomb strapped to the female psyche. You are demeaning yourself here, men don't need to do it. Making yourself into a passive victim is what I am arguing against.

[quote]
Moreover, how precisely do you propose that women "just makes the games" if they can't get funding? Kickstarter is an option, but it's one that just got here, and people are watching to see what happens with it. See, you can't really make games with no money to make games, you need to have but the ability and the means - ability alone doesn't cut it.
[/quote]

Get a group of people together. Make a plan. Pool funds. Apply time and effort into accumulating, refining and producing the means. Then get to it.. I've already stated that it doesn't happen overnight. I'm not being impatient with the idea, you are. I gave you an example of how the video game industry came a long way. Based on a lot of passion and effort. That women only came late to the party. So in all fairness, your undermining yourself here.
Ability alone indeed doesn't cut it. Neither does expecting a solution being presented to you rather than actively creating it. You argue the industry at present isn't accomodating you idea without the merit of active contribution being involved. I'm arguing that women need to contribute more to change the medium.

[quote]
So the "lack of games made by women for women" is a product of the larger problem. And no one argued that it's a conspiracy - it's not like we have this idea that there are a bunch of guys in a back room whispering and plotting. It's subconscious, an issue of perceptions, values, and preconceptions.
[/quote]

Yeah it is part of a larger problem. In fact we may both be in agreement of what that is, but attribute very different causal factors to it. I am arguing that women are not actually making games themselves. You know, amongst themselves for themselves. There is a lack of women who are actively putting themselves into the medium. Not that there is a conditioning involved, but that even when it is evident that there is a lack, they aren't actually coming together to solve the problem themselves. Choosing instead (like yourself) to place the blame on society, men, the industry - place the blame anywhere but on their own inaction and passivity.

[quote]
But you know what? We actually are "getting to it from the grassroots", as you say. That's exactly what seeking out the kind of games we want is...because I'm no developer, nor writer, nor anything else that would help "make the games". I doubt Rivqa is either, same as the vast majority of people here or in the world at large. So what can we do?
[/quote]

And although there is a majority who don't there is still amateurs and indie developers who do. It still remains surprising that you ignore these people in favour of high-status AAA developers. I'll give you an example of how people get in and make a change without money. Bethesda hired modders from the community to work on FO:NV. What did these modders do? They modded the game in their free time. They contributed to the new game and actually got experience in a field. These people could make their own games and have experience to show for it. They could take out a loan and make a game if they wanted.

[quote]
Well...we can't directly make the kind of games we want, but we can buy only those kind, so that hopefully, eventually, the people who control the funding will see those games in a better light, see that female protagonists do sell, and to a market sector that has really barely been tapped, and greenlight them.
[/quote]

Yeah, you can.. anyone can. Since investors can do something like that its ok. However, if you want to tap the market harder, then you can also acknowledge what I am saying. Tap the market.

to paraphrase your argument:
Purchasing power is passive. We consumers are so dependent on the industry, indeed. Do we love games enough to actually put in the time and effort? Nah, its not that important after all.. Wait, what?

Dead horses being flogged in here.. All this time and effort being wasted in complaining that we are scripted narratives rather than narrators in our own rights. Victims, not agents. Its all so melodramatic. Just get to it.. If you can't solve the problem yourself, step back and support those who are - actively.

[quote]
You know, basically exactly like we're doing here with the line holding - I, and Rivqa, and other people who feel as we do, are holding our own line, we just don't have a centralized location where we talk about it.[/quote]
[/quote]

"We just don't have a centralized location where we talk about it" - Why not?
This is the internet. I would never have had this discussion with you if this forum didn't exist. But I would have had other means to discuss similar issues. If I didn't I could make a free forum and go on facebook, twitter, whatever to spread the word. Yet again, you do have means of doing it, your just not putting in the effort.

Here: Free forums - make a forum then.

As much as I sympathise with holding the line (and the wallet) I still didn't apply the broad brush stroke to all games. I joined the line because of consumer rights too. But because of a poor quality and misleading advertisement. Dedication to the series is one thing, but if I get mislead by something I put it to where I feel compelled. Do I hate on the company? Not entirely, I was pissed that the game was effortlessly messed up.

I already mentioned how there are women in the industry who promote women entering the industry for the exact purposes of realising what yourself and Rivqa want. Why not contribute to them?
Here: Scholarship promotes women in the gaming industry

I spent less than 5 minutes actually coming up with two contributions to your issues. I have no investment in your arguments. Yet there you have it.. Possibilities. If you did the same this thread would have been unnecessary.

[InsaneAzrael]

rivqa wrote...

 

InsaneAzrael wrote...
<snip>

Sexism isn't a conspiracy, it's a well-known fact. I'm not really interested in engaging with you about it when you clearly know so little about it. I don't see game development as being any different from any other industry, particularly other tech industries. If you're actually interested in some facts and broader opinions, here are some links:

• Gender pay gap in the US (Wikipedia for convenience)
• Sexism in the workplace
• Feminist Frequency
• Feminism 101 blog

Oh I agree that sexism is real.. But misogyny isn't the only form. You want to argue feminism - this is not the place.. If you are interested in facts regarding the pay gap and the effects of social inequities for both sides..

There is more to that stuff than your sources actually consider.

Check out:
Warren Farrel - Why men earn more: The startling truth behind the pay gap and what women can do about it.
Erin Pizzey - She was active in helping provide solutions to domestic violence. She was a feminist and was violently ousted and threatened by radical feminists because she saw there was male victimisation also.
Christiana Hoff Summers - makes some quite expressive counter-arguments to the points in Feminist Frequencies vids. Check out some of her books.

Frankly, I'm not ignorant of gender politics. So please, don't patronise me.

[Jadebaby]

OMG I just went looking through buried threads to find this OP...

Pre-order Dragon's Dogma and download the demo.. It looks amazing! =)

[rivqa]

Aw thanks for thinking of me! It looks great, but seems like it's only on Xbox and Playstation ... maybe it'll come out on PC one day.