189 réponses à ce sujet

[bEVEsthda]

 
I try to be positive about what was hinted at PAX, and keep a good mood about DA3. But:..
Excuse me, I know that I have warned about this many times before. I don't want to come on as nagging or repetitive. Still, I also got disturbing vibes from PAX. I have this creeping feeling that Bioware might have been listening more to feedback from fans who already like DA2, than investigating why those who disliked DA2 with such vehemence, did so. If that is the case, the only thing that DA3 will accomplish is that the DA2-fans will get a better, more polished game. Will that sell?

[Cydas]

I believe they are trying to create an RPG that will attract huge masses to play the game(like Skyrim) but they fail to realize the true fans of their series are ones that want a hardcore RPG like DA:O...

[Mmw04014]

Yeah, I get that feeling too. Even though all the devs have remarked that DA2 had flaws, they are also quick to defend it. I don't really expect anything less of course, but they seem to only be talking all about what they are keeping from DA2, the voiced protagonist, the dialogue wheel, the iconic looks (even if not in the same form). All that leads me to believe that they are simply going to try to improve on the DA2 model. They have said they want to take the good parts of Origins as well, but I haven't seen anyone say anything concrete about what that is, while we have multiple examples of things they want to keep from DA2.

Of course, I plan to wait longer to make a real opinion on this. I understand it's far too early to be talking about most game concepts in depth. However, my trust in Bioware is very shaky right now so it's easy for me to feel as you do.

Modifié par Mmw04014, 15 avril 2012 - 01:37 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't see how that impression could be obtained when the presentation at PAX highlighted some of the main concerns addressed by a large number of players, and not anything solely called out by people who liked DA2.

The devs are still working on DA3, and they are striving to not discuss too much of their direction without having something that they can show their player audience. From David Gaider's blog on follower customization:

"Why aren’t you telling us about [insert other topic here]?

As Mark stated in his initial thread about discontinuing the production of new content for DAII, we’re committing to show-not-tell whenever possible. We’re certainly aware that people have questions about combat, follower interaction and more, but until we can actually demonstrate our direction we want to keep quiet about it."

So it's really too early and a bit unfair at this juncture to say that they are only listening to group A versus group B, or that they are ignoring any particular group. 

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 15 avril 2012 - 01:38 .

[Pzykozis]

Cydas wrote...

I believe they are trying to create an RPG that will attract huge masses to play the game(like Skyrim) but they fail to realize the true fans of their series are ones that want a hardcore RPG like DA:O...

Yes.. because really this is just a mask!

@Eve, I don't know really, what makes you feel that? hard to even try and address any problem you have when it doesn't really speak of anything specific. Also why is it thought always that the devs are shackled wholesale to what specific fans of theirs want? I mean sure they have to be mindful but they need to make the game they want to make first and foremost otherwise everyone loses.

[ianvillan]

Iam resigned to the fact that the Bioware games of old are no more, The new direction Bioware is going in is a Cinematic Experience.

This means the next game will be more DA2 than DAO, and nothing we say will change it but we should still tell them how we think they should change and what to improve, Hopefully they may implement some of our ideas and that can make a better cinematic game, it wont be a RPG that I would like but at least I know what I will be getting and that will be a cinematic experience.

[Pedrak]

They're just doing what big companies do in public, that is minimizing the problems of their product (since they can't flat out deny them) and keeping silent about what might disappoint about the following game while keeping every statement as generic and uncompromising as possible.

They can't say "Exploration was awful in DA2, we're giving it a complete overhaul!"... they'll say "We're creating a bigger game world - we want to explore new possibilities and directions in Thedas. We're taking inspiration from Skyrim.", Fan: "So will the game have NPCs with daily routines and a night-and-day cycle and different cities and..." "Er... we'll see. But maybe, we're talking about cool features such as allowing to customize the companions' armors, even dye them! Not a promise, but an intriguing possibility we're considering". "But about exploration, how big will the game wor..." "Sorry, gotta go!" (sound of running footsteps, car opening and speeding off)

Modifié par Pedrak, 15 avril 2012 - 01:54 .

[AkiKishi]

bEVEsthda wrote...

 
I try to be positive about what was hinted at PAX, and keep a good mood about DA3. But:..
Excuse me, I know that I have warned about this many times before. I don't want to come on as nagging or repetitive. Still, I also got disturbing vibes from PAX. I have this creeping feeling that Bioware might have been listening more to feedback from fans who already like DA2, than investigating why those who disliked DA2 with such vehemence, did so. If that is the case, the only thing that DA3 will accomplish is that the DA2-fans will get a better, more polished game. Will that sell?

Makes sense, they have likely already written off the lost fans from DA and are looking to expand on the people who bought DA2. They are in a bad posistion because of ME3 as well, not really anything they can do about that, but it's another hurdle DA3 did not need.

[GodWood]

Cydas wrote...
I believe they are trying to create an RPG that will attract huge masses to play the game(like Skyrim) but they fail to realize the true fans of their series are ones that want a hardcore RPG like DA:O...

It's a business strategy I simply can not comprehend.

They create a critically acclaimed RPG that's their biggest commericial success to date (DA:O). Then they rush out a sequel that's nothing like it and panned by fans and critics alike. (DA2)

So what do they do?

They keep trying to polish the fail sequel. (DA2)

It's just so ... illogical.

[ianvillan]

GodWood wrote...

Cydas wrote...
I believe they are trying to create an RPG that will attract huge masses to play the game(like Skyrim) but they fail to realize the true fans of their series are ones that want a hardcore RPG like DA:O...

It's a business strategy I simply can not comprehend.

They create a critically acclaimed RPG that's their biggest commericial success to date (DA:O). Then they rush out a sequel that's nothing like it and panned by fans and critics alike. (DA2)

So what do they do?

They keep trying to polish the fail sequel. (DA2)

It's just so ... illogical.

Its not about making the best game its about making a game that will apeal to the most consumers, hence the introduction of the mass effect wheel and voiced dialogue.

[GodWood]

ianvillan wrote...

GodWood wrote...
It's a business strategy I simply can not comprehend.

They create a critically acclaimed RPG that's their biggest commericial success to date (DA:O). Then they rush out a sequel that's nothing like it and panned by fans and critics alike. (DA2)

So what do they do?

They keep trying to polish the fail sequel. (DA2)

It's just so ... illogical.

Its not about making the best game its about making a game that will apeal to the most consumers, hence the introduction of the mass effect wheel and voiced dialogue.

I'm not even talking about making a 'best game'.

DA:O sold more then both ME games. It would only be logical to keep expanding on that as opposed to alienating large chunks of the fanbase in an attempt to attract an audience that is simply not interested.

[FedericoV]

bEVEsthda wrote...

I try to be positive about what was hinted at PAX, and keep a good mood about DA3. But:..
Excuse me, I know that I have warned about this many times before. I don't want to come on as nagging or repetitive. Still, I also got disturbing vibes from PAX. I have this creeping feeling that Bioware might have been listening more to feedback from fans who already like DA2, than investigating why those who disliked DA2 with such vehemence, did so. If that is the case, the only thing that DA3 will accomplish is that the DA2-fans will get a better, more polished game. Will that sell?

I don't want to sound like a cyinic but I don't get much of the excitement about DA3 Panel. It's good and all that they are listening to the feedback but that does not mean a lot until we start to see something real. Even DA2 was developed with the feedback to DA:O in mind.

Varied areas, customizazion, choices and consequences: is someone really excited for the inclusion of such features? AAA-RPG should not even be published in our age without those things, they are the minimum requirements in my view. I mean, you cannot honestly believe that the RPG crowd would consider cinematic storytelling as a fair trade off for those things.

Having said all of that, I don't want to express any negative judgement untill I see the real things and I appreciate the position of the devs on that front (don't talk about things you are not ready to present). But if there is no reason to be negative at that point, there are even less reasons to be excited.

Modifié par FedericoV, 15 avril 2012 - 02:06 .

[ianvillan]

GodWood wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

GodWood wrote...
It's a business strategy I simply can not comprehend.

They create a critically acclaimed RPG that's their biggest commericial success to date (DA:O). Then they rush out a sequel that's nothing like it and panned by fans and critics alike. (DA2)

So what do they do?

They keep trying to polish the fail sequel. (DA2)

It's just so ... illogical.

Its not about making the best game its about making a game that will apeal to the most consumers, hence the introduction of the mass effect wheel and voiced dialogue.

I'm not even talking about making a 'best game'.

DA:O sold more then both ME games. It would only be logical to keep expanding on that as opposed to alienating large chunks of the fanbase in an attempt to attract an audience that is simply not interested.

I totaly agree DA:O was the better game and sold more yet somehow Bioware still believes DA2 is the way to head and that can only be because they want to attract non RPG players, Attracting non RPG players is a good goal but not at the expence of your current fan base.

[I Like Cats And]

Yeah if Bioware only takes in what they are hearing from this site and the conventions then there's no hope for DA3. 4chan has it right on this one.

[bEVEsthda]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I don't see how that impression could be obtained when the presentation at PAX highlighted some of the main concerns addressed by a large number of players, and not anything solely called out by people who liked DA2.

The devs are still working on DA3, and they are striving to not discuss too much of their direction without having something that they can show their player audience. From David Gaider's blog on follower customization:

"Why aren’t you telling us about [insert other topic here]?

As Mark stated in his initial thread about discontinuing the production of new content for DAII, we’re committing to show-not-tell whenever possible. We’re certainly aware that people have questions about combat, follower interaction and more, but until we can actually demonstrate our direction we want to keep quiet about it."

So it's really too early and a bit unfair at this juncture to say that they are only listening to group A versus group B, or that they are ignoring any particular group. 

 
Because I also believe that much dislike for DA2 has very little to do with that the game "feels rushed" or that it features reused environments, falling enemies, or other "objective" and analysed flaws. I suspect that some people involving themselves in that discussion, either are people who are mainly fine with DA2, or have been funnelled into that role in the heated discussions here, where very concise and tangible issues are demanded for arguments. These discussions aren't only shaped by complaints, but also by fans claiming advantages for DA2, which then leads to detailed counter-claims, etc.



The reason I believe these things, comes from using my own reference frame.
Maybe a major reason for dislike has got a bit lost or downplayed. Because I know with absolute conviction that my own dislike for DA2 is entirely based on what type of game DA2 is. What kind of game it tries to be.

Let me use an example: TW2 is in gameplay details pretty far from what I like: Fixed protagonist (male even), action combat, no customization to talk of. And yet, from the moment I started TW2, it felt like a fresh wind cleansing my soul. Cleansing my soul from frustration, annoyance, irritation, anger. Like a big exhale of relief.   ...All after DA2.

Why? Because it's still at heart a cRPG that takes itself seriously as RPG. It's not some lightweight console brawler.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 16 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[whykikyouwhy]

bEVEsthda wrote...
 And yet, from the moment I started TW2, it felt like a fresh wind cleansing my soul. Cleansing my soul from frustration, annoyance, irritation, anger. Like a big exhale of relief.   ...All after DA2.

So...you're saying that TW2 was like a York Peppermint Patty? 

Huh. Who knew. <_<

[bEVEsthda]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...
 And yet, from the moment I started TW2, it felt like a fresh wind cleansing my soul. Cleansing my soul from frustration, annoyance, irritation, anger. Like a big exhale of relief.   ...All after DA2.

So...you're saying that TW2 was like a York Peppermint Patty? 

Huh. Who knew. <_<

Not at all like that, no. A cleansing. Relaxation. A relief. Release from tensions. Because someone is still very consciously aware of what they create and why they want that. And thus prove to the world, which for no reason at all has convinced itself of other things, that it can still be done. Just as always.
(But combat sucks in TW2. Just as in Skyrim. Somehow I seem to be able to live with that. Combat is not important)

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 15 avril 2012 - 02:44 .

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

GodWood wrote...

Cydas wrote...
I believe they are trying to create an RPG that will attract huge masses to play the game(like Skyrim) but they fail to realize the true fans of their series are ones that want a hardcore RPG like DA:O...

It's a business strategy I simply can not comprehend.

They create a critically acclaimed RPG that's their biggest commericial success to date (DA:O). Then they rush out a sequel that's nothing like it and panned by fans and critics alike. (DA2)

So what do they do?

They keep trying to polish the fail sequel. (DA2)

It's just so ... illogical.

THIS CONFUSES ME, TOO.

[AkiKishi]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Cydas wrote...
I believe they are trying to create an RPG that will attract huge masses to play the game(like Skyrim) but they fail to realize the true fans of their series are ones that want a hardcore RPG like DA:O...

It's a business strategy I simply can not comprehend.

They create a critically acclaimed RPG that's their biggest commericial success to date (DA:O). Then they rush out a sequel that's nothing like it and panned by fans and critics alike. (DA2)

So what do they do?

They keep trying to polish the fail sequel. (DA2)

It's just so ... illogical.

THIS CONFUSES ME, TOO.

The metric data from DA:O freaked them out.

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

BobSmith101 wrote...

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Cydas wrote...
I believe they are trying to create an RPG that will attract huge masses to play the game(like Skyrim) but they fail to realize the true fans of their series are ones that want a hardcore RPG like DA:O...

It's a business strategy I simply can not comprehend.

They create a critically acclaimed RPG that's their biggest commericial success to date (DA:O). Then they rush out a sequel that's nothing like it and panned by fans and critics alike. (DA2)

So what do they do?

They keep trying to polish the fail sequel. (DA2)

It's just so ... illogical.

THIS CONFUSES ME, TOO.

The metric data from DA:O freaked them out.

THAT'S A GOOD POINT. IT GOES TO SHOW THAT IT'S MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE TO LISTEN TO WHAT PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU ABOUT WHAT THEY LIKE ABOUT YOUR GAME THAN IT IS TO LOOK AT DECONTEXTUALIZED METRICS WITH NO REAL BASIS FOR COMPARISON AND GUESS WHAT THEY LIKE ABOUT YOUR GAME.

[Cultist]

I doubt BioWare have any say in the matter. They are ordered to make arcade and action-oriented slasher from successful franchise. This will generate some short-time profits from CoD Crowd but RPG fans will be inevitably cast out. Same happened with C&C4 - fans complained but Electronic Arts LA just said that people could not understand how perfect and wonderful new C&C is. result - absolute catastrophe and death of franchize.

[AkiKishi]

I've just been watching a lot of Dragons Dogma footage and I'm honestly starting to question if there is even a place for DA2 type combat.

[Dejajeva]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Why? Because it's still at heart a cRPG that takes itself seriously as RPG. It's not some juvenile console romp for teenagers with some attention disorder.

I just want to take a minute to address this, because if you are insinuating that DA2 is exactly that- a juvenile console romp for teenagers with some attention disorder, I am incredibly offended. I am one of those console players that enjoyed DA2. I may not agree with everything that anyone says here- and I do stand up for DA2 and Bioware often. But I am thirty years old. I have a job and a life and a family.  I have a college education. And I play on console. I enjoy playing on console. I like it better on console. And I am neither a teenager or juvenile nor do I have an attention disorder.

I have tried to ask questions and be respectful- to try to understand why people dislike console players and casual gamers. You think they had to dumb your game down in order to make it for console players. I get that. I get that the xbox can't do what the PC does. And I feel for you. But do not group all console players into one category. I am an adult, and I'm not stupid and nobody has to dumb anything down for me. Those arguments are getting old.

[deuce985]

I've been a Bioware fan since Baldur's Gate. I love "hardcore" RPGs or cRPGs.

I think DA2 was Bioware's worst game. Does that mean it was bad? No. It was actually a pretty decent game. What frustrated me so much about DA2 is at every corner you can see potential and flashes of "this game is going to crush DA:O". But it never did. Everything was rushed. Level design, streamlined skills, rushed writing and character development.

With that being said, I thought they had a good general idea for their direction on combat. I want a RPG that's fast and fluid but still keeps the strategic gameplay without sacrificing too many RPG elements. Does DA2's combat still need polish? Sure. They could remove things like the ninja spawning. But overall, what people fail to realize, is it's DA:O faster...more fluid and a new coat of paint. It's not as different as some on here claim. I'd even argue DA2 is far more tactical than DA:O on Nightmare. You can block chokepoints with Warriors, you need to position perfectly or hurt your teammates, combo spells come into play far more in DA2, IMO.

Bioware's idea was right in DA2, it just needed more polish. Seriously. This is coming from someone who absolutely adored games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. I can see why people are upset about the combat. But I say...go with it. I don't think it sacrificed the core as many people here claim. I don't want to sit there and watch animation take 2 minutes to finish. DA:O's combat was slow and strategic. DA2's combat was fast and strategic. I like a more fluid and visceral combat system...which is what DA2's combat is. Why does RPGs have to follow mechanics from 15 years ago? Can't they evolve to be more interesting too?

My experience in combat might be a little different because I realize not everybody plays the game on nightmare. Plus it is the PC version. Not sure how different the combat is. DA:O's combat felt a lot different on PC compared to console for me. I'd like the tactical camera to come back in DA3.

Modifié par deuce985, 15 avril 2012 - 04:40 .