189 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

bEVEsthda wrote...
 
I try to be positive about what was hinted at PAX, and keep a good mood about DA3. But:..
Excuse me, I know that I have warned about this many times before. I don't want to come on as nagging or repetitive. Still, I also got disturbing vibes from PAX. I have this creeping feeling that Bioware might have been listening more to feedback from fans who already like DA2, than investigating why those who disliked DA2 with such vehemence, did so. If that is the case, the only thing that DA3 will accomplish is that the DA2-fans will get a better, more polished game. Will that sell?

Bioware doesn't design games by committee, nor should they. Feedback from fans (especially forum feedback) should not be (and is not) the only avenue of determining what to do with the next game. First and foremost, Bioware makes the games that they want to make. If they simply followed the old game formulas without their leadership strongly believing in it, you'd get a mediocre product at best, no matter how much time they spent on it.

Bioware (and every game company with titles in development) has a master plan in mind, and incorporates the feedback that they feel will make the game better according to this plan. The core systems of the plan itself aren't going to change, not unless the big boss of the project decides to do so.

If you want them to change any of these core principles, then you've got three options:

• Convince the executive producer that he doesn't want what he says he wants (In this case, you should be talking to Mark Darrah)
• Convince the executive producer's bosses to hire you as replacement executive producer on the project while the project is still early enough to make these changes
• Find another company who makes a game with a plan more in line with your desires.

Basically, they're making cookies, and you want ice cream. Feedback about cookies will go further than feedback about ice cream.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 15 avril 2012 - 04:51 .

[Cultist]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bioware doesn't design games by committee, nor should they. Feedback from fans (especially forum feedback) should not be (and is not) the only avenue of determining what to do with the next game. First and foremost, Bioware makes the games that they want to make. If they simply followed the old game formulas without their leadership strongly believing in it, you'd get a mediocre product at best, no matter how much time they spent on it.

Bioware (and every game company with titles in development) has a master plan in mind, and incorporates the feedback that they feel will make the game better according to this plan. The core systems of the plan itself aren't going to change, not unless the big boss of the project decides to do so.

If you want them to change any of these core principles, then you've got three options:

• Convince the executive producer that he doesn't want what he says he wants (In this case, you should be talking to Mark Darrah)
• Convince the executive producer's bosses to hire you as replacement executive producer on the project while the project is still early enough to make these changes
• Find another company who makes a game with a plan more in line with your desires.

Basically, they're making cookies, and you want ice cream. Feedback about cookies will go further than feedback about ice cream.

The problem is - BioWare made great cookies, and now they are making foul ice cream.
Dragon Age 2 sold two times worse than DA: Origins(first ten weeks). It's safe to say that it is a disaster for franchise that had such a wonderful start. And arcade\\action fanbase they attempted to attract failed to compensate "Hardcore RPG" fanbase that shunned the game.

[deuce985]

That begs the question on how DA3 will recover for the franchise. Even if it's done great, will they ever grab their old fans back? It seems like when a game franchise does well, then stutters the second game, it has a hard time reclaiming old fans.

[hoorayforicecream]

Cultist wrote...
The problem is - BioWare made great [ice cream], and now they are making foul [cookies].
Dragon Age 2 sold two times worse than DA: Origins(first ten weeks). It's safe to say that it is a disaster for franchise that had such a wonderful start. And arcadeaction fanbase they attempted to attract failed to compensate "Hardcore RPG" fanbase that shunned the game.

Nothing you've said disproves anything you quoted me saying.

The new direction may be a mistake, but it's a mistake the Dragon Age leadership believes in. You can either try to change the leadership's minds, replace them, or find someone else to give you what you want. It is unlikely that forum feedback will accomplish any of these things.

If you think you know better, by all means - brush up your resume and apply for the job.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 15 avril 2012 - 05:31 .

[ianvillan]

deuce985 wrote...

That begs the question on how DA3 will recover for the franchise. Even if it's done great, will they ever grab their old fans back? It seems like when a game franchise does well, then stutters the second game, it has a hard time reclaiming old fans.

It may be very difficult to recover the franchise because any new players you may of attracted could look at DA3 and say is that a sequel to DA2 I heard that was a bad game.

[AkiKishi]

ianvillan wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

That begs the question on how DA3 will recover for the franchise. Even if it's done great, will they ever grab their old fans back? It seems like when a game franchise does well, then stutters the second game, it has a hard time reclaiming old fans.

It may be very difficult to recover the franchise because any new players you may of attracted could look at DA3 and say is that a sequel to DA2 I heard that was a bad game.

If wanted action RPG I'd go for this over DA3(based on DA2) every time.

[Cultist]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Cultist wrote...
The problem is - BioWare made great [ice cream], and now they are making foul [cookies].
Dragon Age 2 sold two times worse than DA: Origins(first ten weeks). It's safe to say that it is a disaster for franchise that had such a wonderful start. And arcadeaction fanbase they attempted to attract failed to compensate "Hardcore RPG" fanbase that shunned the game.

Nothing you've said disproves anything you quoted me saying.

The new direction may be a mistake, but it's a mistake the Dragon Age leadership believes in. You can either try to change the leadership's minds, replace them, or find someone else to give you what you want. It is unlikely that forum feedback will accomplish any of these things.

Practically, the only way to interact with developers is via Forums. So we are leaving our opinions and feedback here.
Profit is the only realistic way to influence developers' decisions. The only way to express our disposition towards various decisions made by devs is by buying or not buying the game. RPG fandom expressed their displeasure with DA2 with money. I, really, have no idea why BioWare decided to insist on continuing with unsuccessful way of creating Dragon Age 3, which is - stick with most DA2 features and add some more.

Modifié par Cultist, 15 avril 2012 - 05:41 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Cultist wrote...

Practically, the only way to interact with developers is via Forums. So we are leaving our opinions and feedback here.

Then one should not be surprised when certain types of feedback are considered more than others (i.e. the post topic). As I said - they're set on making cookies, at least for now. They want to make cookies. They believe in making cookies. Asking them to make ice cream instead isn't really feedback they'll listen to. One should not be surprised about this, nor should one expect all feedback to have equal responses or consideration. The response to feedback will always be unbalanced. This is not a bad thing.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 15 avril 2012 - 05:50 .

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Practically, the only way to interact with developers is via Forums. So we are leaving our opinions and feedback here.

Then one should not be surprised when certain types of feedback are considered more than others (i.e. the post topic). As I said - they're set on making cookies, at least for now. They want to make cookies. They believe in making cookies. Asking them to make ice cream instead isn't really feedback they'll listen to. One should not be surprised about this, nor should one expect all feedback to have equal responses or consideration. The response to feedback will always be unbalanced. This is not a bad thing.

WELL, AS LONG AS WE'RE USING TORTURED FOOD METAPHORS IN THIS THREAD, I THINK A MORE APT METAPHOR WOULD BE AS FOLLOWS:

DRAGON AGE ORIGINS: VANILLA ICE CREAM. TASTY, BUT AVERAGE.

DRAGON AGE 2: HMM... OUR METRICS ARE SHOWING THAT NOT EVERYONE IS FINISHING OUR ICE CREAM. PEOPLE LIKE FISH, SO LET'S PUT SOME FISH IN THERE. UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE ON A BIT OF A TIME BUDGET, SO LET'S JUST STICK SOME SARDINES IN.

THE COMMUNITY IS CONCERNED THAT, INSTEAD OF GOING BACK TO THE STARTING POINT OF VANILLA ICE CREAM AND ADDING, SAY, A CHERRY ON TOP OR SOME CHOCOLATE FUDGE, THE DRAGON AGE TEAM IS INSTEAD TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT KIND OF FISH THE COMMUNITY WOULD PREFER IN THEIR ICE CREAM INSTEAD OF SARDINES.

[AlexJK]

bEVEsthda wrote...
 
I have this creeping feeling that Bioware might have been listening more to feedback from fans who already like DA2, than investigating why those who disliked DA2 with such vehemence, did so. If that is the case, the only thing that DA3 will accomplish is that the DA2-fans will get a better, more polished game. Will that sell?

Do you think maybe they've been taking feedback from all the sources available to them, and not just the vocal minority? I do. And frankly, I think a well-polished DA2 would be an awesome game. Origins wasn't perfect you know!

[The Elder King]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Talk of cookies and ice-cream notwithstanding, the conciliatory tone of what was a really encouraging PAX panel suggests to me that the huge outpouring of dissatisfaction and discontent following DA2 wasn’t totally ignored.

EDIT: Isabella needed pants alright and it's looking like DA3 will give us the ability to give her a pair! YAY!

If she'll be in the game as a companion.

Modifié par hhh89, 15 avril 2012 - 06:15 .

[AlexJK]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote:

DRAGON AGE ORIGINS: VANILLA ICE CREAM. TASTY, BUT AVERAGE.

DRAGON AGE 2: HMM... OUR METRICS ARE SHOWING THAT NOT EVERYONE IS FINISHING OUR ICE CREAM. PEOPLE LIKE FISH, SO LET'S PUT SOME FISH IN THERE. UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE ON A BIT OF A TIME BUDGET, SO LET'S JUST STICK SOME SARDINES IN.

Firstly, could you not type in all-caps please? Really hard to read...

Secondly, your metaphor is silly. Fish ice cream? That's the equivalent of Bioware saying "let's make something we *know* won't work, and nobody will like." Obviously that's not the case, right? Hyperbole doesn't make your point I'm afraid. 

[deuce985]

BobSmith101 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

That begs the question on how DA3 will recover for the franchise. Even if it's done great, will they ever grab their old fans back? It seems like when a game franchise does well, then stutters the second game, it has a hard time reclaiming old fans.

It may be very difficult to recover the franchise because any new players you may of attracted could look at DA3 and say is that a sequel to DA2 I heard that was a bad game.

If wanted action RPG I'd go for this over DA3(based on DA2) every time.

I doubt it has cinematic value and storytelling like Bioware does though.

That game looks interesting and I want to try it...but I don't trust Japanese game development+Capcom.

That country is in a serious bind this gen when it comes to video games. They literally suck and the west has pretty much taken over the industry. Their refusal to evolve, slow development times, bad management, small publishers and low tech have really put a dent over there. It's about dang time somebody over there made a open world game. I hope it does well because Japan needs something like that right now...

[schalafi]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Cultist wrote...
The problem is - BioWare made great [ice cream], and now they are making foul [cookies].
Dragon Age 2 sold two times worse than DA: Origins(first ten weeks). It's safe to say that it is a disaster for franchise that had such a wonderful start. And arcadeaction fanbase they attempted to attract failed to compensate "Hardcore RPG" fanbase that shunned the game.

Nothing you've said disproves anything you quoted me saying.

The new direction may be a mistake, but it's a mistake the Dragon Age leadership believes in. You can either try to change the leadership's minds, replace them, or find someone else to give you what you want. It is unlikely that forum feedback will accomplish any of these things.

If you think you know better, by all means - brush up your resume and apply for the job.

It's just possible that the very negative feedback from some of the forum posts was what drove away a lot ot potential buyers of DA2. I know that when a new game comes out I usually go and visit their forums for opinions on the game before I buy it.  I think it caused a lot of Bioware's  fans to hesitate about getting the game because of the negativity.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be discussions about a new game, but some of the comments I've read are exaggerated and untrue. It's like some players expected another episode of Origins, and when that didn't happen there was nothing they could say about DA2 that was positive, but describing it as an "awful game, not worth buying", was going too far.

I happened to like a lot of DA2, the story, the npcs, the plots concerning the Qun and the Mage/Templars was interesting to me, and not poorly done. I thought the writing of some of the characters was very good, I admit I didn't like the waves of enemies, nor the  reused dungeons, but I didn't consider them game breaking. I loved playing a Mage in the game, because I just didn't like the Mage character in Origins at all. Some of the fighting was very fast compared to Origins, but I liked it too.

I read David Gaiders blog about the future of the DA franchise, and although he didn't give much away, what he did say was encouraging. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to write a rant, but I just wish things like the topic of this post wasn't quite so incendiary, especially when some potenial buyers of DA3 may read this and decide it's not worth it.

[Dominus]

I have this creeping feeling that Bioware might have been listening more to feedback from fans who already like DA2, than investigating why those who disliked DA2 with such vehemence, did so. If that is the case, the only thing that DA3 will accomplish is that the DA2-fans will get a better, more polished game. Will that sell?

Until any new footage of Dragon Age 3 makes an appearance, it's nigh impossible to tell. I'd suspect they're trying, as stated in a few interviews from the past, to find a formula that would be the best of both worlds. Again, it's a bit too early in my opinion to reach an objective answer to this question. I'll wait until they decide to release previews, and then commence the kvetching.

[hoorayforicecream]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...
WELL, AS LONG AS WE'RE USING TORTURED FOOD METAPHORS IN THIS THREAD, I THINK A MORE APT METAPHOR WOULD BE AS FOLLOWS:

DRAGON AGE ORIGINS: VANILLA ICE CREAM. TASTY, BUT AVERAGE.

DRAGON AGE 2: HMM... OUR METRICS ARE SHOWING THAT NOT EVERYONE IS FINISHING OUR ICE CREAM. PEOPLE LIKE FISH, SO LET'S PUT SOME FISH IN THERE. UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE ON A BIT OF A TIME BUDGET, SO LET'S JUST STICK SOME SARDINES IN.

THE COMMUNITY IS CONCERNED THAT, INSTEAD OF GOING BACK TO THE STARTING POINT OF VANILLA ICE CREAM AND ADDING, SAY, A CHERRY ON TOP OR SOME CHOCOLATE FUDGE, THE DRAGON AGE TEAM IS INSTEAD TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT KIND OF FISH THE COMMUNITY WOULD PREFER IN THEIR ICE CREAM INSTEAD OF SARDINES.

False. Bioware did what they did in DA2 because they believed in it. This is why they keep saying they are proud of what they did in DA2. Not because someone told them to. Not because they think it was a bad idea, but some metrics told them they should. They genuinely thought that they were making improvements to the game. And guess what? A good number of people actually do think there were improvements made. DA2 wasn't an improvement in every field, but there were a good number of improvements made in DA2 over DAO. The important thing is not to throw everything out, but to keep what worked and what was good.

If you can't accept that, then your feedback probably won't be very useful to them.

[The_11thDoctor]

Honestly I dont see how the OP could get their opinion after seeing their panel... There are things both good and bad about both DA games and they are trying to come up with a solution that could possibly please both fans. They mentioned they are sticking with VA character and Im glad for it. I HATE non-VA MCs and I hope they all die in a ditch... Both games DAO and DA2 had amazing concepts that never got fully realized. DAO had a bigger world, but not much was going on in it environmental wise, the map sucked and the way you traveled, the combat system was atrocious and the worst Ive seen in a RPG to the point I wanted to skip all combat and almost didnt get thru the game, but the story was good enough, I ignored it so I could finish it. It was an outdated looking game with generic graphics...But, I loved the story and it was told far better than DA2. They had 6 years to make DAO. They had 2 to make DA2.

DA2 had far better combat that felt it should be on a console, great animations whether in combat, walking or cutscenes, had VA characters, great looking armor styles and they looked amazing texture wise. The char. models still looked dated due to bad textures and not finding a style to compliment the 2d art. The world was just 1 small city with nothing going on in it, lacked a large number of NPCs that had their own routines, no weather changes, no changes in the shops, their clothes etc for "10 yrs". The story telling method was terrible cause you didnt live out the "10 yrs", but just heard they happened... They story there wasnt bad. Just how they told it. It had great potential... If they made our choices matter and didnt recycle maps, it would have been a better accepted game. They had the right concept about the maps about them be randomly generated, but pulled it off poorly. It should have had tons of random pieces of environmental junk pulled together each map to look like different areas and be different sizes and styles and not just the same dungeon with didnt parts locked off... That is where they fail HARD. Look at any Nippon Ichi game and how they do random dungeons and thats how you do it right. The banter was actually better in DA2 as well. The wheel though it took away a TON of options, was a great idea and I love the personality choice added to it, but they needed our options back. If the combine the 2, I'll be happy. So if the combat is like the DLC legacy I think...if like that in DA3, Ill be happy. But the world needs to be bigger than DAO and more like KOA.(Kingdoms of Amalur)

Lastly: the armor... once they bring back custom armor or ME styled custom armor to DA3, we'll be pretty much set, I believe. Having to pick up 1000s of armor and cant put it on or give it to party members only made you more upset each armor you found. YOud have 3 real amazing pieces of armor , but the other 2 sat in inventory cause you couldnt put it on anyone and you didnt want to sell it... That being fixed will make fans happy.

Lastly, Make controllers available for PC... its 2012 and only Bioware wont give the option to their games... I'd own it on PC if I could use my controller.

[Maria Caliban]

bEVEsthda wrote...

I have this creeping feeling that Bioware might have been listening more to feedback from fans who already like DA2, than investigating why those who disliked DA2 with such vehemence, did so. If that is the case, the only thing that DA3 will accomplish is that the DA2-fans will get a better, more polished game. Will that sell?

They're listening to people who like the game but would like to see improvements as opposed to those who dislike the game? That's a sound strategy.

[Cultist]

Maria Caliban wrote...
They're listening to people who like the game but would like to see improvements as opposed to those who dislike the game? That's a sound strategy.

That reminds me about some The Simpsons episode, where Homer's half-brother trusted him to design a new car.
Half-brother declared bankruptcy as a result.