189 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Please be careful with generalizations of what type of people prefer to play what style of game and so forth. It's fine to say you do or don't prefer a particular style of game or a game platform, but once you start generalizing those that fit into those groups, the chances of inadvertently insulting someone gets pretty high.


I wouldn't say we're catering just to DA2 fans. I think it's also important to recognize that someone liking DA2 doesn't preclude them from having a lot of the same criticisms that those that don't like the game have. Nor does it preclude them from also liking DAO (or even thinking DAO is a better game).

[bEVEsthda]

Dejajeva wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Why? Because it's still at heart a cRPG that takes itself seriously as RPG. It's not some juvenile console romp for teenagers with some attention disorder.

I just want to take a minute to address this, because if you are insinuating that DA2 is exactly that- a juvenile console romp for teenagers with some attention disorder, I am incredibly offended. I am one of those console players that enjoyed DA2. I may not agree with everything that anyone says here- and I do stand up for DA2 and Bioware often. But I am thirty years old. I have a job and a life and a family.  I have a college education. And I play on console. I enjoy playing on console. I like it better on console. And I am neither a teenager or juvenile nor do I have an attention disorder.

I have tried to ask questions and be respectful- to try to understand why people dislike console players and casual gamers. You think they had to dumb your game down in order to make it for console players. I get that. I get that the xbox can't do what the PC does. And I feel for you. But do not group all console players into one category. I am an adult, and I'm not stupid and nobody has to dumb anything down for me. Those arguments are getting old.

We're off topic here, and on a discussion we shouldn't have. But that is maybe somewhat my fault, so I suppose I should spend some time on this. Let's do it backwards.

I don't care how old complaints about dumbing down games is. It's still worth complaining about. Will always be.

Consoles do put limits on games, yes. But as many, many examples prove, it's still possible to make great non-action games. DA:O is one. ME1 and Bethesda's titles are others.

I have long since accepted that all major games must be developed for consoles. It's sad, but it's how things are.

No, I don't think they had to dumb down my game, to make it for console players. Why would I think that, if I liked DA:O? Why would I even buy DA2 in that case?

I don't dislike consoles or console players. I have the last two generations of consoles myself, PS3, XB360, XBox, PS2.

The quote you've bolded, is my attempt to describe what DA2 came across as, to me, - in comparison to TW2.
And can you really blame me? :



I was greatly pained with DA2, after DA:O. I hated the art direction. I hated the animations. I hated the entire mood of the game. Playing TW2, was a revelation as to why I was so annoyed, because it put so many pieces in the right perspective. Much about gameplay was so wrong with TW2, for me. So obviously flaws, is something I can accept and live with. Did that already with DA:O.  If  I like the game. That comes down as the sum of many things. But there may be something that really breaks it. Putting the finger on that is so much harder. I already belong to the losing side regarding both voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel. They have promised to try to make improvements, so one has to hope for that. Remains the mood, atmosphere, character of the game. That is what I tried to point at, with the statement you bolded.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 15 avril 2012 - 10:39 .

[Firky]

I'd contribute to the discussion, but I'm finding that screenshot too fascinating.

It must be pre-patch? On a low difficulty? But what is happening? A stagger combo?

I don't recall blood like that. I feel inadequate all of a sudden.

[bEVEsthda]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Please be careful with generalizations of what type of people prefer to play what style of game and so forth. It's fine to say you do or don't prefer a particular style of game or a game platform, but once you start generalizing those that fit into those groups, the chances of inadvertently insulting someone gets pretty high.

But I didn't make any such generalizations. And I also play some games on console myself.

Yes, chances of inadvertently insulting someone is apparently often pretty high. I personally, could... nevermind.

[bEVEsthda]

Firky wrote...

I'd contribute to the discussion, but I'm finding that screenshot too fascinating.

It must be pre-patch? On a low difficulty? But what is happening? A stagger combo?

I don't recall blood like that. I feel inadequate all of a sudden.

It's not on low difficulty.

[Firky]

What is happening then? I can't figure it out. (It's been a while.) Is that warrior Hawke doing something with stagger? It seems to have a wide arc.

OK. I'm really not trying to derail, (I just love combat screenshots) so I'll address the OP. As someone who loved both DAO and DA2, I'd probably guess that people who liked DA2 (as a generalisation) mostly liked both. So, I think listening to people who liked DAO but not DA2 makes sense. Assuming the game is still pitched as RPG. (Which I think DA2 moved away from in many regards.)

And I totally agree that the gamer can forgive a game lots and lots of faults as long as the overall impression is good (or, possibly, doesn't annoy you too much.) It might be fairly individual, though. The QTEs/cutscenes during combat in Witcher 2 drove me bananas. But I didn't mind the blood in DA2. I actually kinda liked it, for the really difficult battles. It reminded me of those massive critical hits in BG2 exploding people.

Modifié par Firky, 15 avril 2012 - 10:25 .

[bEVEsthda]

It was a long time ago, so don't count on me to remember exact details. But I played on second highest difficulty, whatever that was? "hard"? or "normal?. Anyway, it's probably the result of firing off some greatsword skills, then maybe some time of great swings, then a final big 360 swing, which I then had maxed out and had like 40 feet range to. The game was as patched as I ever made it to, before finishing the game.

[Wulfram]

Their internal discussions aren't necessarily the same as their external ones.

Hell, they might even have learnt from the run-up to DA2 that spending their time telling people how much the previous game sucks isn't a profitable marketing strategy.

[Dakota Strider]

One thing I find difficult to understand, is why a company that finds a winning formula for success, tries with all their might, to run away from that, and try to do something different. I have not played every Bioware game, but played the BG and NWN series. Did not think they could get much better than that. Then came DAO. While I did not prefer the arcade style type of combat, which removed most of the tactical combat that you could have in the old D&D based games, I realized that they had to invent a new world, and game system, since they were no longer holding the license for D&D. And the story and roleplay in DAO was superb. However, they went backwards in DA2. And while there may be fans of the DA2 style game, I think Bioware is making a big mistake if they attempt to placate the DA2 fans at the expense of the fans of all their previous work. Bioware used to be the very best in computer rpgs. They should stick to what they do best, and make the best rpgs on the market. Let other companies make the shooters, button-mashers, and cinematic "games" that give you very little choices.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 15 avril 2012 - 10:44 .

[Dejajeva]

bEVEsthda wrote...

*snip*

I appreciate the clarification. I'll admit that I am sensitive to opinions about both casual gamers and console gamers, as I guess I would fit mostly into both categories. We deserve an awesome game as much as people who have been playing crpgs since they were six or whatever. That's where I get frustrated. Especially when some people suggest it shouldn't be released on console at all or that we wouldn't know a good game if it slapped us on the ass and said hello.

[deuce985]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Please be careful with generalizations of what type of people prefer to play what style of game and so forth. It's fine to say you do or don't prefer a particular style of game or a game platform, but once you start generalizing those that fit into those groups, the chances of inadvertently insulting someone gets pretty high.


I wouldn't say we're catering just to DA2 fans. I think it's also important to recognize that someone liking DA2 doesn't preclude them from having a lot of the same criticisms that those that don't like the game have. Nor does it preclude them from also liking DAO (or even thinking DAO is a better game).

Well, what I read in the blog and the new proposed character customization sounds like you guys are listening to the feedback from DA2...which is encouraging.

Contrary to what a lot of people on these boards want you to think, DA2 did a lot of things better than DA:O. I know that's hard to admit for some people but it's true. Not everything in DA2 was flawed...

[Realmzmaster]

@bEVEsthda,

I understand your frustration, but when you make a statement like:

It's not some juvenile console romp for teenagers with some attention disorder.

You run the risk of offending and insulting people. I know you are comparing it to TW2, but you inadvertently insult those who do like DA2. As you know I like DA2 and I am very far from juvenile. I most definitely do not have an attention disorder. You also inadvertently insult people who do have that disorder and struggle with it everyday.
We need to be careful with what we write and say because words do have an impact.

[bEVEsthda]

Yes.

[seraphymon]

deuce985 wrote...
Contrary to what a lot of people on these boards want you to think, DA2 did a lot of things better than DA:O. I know that's hard to admit for some people but it's true. Not everything in DA2 was flawed...

Im glad you are able to speak for people and decide what is or isnt true. Cause to me it didn't do ALOT of things better. It isnt true. There is very little it did what i would consider "better" most was either just a side ways thing, no better no worse, and the majority being worse, to just flat out fail.

[Wozearly]

AlexJK wrote...

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote:

DRAGON AGE ORIGINS: VANILLA ICE CREAM. TASTY, BUT AVERAGE.

DRAGON AGE 2: HMM... OUR METRICS ARE SHOWING THAT NOT EVERYONE IS FINISHING OUR ICE CREAM. PEOPLE LIKE FISH, SO LET'S PUT SOME FISH IN THERE. UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE ON A BIT OF A TIME BUDGET, SO LET'S JUST STICK SOME SARDINES IN.

Firstly, could you not type in all-caps please? Really hard to read...

I don't know, he's keeping remarkably in character for a Khornite...

...well, aside from the inexcusable lack of yelling about blood, skulls, killing, maiming and burning.

[/offtopic]

[Mmw04014]

deuce985 wrote...

Contrary to what a lot of people on these boards want you to think, DA2 did a lot of things better than DA:O. I know that's hard to admit for some people but it's true. Not everything in DA2 was flawed...

I legitimately can't think of one thing that I believe Bioware did better in DA2 rather than Origins, so no, what you say isn't "true." You speak only for yourself.

[LegendaryBlade]

"We got a lot of positive feedback and....some negative feedback"

Yeah, things aren't boding entirely well when they hardly acknowledge it.

[nightscrawl]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Those arguments  may be old but are grounded in peoples experiences with the game - no different than you. For me (and for what it's worth) it's clear that the DA2 team totally threw the baby out with the bathwater in trying to reinvent the franchise as something more appealing a casual audience (when I saw my rogue roundhouse kick a flask halfway across the battlefield I died a little inside). For many, myself included, any step back in the direction of Origins is a step back in the right direction.

The point of her post is that people on these forums lower themselves to insults when it's not necessary. For some reason, some people cannot, and will not, ever accept that there are other people who like something different than themselves. And their response is to be insulting. And yes, I agree that it gets old. It serves no useful function except to make those people feel superior.

I actually do not understand how people in this thread didn't find at least something, any single thing, positive about the PAX presentation. Since they weren't able to get into too much detail, it's rather hard to say with certainty that they are completely spitting in the faces of those who preferred DAO, or those who want a more traditional cRPG. The indesputable fact is that NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING, because we haven't been shown anything except a few slides and concept drawings.

How can you watch the PAX presentation and say that they aren't at least trying to make things right? You know how? Because you want only what YOU want, damn anyone else's opinion or wants, because they're all just luddites who wouldn't know a real RPG if it punched them in the face.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 16 avril 2012 - 01:53 .

[Thor Rand Al]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...
WELL, AS LONG AS WE'RE USING TORTURED FOOD METAPHORS IN THIS THREAD, I THINK A MORE APT METAPHOR WOULD BE AS FOLLOWS:

DRAGON AGE ORIGINS: VANILLA ICE CREAM. TASTY, BUT AVERAGE.

DRAGON AGE 2: HMM... OUR METRICS ARE SHOWING THAT NOT EVERYONE IS FINISHING OUR ICE CREAM. PEOPLE LIKE FISH, SO LET'S PUT SOME FISH IN THERE. UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE ON A BIT OF A TIME BUDGET, SO LET'S JUST STICK SOME SARDINES IN.

THE COMMUNITY IS CONCERNED THAT, INSTEAD OF GOING BACK TO THE STARTING POINT OF VANILLA ICE CREAM AND ADDING, SAY, A CHERRY ON TOP OR SOME CHOCOLATE FUDGE, THE DRAGON AGE TEAM IS INSTEAD TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT KIND OF FISH THE COMMUNITY WOULD PREFER IN THEIR ICE CREAM INSTEAD OF SARDINES.

Dude really, take the caps off please, some people find this really rude.

hoorayforicecream wrote...
False. Bioware did what they did in DA2 because they believed in it. This is why they keep saying they are proud of what they did in DA2. Not because someone told them to. Not because they think it was a bad idea, but some metrics told them they should. They genuinely thought that they were making improvements to the game. And guess what? A good number of people actually do think there were improvements made. DA2 wasn't an improvement in every field, but there were a good number of improvements made in DA2 over DAO. The important thing is not to throw everything out, but to keep what worked and what was good.

If you can't accept that, then your feedback probably won't be very useful to them.

^^^^ This
I'm one of those people who thinks there were improvements made in DA2.  I also acknowledge that the game was not perfect, but for me the improvements outweigh the flaws.  After over a year of DA2 being out I'm STILL playing it.  Do I want to see those same flaws in the next game, heck no but I do WANT to see the improvements from DA2 in the next game because it wasn't a total failure.
I do want to see the romance sexytime scenes from DAO in the next game, not DA2's.  I don't want to see the reuable areas.  I don't want to see enemies dropping from no where, but this they did improve on in the DLC's so I know the respawning enemies won't be in 3 because they fixed it in 2.  I don't want to see the time holes between years that leads to a lot of questions like huh lol.  I do want to see more interaction with our companions then just for quests, like in DAO, we could talk to our companions more.  I love the combat style in DA2 especially for mages.  Seems that's all I want to play now where as in Origins all I wanted to play was a warrior.  I don't have issues with having to play as a human (that's all I ever play).  I did have probs with the companions armor and wearing the same thing for Maker knows how many years, but I did like how you could change out your companions armor in Origins, again they addressed this at PAX.  I had issues with DAO's deepraods, elven ruins and the fade because for me they were too long, but it's more then that on why I had issues.   I could go on n on but the point is, there was positives about Origins just like there was negative and that goes right along with DA2. 
But I can honestly say I really enjoyed DA2 because it's going forward instead of backwards.  I see promise and potential.  Take what's good from Origins and DA2 and there is soooo much potential for the next game being a great game.

EDIT: Do I expect or demand Bioware fix or leave what I did or did not like.  HELL NO.  All I can do is write what I like/don't like and see what the outcome will be.  But because I loved DAO and DA2 so much, I know that the next one will be just as good for me.

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 16 avril 2012 - 04:31 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Mmw04014 wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Contrary to what a lot of people on these boards want you to think, DA2 did a lot of things better than DA:O. I know that's hard to admit for some people but it's true. Not everything in DA2 was flawed...

I legitimately can't think of one thing that I believe Bioware did better in DA2 rather than Origins, so no, what you say isn't "true." You speak only for yourself.

This person (deuce985) actually speaks for a lot more people like him then u think.  This person speaks for those of us who are still playing DA2 to this day.  This person speaks for those of us who do see that DA2 did some things better then Origins.  To quote "Not everything in DA2 was flawed..." EXACTLY

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 16 avril 2012 - 02:20 .

[Dakota Strider]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

(SNIPped, since there is no reason to fill up space with everything I agreed with you about)

  I love the combat style in DA2 especially for mages.  Seems that's all I want to play now where as in Origins all I wanted to play was a warrior. 

While the combat style looked flashy, and pretty, it was done by cutting down on your choices for tactics.  Mages spells were greatly reduced from what was available in DAO.  And if you could remember what mage spells (and cleric spells) from NWN and BG series had to offer, it would make DA2 mages seem like apprentices.

DA2 combat reminded me way too much of old style arcade marshal arts games.  Sure it moved fast, and had great graphics.  But Bioware games used to have great tactical combat, as well as great roleplay.  I felt the combat in DA2 gave me very little choices...It was very difficult to make your companions go and do what you think they should do, seemed like as soon as you finally got them to do the right thing, they reverted back to the same failed move they were doing before you gave them directions.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 16 avril 2012 - 02:18 .

[Mmw04014]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Contrary to what a lot of people on these boards want you to think, DA2 did a lot of things better than DA:O. I know that's hard to admit for some people but it's true. Not everything in DA2 was flawed...

I legitimately can't think of one thing that I believe Bioware did better in DA2 rather than Origins, so no, what you say isn't "true." You speak only for yourself.

This person (deuce985) actually speaks for a lot more people like him then u think.  This person speaks for those of us who are still playing DA2 to this day.  This person speaks for those of us who do see that DA2 did some things better then Origins.  To quote "Not everything in DA2 was flawed..." EXACTLY

I say that he only speaks for himself, because we all only speak for ourselves whether people agree with what we say or not.

And it wasn't as if he was saying "Some of us feel....." He was saying that his opinion was fact and when you do that, you paint anyone who has a difference of opinion as biased and irrational.

[Thor Rand Al]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

(SNIPped, since there is no reason to fill up space with everything I agreed with you about)

  I love the combat style in DA2 especially for mages.  Seems that's all I want to play now where as in Origins all I wanted to play was a warrior. 

While the combat style looked flashy, and pretty, it was done by cutting down on your choices for tactics.  Mages spells were greatly reduced from what was available in DAO.  And if you could remember what mage spells (and cleric spells) from NWN and BG series had to offer, it would make DA2 mages seem like apprentices.

DA2 combat reminded me way too much of old style arcade marshal arts games.  Sure it moved fast, and had great graphics.  But Bioware games used to have great tactical combat, as well as great roleplay.  I felt the combat in DA2 gave me very little choices...It was very difficult to make your companions go and do what you think they should do, seemed like as soon as you finally got them to do the right thing, they reverted back to the same failed move they were doing before you gave them directions.

I agree with you on the cutback of tactics, there was some warrior tactics I enjoyed more of in Origins and lacked in DA2.  And as far as my companions going and doing what they want, I've never been one to use that.  I set them up to how I'd like them to fight but I basically don't mess around with it too much.  Aveline's almost always my tank when I'm a mage, with either and or Isy/Fenris/Carver as backup.  I prefer using Aveline as the tank so she can take on more because I can center around her while Isy n them take out the stragglers not in Aveline's taunt range.  But I play my games differently then a lot of people but this works for me.

[Thor Rand Al]

Mmw04014 wrote...


I say that he only speaks for himself, because we all only speak for ourselves whether people agree with what we say or not.

And it wasn't as if he was saying "Some of us feel....." He was saying that his opinion was fact and when you do that, you paint anyone who has a difference of opinion as biased and irrational.

Fair enough but there are some who did/do enjoy DA2. 

And I also have seen it said that the people who did enjoy DA2, their opinions don't matter because the game was a complete failure, which is not true for some.  Some people didn't like it but some did.  And it doesn't mean the opinions of those that did like DA2 doesn't matter n vice versa for those that didn't.