189 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

Mmw04014 wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Contrary to what a lot of people on these boards want you to think, DA2 did a lot of things better than DA:O. I know that's hard to admit for some people but it's true. Not everything in DA2 was flawed...

I legitimately can't think of one thing that I believe Bioware did better in DA2 rather than Origins, so no, what you say isn't "true." You speak only for yourself.

I can think of a grand total of 3 things in DA2 that I like better than DAO.

1)  Mage pants.  It was nice to be able to play as a mage and not be stuck in robes (or pump strength or take arcane warrior to wear armor)
2)  More tactics slots available.  This was especially important, imho, because the combat was so much faster that it became impossible to control all 4 party members in real-time (without pausing).
3)  All of the LIs were available for romance by protags of either gender.

Everything else they changed was either sideways (neutral) or backward per my gaming preferences.

[Mmw04014]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...


I say that he only speaks for himself, because we all only speak for ourselves whether people agree with what we say or not.

And it wasn't as if he was saying "Some of us feel....." He was saying that his opinion was fact and when you do that, you paint anyone who has a difference of opinion as biased and irrational.

Fair enough but there are some who did/do enjoy DA2. 

And I also have seen it said that the people who did enjoy DA2, their opinions don't matter because the game was a complete failure, which is not true for some.  Some people didn't like it but some did.  And it doesn't mean the opinions of those that did like DA2 doesn't matter n vice versa for those that didn't.

I enjoy DA2. I will readily admit that I vastly prefer Origins and feel it was a superior game in every way, but that doesn't mean I can't get enjoyment from DA2.

And I understand what you are saying. I don't think it's feasible for people to ask for a complete disregard of what DA2 did. However, my main contention is how it feels like Origins is just not being acknowledged to the degree DA2 is. There have been a few simple mentions of taking the good parts of Origins, but those feel like lip service because nothing specific has been discussed on what those good parts are. I want a dev to talk about something specific that was good in Origins that they plan on bringing back. I don't want DA2 to be disregarded, but a little more acknowledgement of the good parts of Origins would be nice.

That's how I feel at the moment. I just don't really trust Bioware at this point, so I find it completely feasible that they are just going to give us an updated DA2, with little regard for Origins or the fans of that game. It's super early though, so I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong and I plan to stick around the forums throughout development and see if I am. As it stand though, there isn't much to look forward to if you greatly preferred Origins.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I can think of a grand total of 3 things in DA2 that I like better than DAO.

1) 
Mage pants.  It was nice to be able to play as a mage and not be stuck in robes (or pump strength or take arcane warrior to wear armor)
2)  More tactics slots available.  This was especially important, imho, because the combat was so much faster that it became impossible to control all 4 party members in real-time (without pausing).
3)  All of the LIs were available for romance by protags of either gender.

Everything else they changed was either sideways (neutral) or backward per my gaming preferences.

I don't even think those things are better. While, I liked that mages could finally wear pants, they were usually really ugly or bland outfits. I found combat in DA2 to be so annoying and tedious that everytime I tired to play using tactics, I'd get so irritated that I would give up so that kinda negated the usefulness of more tactics slots for me. And for all the LI's being available to all genders, they managed to make it work fairly well for those four characters, but because of hindsight, I definitely wouldn't have wanted Alistair or Morrigan to become available for same sex romance.

But I commend you for finding pluses. I literally racked my brain for a while trying to think of something I preferred in DA2 but I never managed it.

Modifié par Mmw04014, 16 avril 2012 - 03:06 .

[Dakota Strider]

Mmw04014 wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...


I say that he only speaks for himself, because we all only speak for ourselves whether people agree with what we say or not.

And it wasn't as if he was saying "Some of us feel....." He was saying that his opinion was fact and when you do that, you paint anyone who has a difference of opinion as biased and irrational.

Fair enough but there are some who did/do enjoy DA2. 

And I also have seen it said that the people who did enjoy DA2, their opinions don't matter because the game was a complete failure, which is not true for some.  Some people didn't like it but some did.  And it doesn't mean the opinions of those that did like DA2 doesn't matter n vice versa for those that didn't.

I enjoy DA2. I will readily admit that I vastly prefer Origins and feel it was a superior game in every way, but that doesn't mean I can't get enjoyment from DA2.

And I understand what you are saying. I don't think it's feasible for people to ask for a complete disregard of what DA2 did. However, my main contention is how it feels like Origins is just not being acknowledged to the degree DA2 is. There have been a few simple mentions of taking the good parts of Origins, but those feel like lip service because nothing specific has been discussed on what those good parts are. I want a dev to talk about something specific that was good in Origins that they plan on bringing back. I don't want DA2 to be disregarded, but a little more acknowledgement of the good parts of Origins would be nice.

That's how I feel at the moment. I just don't really trust Bioware at this point, so I find it completely feasible that they are just going to give us an updated DA2, with little regard for Origins or the fans of that game. It's super early though, so I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong and I plan to stick around the forums throughout development and see if I am. As it stand though, there isn't much to look forward to if you greatly preferred Origins.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I can think of a grand total of 3 things in DA2 that I like better than DAO.

1) 
Mage pants.  It was nice to be able to play as a mage and not be stuck in robes (or pump strength or take arcane warrior to wear armor)
2)  More tactics slots available.  This was especially important, imho, because the combat was so much faster that it became impossible to control all 4 party members in real-time (without pausing).
3)  All of the LIs were available for romance by protags of either gender.

Everything else they changed was either sideways (neutral) or backward per my gaming preferences.

I don't even think those things are better. While, I liked that mages could finally wear pants, they were usually really ugly or bland outfits. I found combat in DA2 to be so annoying and tedious that everytime I tired to play using tactics, I'd get so irritated that I would give up so that kinda negated the usefulness of more tactics slots for me. And for all the LI's being available to all genders, they managed to make it work fairly well for those four characters, but because of hindsight, I definitely wouldn't have wanted Alistair or Morrigan to become available for same sex romance.

But I commend you for finding pluses. I literally racked my brain for a while trying to think of something I preferred in DA2 but I never managed it.

Well said.
I can think of one thing that I think DA2 did better than DAO...cosmetically it was probably more appealling to the eye, for the most part.  But not by a lot.  And if the visualization is the only reason to play a computer game, we would be better served watching a movie.

[tishyw]

GodWood wrote...

Cydas wrote...
I believe they are trying to create an RPG that will attract huge masses to play the game(like Skyrim) but they fail to realize the true fans of their series are ones that want a hardcore RPG like DA:O...

It's a business strategy I simply can not comprehend.

They create a critically acclaimed RPG that's their biggest commericial success to date (DA:O). Then they rush out a sequel that's nothing like it and panned by fans and critics alike. (DA2)

So what do they do?

They keep trying to polish the fail sequel. (DA2)

It's just so ... illogical.

I've never been able to understand that either, and from the sales of ME3 it looks like DA:O will remain their best selling game, so why don't they go back to that formula?

They need to get back to their roots and make the best Bioware style game they can, not worry about trying to appeal to the COD fans.  Skyrim was so successful because it was the best Bethesda style game it could be and that pulled in fans who would never normally play that type of game.
Bioware need to realise this and just focus on being the best they can in their niche, if the game is good enough the fans will come.

[Mmw04014]

Dakota Strider wrote...

Well said.
I can think of one thing that I think DA2 did better than DAO...cosmetically it was probably more appealling to the eye, for the most part.  But not by a lot.  And if the visualization is the only reason to play a computer game, we would be better served watching a movie.

I don't even find it more visually appealing. I found it to look far too clean, bland, and crisp. I liked that Origins looked dirty and muddled. I also liked that it had a very distinctive traditional fantasy feel to it. DA2 looked like a mish mash of concepts that looked "cool" but didn't have any coherency or regard for the precedent set by Origins.

Also, I really miss the less than perfect teeth the characters had. Everyone in DA2 had pearly whites. I hated it.

[Thor Rand Al]

Mmw04014 wrote...
I enjoy DA2. I will readily admit that I vastly prefer Origins and feel it was a superior game in every way, but that doesn't mean I can't get enjoyment from DA2.

And I understand what you are saying. I don't think it's feasible for people to ask for a complete disregard of what DA2 did. However, my main contention is how it feels like Origins is just not being acknowledged to the degree DA2 is. There have been a few simple mentions of taking the good parts of Origins, but those feel like lip service because nothing specific has been discussed on what those good parts are. I want a dev to talk about something specific that was good in Origins that they plan on bringing back. I don't want DA2 to be disregarded, but a little more acknowledgement of the good parts of Origins would be nice.

On some of this I totally agree with you, there were some good things in Origins.  I really did love DAO for at least a year lol.  I still love some of the things in Origins even if I can't get myself to play it again.  Because there were some good qualities in Origins, I loved the hell out of it but I also have to be fair and say that one of the reasons I was able to play as long as I did (sorry Bioware) was because of mods,  actually only one in particular but despite that there are some excellent things I did enjoy, just like there are things in DA2 that I love and I'm not having the replayability issue with DA2 that I'm having with Origins. 
I know the devs have said they want to show us as their venturing forward and I too also hope that means what their bringing over from Origins.  But I also want to see what their bringing over from DA2 also.

That's how I feel at the moment. I just don't really trust Bioware at this point, so I find it completely feasible that they are just going to give us an updated DA2, with little regard for Origins or the fans of that game. It's super early though, so I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong and I plan to stick around the forums throughout development and see if I am. As it stand though, there isn't much to look forward to if you greatly preferred Origins.

I totally understand what your saying, you're not the only one I've heard this from.  I do have an issue with how our protag's are just dropped in a manner of speaking, for example the next DA2 DLC and part of this was because I became more attached to my Hawke then I did my Warden.  That stung me bad especially since I have been a defender for DA2.  N I did rant, rave, cry lol.  But I also wasn't going to let that stop me from saying my p's n q's about what I did enjoy about DA2 and hoping that the next game see's some of this. 
I'm looking forward to what the devs will show and tell.  I love how they've shown us what they might be plannin as far as the armor and companions go.  This is a really good start and it gives some who are on the fence some hope but for some it's going to take a lot more.   

[Thor Rand Al]

Pasquale1234 wrote...


I can think of a grand total of 3 things in DA2 that I like better than DAO.

1)  Mage pants.  It was nice to be able to play as a mage and not be stuck in robes (or pump strength or take arcane warrior to wear armor)
2)  More tactics slots available.  This was especially important, imho, because the combat was so much faster that it became impossible to control all 4 party members in real-time (without pausing).
3)  All of the LIs were available for romance by protags of either gender.

Everything else they changed was either sideways (neutral) or backward per my gaming preferences.

4) More of a closeness with Hawke and family.  Yes there was some in Origins but not like DA2.  I felt more drawn to Hawke and family/friends then I did with my Warden.  Wardens story was more open, Hawke's was more intimate in a manner of speaking.  Basically when I was ready to let my Wardens story end, I didn't have an issue to move on to a new protag, I was ready.  I can't do that with Hawke.  I'm not ready and the devs will have a heck of a time trying to convince me the next protag will be better then Hawke.  I want that connection, that same closeness. (I) don't want another Warden, I've got plenty of games on my harddrive and shelves that I can get that from.
5) I didn't feel like I was spending eons in the underground that seemed to have no end like I did in Origins.
These aren't the only things though as I stated earlier but I see no point in repeating myself lol.  Fingers get tired

Anyways there's a lot of good in DA2 just like in Origins but for myself I prefered DA2.

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 16 avril 2012 - 03:50 .

[Dessalines]

Cydas wrote...

I believe they are trying to create an RPG that will attract huge masses to play the game(like Skyrim) but they fail to realize the true fans of their series are ones that want a hardcore RPG like DA:O...

I remember when Dragon Age: Origins showed its first video, how people made the claim that true hardcore rpgs like Baldour's Gate.

I think Bioware is listening to fans, but they know some fans like both games, or just like Dragon Age 2 or just like Dragon Age: Origins. Honestly, some of the complaints about both games are base are a personal  feelings blanketed in absolutes. There are movies that win Oscars year in and year out, that majority of the people have never seen if they did see it, they would rather watch something on Anime channel instead. Everyone has a "guily pleasure", be it a very annoying song or tv show.  Dragon Age 2 did not make much money as Dragon Age: Origins, but it was not a bomb. Dragon Age; Origins had flaws, and which I have find also funny some of  the "more" stuff people wanted made it to Dragon Ages; 2.

I think they said it best they want to make a somethign  that the fans willt like, but also game they want to make.

Bioware is not in the personal video game, No other medium even takes the time to talk to their fans prior to creating it to make sure they are happy with it.  The fact that they are doing this should be enough to make you feel your voice is being heard. Dave is been on the boards to clarify stuff. Really, you are now have concerns that you made have not been heard,., or you just concerned that they are not going to make the game exactly the way you envisioned it to be?.

Modifié par Dessalines, 16 avril 2012 - 04:50 .

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

Mmw04014 wrote...

I don't even find it more visually appealing. I found it to look far too clean, bland, and crisp. I liked that Origins looked dirty and muddled. I also liked that it had a very distinctive traditional fantasy feel to it. DA2 looked like a mish mash of concepts that looked "cool" but didn't have any coherency or regard for the precedent set by Origins.

Also, I really miss the less than perfect teeth the characters had. Everyone in DA2 had pearly whites. I hated it.

YEAH - I THINK THEY SHOULD LEAVE THE SPIKY EVERYTHING TO THE PROS.

[Maria Caliban]

Mmw04014 wrote...


I legitimately can't think of one thing that I believe Bioware did better in DA2 rather than Origins, so no, what you say isn't "true." You speak only for yourself.

Everyone is entitled to their tastes. But surely you can see why BioWare wouldn't listen to your feedback and the feedback of people who share your opinion?

Fandango9641 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

I have this creeping feeling that Bioware might have been listening more to feedback from fans who already like DA2, than investigating why those who disliked DA2 with such vehemence, did so. If that is the case, the only thing that DA3 will accomplish is that the DA2-fans will get a better, more polished game. Will that sell?

They're listening to people who like the game but would like to see improvements as opposed to those who dislike the game? That's a sound strategy.

Are you saying this tongue in cheek Maria (if not, do you care to explain why)?

I was sincere.

BioWare develops the games it wants to develop and EA will pay it to develop. High level decisions are not something they listen to the fans on nor should they. A game developer sinks or swims on its own ideas and skills, not polling the fanbase for features.

What venues like this forum are good for are getting detailed feedback on how specific, already decided upon, features effect various fans.

For example, in the armor customization thread, there were fans who said, ‘I like this idea, but I’d rather armor prerequisites be stat based, not class based,’ and there were those who said, ‘I don’t like this idea, go back to how it was in DA: Origins.’

The first feedback is just more useful and so it’s more likely the developers will listen to it.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 16 avril 2012 - 05:22 .

[seraphymon]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Everyone is entitled to their tastes. But surely you can see why BioWare wouldn't listen to your feedback and the feedback of people who share your opinion?

No i dont see why. her opinion is as valid as any others, even if the devs dont agree. Can have the reasons explained why as well, so why wouldnt the devs listen if the person made their opinion the way they like to listen to?

Maria Caliban wrote...
I was sincere.

BioWare develops the games it wants to develop and EA will pay it to develop. High level decisions are not something they listen to the fans on nor should they. A game developer sinks or swims on its own ideas and skills, not polling the fanbase for features.

What venues like this forum are good for are getting detailed feedback on how specific, already decided upon, features effect various fans.

For example, in the armor customization thread, there were fans who said, ‘I like this idea, but I’d rather armor prerequisites be stat based, not class based,’ and there were those who said, ‘I don’t like this idea, go back to how it was in DA: Origins.’

The first feedback is just more useful and so it’s more likely the developers will listen to it.

Cept problem is if they listen from after DAO and what we got was DA2, that conflicts. Fixing what wasnt broken, doing a 180,  trying to beappealing to non RPG/ COD fans. Now mostly its all doe to the direction ML wants to take it, which i find isnt correct or as well as Brent Knowles, but in any buisness they key is to appease your customers, while conflicting in alot of things, at the end of the day decisions have to be made, so when its question of appealing to the minority or majority, you would think its best to get the majority first and foremost.

[Maria Caliban]

seraphymon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Everyone is entitled to their tastes. But surely you can see why BioWare wouldn't listen to your feedback and the feedback of people who share your opinion?

No i dont see why. her opinion is as valid as any others, even if the devs dont agree. Can have the reasons explained why as well, so why wouldnt the devs listen if the person made their opinion the way they like to listen to?

Because her feedback isn't as useful as that of someone who actually likes the game.

DA 3 will be like DA II in a number of aspects. They've already decided there will be a voiced protagonist. It makes far more sense to listen to people who like the voiced protagonist but want some improvements than people who hate the voiced protagonist and want it to burn in a fire.

That they spend time talking to all their fans on this forum is great, but at the end of the day, some opinions will be more useful than others to them.

seraphymon wrote...


Cept problem is if they listen from after DAO and what we got was DA2, that conflicts. Fixing what wasnt broken, doing a 180,  trying to beappealing to non RPG/ COD fans. Now mostly its all doe to the direction ML wants to take it, which i find isnt correct or as well as Brent Knowles, but in any buisness they key is to appease your customers, while conflicting in alot of things, at the end of the day decisions have to be made, so when its question of appealing to the minority or majority, you would think its best to get the majority first and foremost.

Is that really want you want? BioWare games designed by focus groups and marketing studies?

Designing for 'the majority' is designing for the lowest common denominator. I know there are business realities BioWare has to deal with but at the end of the day, I'd like them to make the game they want to make, and make it so good that people can't help but like it.

I think Mass Effect is a great example of this. Science fiction RPG/TPS aren't commonplace and their vocal fanbase (on the forums) hated it with a burning passion when it was first announced.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 16 avril 2012 - 06:20 .

[seraphymon]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Because her feedback isn't as useful as that of someone who actually likes the game.

DA 3 will be like DA II in a number of aspects. They've already decided there will be a voiced protagonist. It makes far more sense to listen to people who like the voiced protagonist but want some improvements than people who hate the voiced protagonist and want it to burn in a fire.

That they spend time talking to all their fans on this forum is great, but at the end of the day, some opinions will be more useful than others to them.

That is not true. The only way that is, is if they agree or share their view, and or they are very biased. feedback should, and by their say be treated equally if done in the correct matter. Im sure DA3 will be more like DA2, not so much because of feedback, but because they  or should i say ML wants it to go that way. Even he himself has admmited to being biased towards some things. And no it doesnt make sense to listen just to people who like voice Protag. I mean the fanbase is split on that, so they have to make a decision, and in their view voiced protag fits with the direction they want to go. Id figure that would be the case even if 100% of people didnt want voiced protag. That still doesnt mean those, (who do not want voiced protag) opinion's should have any lesser value.

Some opinions are worth more than others thats true, but not or at least shouldn't be because of likes or dislikes, but how people have expressed those opinions. Even if it meant not likeing or cant find improvements in DA

maria Caliban wrote...
Is that really want you want? BioWare games designed by focus groups and marketing studies?

Designing for 'the majority' is designing for the lowest common denominator. I know there are business realities BioWare has to deal with but at the end of the day, I'd like them to make the game they want to make, and make it so good that people can't help but like it.

I think Mass Effect is a great example of this. Science fiction RPG/TPS aren't commonplace and their vocal fanbase (on the forums) hated it with a burning passion when it was first announced.

Theres 2 different majorities. One is the one i think Bioware tried to do with DA2, as much as they could while still trying to be RPG anyways. The other, which is what i mean is their established fan base. Not forsake them, just cause lead designers change, and the new one didnt really like the first game to begin with.  Which means doing a 180 with a game, and trying to change soo much soo fast with soo little budget and time. trying to implement things they arent good at or at leats not as well as other game series, instead of staying true to what their strengths are.

Modifié par seraphymon, 16 avril 2012 - 06:49 .

[Cultist]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Everyone is entitled to their tastes. But surely you can see why BioWare wouldn't listen to your feedback and the feedback of people who share your opinion?

And that's why we wonder, why BioWare listens and values the feedback that alienated a great portion of BioWare tatidional fan base and resulted in financially unsuccessful DA2.

Maria Caliban wrote...

BioWare develops the games it wants to develop and EA will pay it to develop. High level decisions are not something they listen to the fans on nor should they. A game developer sinks or swims on its own ideas and skills, not polling the fanbase for features.

What venues like this forum are good for are getting detailed feedback on how specific, already decided upon, features effect various fans.

For example, in the armor customization thread, there were fans who said, ‘I like this idea, but I’d rather armor prerequisites be stat based, not class based,’ and there were those who said, ‘I don’t like this idea, go back to how it was in DA: Origins.’

The first feedback is just more useful and so it’s more likely the developers will listen to it.

You will be surprised, but that is exactly what Blizzard, Valve and Paradox interactive do. And I can't remember quarter a million people nominating Blizard or Valve as a Worst Company. they are stll at the top. And with Paradox developers interacting with fans on weekly basis and often implement ideas players tell them in new patches. 
The best example of fandom interaction is Valve's Left 4 Dead 2 story - fans complained a lot and even boycotted L4D2 , assuming it was developed too soon and too quickly after original L4D. Valve adressed two most vocal members of the community and paid their tickets so they can arrive at Valve office and personally see that things with L4D2 are going the right way. Those two gone there and after observing the game status they assured the fandom that L4D2 was a high-quality product. Result - fans calmed down and L4D2 proved to be a bestseller.
This interaction with the community assured Valve's reputation as extremely customer-friendly company. They are not accusing fans that they are just a vocal minority or do not understand what's better for them.

Modifié par Cultist, 16 avril 2012 - 07:11 .

[Cultist]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Is that really want you want? BioWare games designed by focus groups and marketing studies?

Designing for 'the majority' is designing for the lowest common denominator. I know there are business realities BioWare has to deal with but at the end of the day, I'd like them to make the game they want to make, and make it so good that people can't help but like it.

DA2 slaes proved that focus groups find Origins more appealing and changes BioWare made with the sequel shunned players to a such degree, that DA2 sold two times worse than Origins did. And it is doubtful that playerbase lost with DA2 will return for DA2 v.2.0

Modifié par Cultist, 16 avril 2012 - 07:02 .

[AlexJK]

Cultist wrote...

DA2 sales proved that focus groups find Origins more appealing and changes BioWare made with the sequel shunned players to a such degree, that DA2 sold two times worse than Origins did...

Sales figures didn't, and can't, prove anything of the sort. The difference could be due to any combination of:
- marketing
- price
- box art
- other games released at the same time
- genre of game
- reviews
- quality of game
- content of game

And so on.

[AlexJK]

Cultist wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

BioWare develops the games it wants to develop and EA will pay it to develop. High level decisions are not something they listen to the fans on nor should they. A game developer sinks or swims on its own ideas and skills, not polling the fanbase for features.

You will be surprised, but that is exactly what Blizzard, Valve and Paradox interactive do.

Not really, no.

Taking Blizzard; if they listened to all the suggestions made on the official forums about Diablo 3, they would just re-release Diablo 2 with some graphical updates. Likewise, if Bioware listened to these forums, DA3 would be Origins again.

Fan feedback is crucial, and ALL developers will listen to and act on it where it's possible for them to do so. Does that mean that every time the vocal minority doesn't like a feature, that feature will be changed? Of course not.

The best example of fandom interaction is Valve's Left 4 Dead 2 story...

I think the example you give here is a great example how to do public relations, something a lot of developers could learn from. Does it show that Valve developed L4D2 based entirely on community feedback? Of course not! They made a great game from their own ideas, and said "come and see how good it is", and it was.

Modifié par AlexJK, 16 avril 2012 - 08:26 .

[Cultist]

AlexJK wrote...
Not really, no.
Taking Blizzard; if they listened to all the suggestions made on the official forums about Diablo 3, they would just re-release Diablo 2 with some graphical updates. Likewise, if Bioware listened to these forums, DA3 would be Origins again.

But it is Diablo 2 with graphical updates plus skills and interface tweaking. They actually collected information on what people disliked about D2 the most and fixed it.

Fan feedback is crucial, and ALL developers will listen to and act on it where it's possible for them to do so. Does that mean that every time the vocal minority doesn't like a feature, that feature will be changed? Of course not.

Here comes the difference. For example, with Blizzard collects main information from limited group of players, namely, pro-leagues, who know how game i functioning and how to balance it better. I have no idea from whom BioWare get their understanding of what RPG lovers want, but strongly suspect EA and their "More action!More Arcade! More awesome buttons!"

I think the example you give here is a great example how to do public
relations, something a lot of developers could learn from. Does it show
that Valve developed L4D2 based entirely on community feedback? Of
course not! They made a great game from their own ideas, and said "come
and see how good it is", and it was.

They got weekly surveys, located in game menu, same goes for forums. They implemented melee weapons and made levels brighter exactly due to fan petitions. Spitters also have been added due to community complaints.
And TF2 - well, sufice to say that they add best community-created items into the game and run testing Beta version to test their ideas for balance changes.
Imagine if BioWare started something liekthat - I think we could at least partly avert DA2 debacle.

Modifié par Cultist, 16 avril 2012 - 09:12 .

[AkiKishi]

Firky wrote...

What is happening then? I can't figure it out. (It's been a while.) Is that warrior Hawke doing something with stagger? It seems to have a wide arc.

OK. I'm really not trying to derail, (I just love combat screenshots) so I'll address the OP. As someone who loved both DAO and DA2, I'd probably guess that people who liked DA2 (as a generalisation) mostly liked both. So, I think listening to people who liked DAO but not DA2 makes sense. Assuming the game is still pitched as RPG. (Which I think DA2 moved away from in many regards.)

And I totally agree that the gamer can forgive a game lots and lots of faults as long as the overall impression is good (or, possibly, doesn't annoy you too much.) It might be fairly individual, though. The QTEs/cutscenes during combat in Witcher 2 drove me bananas. But I didn't mind the blood in DA2. I actually kinda liked it, for the really difficult battles. It reminded me of those massive critical hits in BG2 exploding people.

Warrior/Reaver.

[AkiKishi]

deuce985 wrote...

I doubt it has cinematic value and storytelling like Bioware does though.

That game looks interesting and I want to try it...but I don't trust Japanese game development+Capcom.

It's quite open world but also cinematic. I'll give you the Capcom point though. I would not trust them to tell me the time of day.

Has a lot of interesting features like being able to send pawns to different worlds for training. The AI learns (a bit like FFXIII) more effective ways to fight. I don't mind playing a "board game" if it's paces like DA or TB. But at faster speeds I don't want to be pausing the game every couple of seconds , that goes against the point of having faster combat.

[coles4971]

seraphymon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Everyone is entitled to their tastes. But surely you can see why BioWare wouldn't listen to your feedback and the feedback of people who share your opinion?

No i dont see why. her opinion is as valid as any others, even if the devs dont agree. Can have the reasons explained why as well, so why wouldnt the devs listen if the person made their opinion the way they like to listen to?

Maria Caliban wrote...
I was sincere.

BioWare develops the games it wants to develop and EA will pay it to develop. High level decisions are not something they listen to the fans on nor should they. A game developer sinks or swims on its own ideas and skills, not polling the fanbase for features.

What venues like this forum are good for are getting detailed feedback on how specific, already decided upon, features effect various fans.

For example, in the armor customization thread, there were fans who said, ‘I like this idea, but I’d rather armor prerequisites be stat based, not class based,’ and there were those who said, ‘I don’t like this idea, go back to how it was in DA: Origins.’

The first feedback is just more useful and so it’s more likely the developers will listen to it.

Cept problem is if they listen from after DAO and what we got was DA2, that conflicts. Fixing what wasnt broken, doing a 180,  trying to beappealing to non RPG/ COD fans. Now mostly its all doe to the direction ML wants to take it, which i find isnt correct or as well as Brent Knowles, but in any buisness they key is to appease your customers, while conflicting in alot of things, at the end of the day decisions have to be made, so when its question of appealing to the minority or majority, you would think its best to get the majority first and foremost.

Okay, hold on a minute, how was DA2 trying to be appealing to Call of Duty fans?

Call of Duty.

Dragon Age.

They're like ... two completely different games 

[AkiKishi]

coles4971 wrote...
Okay, hold on a minute, how was DA2 trying to be appealing to Call of Duty fans?

Call of Duty.

Dragon Age.

They're like ... two completely different games 

Yep, bit of a leap isn't it ? Problem is action game fans don't want to watch long cinematics either. A friend of mine who is way more into CoD than I am played FFXIII and skipped every cut scene to get to the action bits. You can't do that in DA and he got bored quickly.

No matter how actiony you make the combat, as long as you are required to sit through cut scenes (ME's action mode makes it worse in some ways) to progress it's not going to matter. TES gets away with it because you spend far more time actually doing stuff because you are less tied to cinematics and more to exploration/combat.

[AlexJK]

Cultist wrote...

But it is Diablo 2 with graphical updates plus skills and interface tweaking. They actually collected information on what people disliked about D2 the most and fixed it.

I don't think "skills tweaking" adequately describes the differences between D2 and D3, in the same way as "combat tweaking" wouldn't describe the difference between DAO and DA2...

Valve got weekly surveys, located in game menu, same goes for forums. They implemented melee weapons and made levels brighter exactly due to fan petitions. Spitters also have been added due to community complaints. And TF2 - well, sufice to say that they add best community-created items into the game and run testing Beta version to test their ideas for balance changes.

Imagine if BioWare started something like that - I think we could at least partly avert DA2 debacle.

I think Bioware do that already; they analyse the anonymised playing stats reported back to them by the DAO and DA2 game clients, as well as feedback on these forums and elsewhere, and then they make a game based on that information. It's the same process, allowing for slight variations between different development companies (as you'd expect).

That said... I don't know what happened with DA2. My suspicion is that DA2 was more experimental than Bioware are prepared to admit. They changed everything - type of story (more personal), narrative method (retelling with long gaps), combat (awesome), loot (junk, follower armour, etc.) - in order to figure out which improvements worked and which didn't. Hopefully they always planned to feed that back into DA:The Next Thing...

Modifié par AlexJK, 16 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[astreqwerty]

It all comes down to time and money..bioware are skilled they know what they have to do in order to create a succesful rpg and have it be commercial too. The fate of the franchise is however in the hands of EA. One year and a half is not enough for a game daos scale or skyrims or TW2 to be made..neither is 2. Face it people rpgs are much more complex than most games (ME included). They require bigger dev cycles. End of story. No matter what bioware will say or do my decision om buying this game will solely depend on its dev time..

[AkiKishi]

astreqwerty wrote...

It all comes down to time and money..bioware are skilled they know what they have to do in order to create a succesful rpg and have it be commercial too. The fate of the franchise is however in the hands of EA. One year and a half is not enough for a game daos scale or skyrims or TW2 to be made..neither is 2. Face it people rpgs are much more complex than most games (ME included). They require bigger dev cycles. End of story. No matter what bioware will say or do my decision om buying this game will solely depend on its dev time..

Within 3 years we will certainly be into the next console generation. That means a smaller market, but also a less crowded market. It's not really the best time for long term projects.