189 réponses à ce sujet

[PinkShoes]

Yeah tbh i got that feeling to and it was a bit creepy lol.

But while thinking that they did show some stuff that is way more developed than DAO and DA2 like the armor. So im gunna stay hopeful but hopeful in the sense i'm sure if DA3 is bad thats the end of the DA series not just for me but as a whole.

[Cultist]

AlexJK wrote...
I don't think "skills tweaking" adequately describes the differences between D2 and D3, in the same way as "combat tweaking" wouldn't describe the difference between DAO and DA2...

It is exactly tweaking - the skill tree got its upgrades but remained the same at its basis. DA2 combat can't even be compared to Origins - that is entirely different systems. One - tactical combat, the other - arcade slasher. Instead of fixing many problems of Origins' combat BioWare overhauled it completely to resemble action and removed tactical element.

I think Bioware do that already; they analyse the anonymised playing stats reported back to them by the DAO and DA2 game clients, as well as feedback on these forums and elsewhere, and then they make a game based on that information. It's the same process, allowing for slight variations between different development companies (as you'd expect).

I hope so. As you can't figure certain things from statistics alone (Spitter from L4D2, if you understand). And that's what this topic is about - selectiveness of feedback.

Modifié par Cultist, 16 avril 2012 - 11:35 .

[Firky]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Firky wrote...

What is happening then? I can't figure it out. (It's been a while.) Is that warrior Hawke doing something with stagger? It seems to have a wide arc.

Warrior/Reaver.

Whoa. OK. I never played Reaver class. (But I kinda want to now.) Sorry, OP. That wasn't your intention.

[sickpixie]

Cultist wrote...

It is exactly tweaking - the skill tree got its upgrades but remained the same at its basis. DA2 combat can't even be compared to Origins - that is entirely different systems. One - tactical combat, the other - arcade slasher. Instead of fixing many problems of Origins' combat BioWare overhauled it completely to resemble action and removed tactical element.

With some tweaking (to both the systems and how enemies are set up), DA2's systems could be tactical. Dragon Age 2 discouraged it because you didn't need to plan or even use abilities with much consideration to win and when the use of tactics is superfluous you don't have tactical combat.

[Firky]

^ Terminology speaking, "tactics" was the menu that you use to say, "When X does X, do this." Personally, I hardly used it.

What I did was play both DAO and DA2 on nightmare, without the tactics menu. I am my own tactician. In DAO, I used a lot of cheese, kiting etc and found it pretty easy. In DA2, I found micromanaging every action difficult. The abilities took much longer to rechange so you had to keep some in reserve. Waves were coming at you, what did you have next? How you built your party was infinitely more important.

On the previous point about animations and blood - the way I played, it's a tiny, tiny part of combat. Party-based combat is a tricky one. To my mind, Origins didn't nail it. The action-hybrid thing in DA2 was closer. Legacy, closer still.

[Mmw04014]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...
I legitimately can't think of one thing that I believe Bioware did better in DA2 rather than Origins, so no, what you say isn't "true." You speak only for yourself.

Everyone is entitled to their tastes. But surely you can see why BioWare wouldn't listen to your feedback and the feedback of people who share your opinion?
 

No, I don't see why they would do that. I'm not a raging lunatic who has nothing to say other than to yell and scream. If I did, then yeah, ignore me, but I don't do that. I'm not demanding something that is impossible. I don't see why my opinion should be discarded by the devs just because I like Origins way better than DA2. There are TWO games in the Dragon Age series, not one. They should be taking in feedback from people in both camps.

Modifié par Mmw04014, 16 avril 2012 - 01:50 .

[AkiKishi]

Mmw04014 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...
I legitimately can't think of one thing that I believe Bioware did better in DA2 rather than Origins, so no, what you say isn't "true." You speak only for yourself.

Everyone is entitled to their tastes. But surely you can see why BioWare wouldn't listen to your feedback and the feedback of people who share your opinion?
 

No, I don't see why they would do that. I'm not a raging lunatic who has nothing to say other than to yell and scream. If I did, then yeah, ignore me, but I don't do that. I'm not demanding something that is impossible. I don't see why my opinion should be discarded by the devs just because I like Origins way better than DA2. There are TWO games in the Dragon Age series, not one. They should be taking in feedback from people in both camps.

On certain issues they have no intention of going back which would make listening to feedback pointless.
 

[The Elder King]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...
I legitimately can't think of one thing that I believe Bioware did better in DA2 rather than Origins, so no, what you say isn't "true." You speak only for yourself.

Everyone is entitled to their tastes. But surely you can see why BioWare wouldn't listen to your feedback and the feedback of people who share your opinion?
 

No, I don't see why they would do that. I'm not a raging lunatic who has nothing to say other than to yell and scream. If I did, then yeah, ignore me, but I don't do that. I'm not demanding something that is impossible. I don't see why my opinion should be discarded by the devs just because I like Origins way better than DA2. There are TWO games in the Dragon Age series, not one. They should be taking in feedback from people in both camps.

On certain issues they have no intention of going back which would make listening to feedback pointless.
 

As far as I know they'll not change for sure are the voiced PC and the dialogue wheel. I don't remember any other issues where they said they're not going to turn back or change from what they did in DA2.

Modifié par hhh89, 16 avril 2012 - 01:58 .

[Mmw04014]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...
I legitimately can't think of one thing that I believe Bioware did better in DA2 rather than Origins, so no, what you say isn't "true." You speak only for yourself.

Everyone is entitled to their tastes. But surely you can see why BioWare wouldn't listen to your feedback and the feedback of people who share your opinion?
 

No, I don't see why they would do that. I'm not a raging lunatic who has nothing to say other than to yell and scream. If I did, then yeah, ignore me, but I don't do that. I'm not demanding something that is impossible. I don't see why my opinion should be discarded by the devs just because I like Origins way better than DA2. There are TWO games in the Dragon Age series, not one. They should be taking in feedback from people in both camps.

On certain issues they have no intention of going back which would make listening to feedback pointless.
 

Sure, but it doesn't make listening to feedback pointless. For example, I hate the voiced protagonist and would rather any Dragon Age game have a silent protag. Bioware have said this isn't going to happen. If there was a thread about how to improve the voiced protag, if I went in there yelling about how silent is better and won't even engage in discussion, then yeah, they can ignore my "feedback." But I don't see why I, a person who prefers Origins and a silent protag, can't go into the thread and display my feelings on how the voice protag gets in the way of my roleplaying, etc. and how they can better improve it to make the voiced protag better to use for people who like a silent protag (like showing the full line after a couple seconds, etc).

Modifié par Mmw04014, 16 avril 2012 - 02:30 .

[gonzalez.melissa53]

You ever watch the movie American Pie? This has a point so stay with me . Well I have. My husband and I went to see it in theaters for one of our very first dates. I liked the second on some, the third one a little less. Can you see the pattern? I felt that these movies where just the same thing, over and over again. I mean, sure. They brought back characters I love but they were revisited the same way (at least for me) with little true growth and from my point of view this approach just got boring. I had out grow the happy/funny teen type flick.
Happily, the DA guys are not doing the same thing over and over again. I love DA:O. When I miss it I play it again. But I do not want them to try to "remake" it. I don't think it could or should be done. DA2 I liked too. I can see it's shortcomings but I still enjoyed it! That being said I look forward to the new, and hopefully different experience of DA3! Here's to not eating the same cake every release date... That would both take away from my love of the first taste and kill the excitement for future treats ! I do feel that they read forum and listen to their fans. As for news release, well. I'll admit to my greed and say I would like more information like, yesterday... Still they are only now in the process of making the game. Cut them some slack. PAX got me excited. I do feel that the DA team is listening and I for one can't wait to see what little details they show us next!
P.S.
Mr. Gaider LOVE YOUR WORK!!!! And Alistair did in fact love me !

[Uccio]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

4) More of a closeness with Hawke and family.  Yes there was some in Origins but not like DA2

This is actually the one thing I had problems with Origins. I wanted to have more storylines and discussion with each origins. For example:

1. my Cousland would have wanted to hunt down those soldiers (if alive) responsible for the death of his father and brothers wife and child. Also a nice memorial/burial moment for them.
2. My city elf would have wanted to have more discussion with his father and other relatives. Also give his father some money. He was a Warden and was walking around with a bag full of gold but his dad had to live in a shack in alienage.
3. My Dalish elf would have wanted to have one last meeting with his clan, atleast after the archdemon was slain.
4. My dwarven commoner would have more indepth discussion with his sister.
5. My noble dwarven would have wanted a shot for the throne and not just hand it over to someone else.

DA2 had more family related content but unfortunately failed to deliver.

[Zexiv]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Maybe I'm getting this all wrong here but isn't the point of this forum for BW to get ideas from thoughts and suggestions that are made by forumites?

What they do with it is off course their own choise.

I guess it comes down to what level of impact the feedback given actually results in a change.  If you're feeling very cynical you could take the approach that the majority of the feedback won't make a change and the interaction is there to give the players the illusion of being part of the process to avoid getting as many negative reactions when DA3 is released. 

If that's the way the player feels they'll likely not take part in posting or will have posted and decided to back away from the process since they've pretty much backed away from purchasing the next Dragon Age or possibly from Bioware if they feel patronized enough.

On the other hand the player may feel like they are contributing and if they feel like they've been heard and listened to and see examples where feedback was accepted or accept the rationale that was given for why a change wouldn't work.  This in turn could lead to more feedback and interest which in turn would lead to more sales.

It's not an enviable task to try to placate the two sides in the process.

Take it easy

[Dakota Strider]

There are some very interesting opinions, in support of both DA2 and DAO.  I am a statistics person, and always wonder what may affect some people to think one way, and another group of people may think another way.  There are probably a lot of different factors that are the reasons for the differences in this debate.  I created a poll, to see if one particular factor is making a significant difference.  

If you prefer Dragon Age 2 over Dragon Age Origins, is Dragon Age 2 your first experience with Bioware RPGs? 

This is not to pass judgement, everyone knows that the marketplace is an ever changing, dynamic place.  And I am sure, that Bioware/EA already has most of this information, from their data harvesting methods.  But I believe it is interesting to know, what may influence opinion in something so important to all Dragon Age fans. 

Please take the poll here:  http://social.biowar...90/polls/32329/

Regardless of the results of the poll, I doubt it can determine which side has a more valid opinion than the other.  If it can even be said that one side has a more valid opinion, in the first place.  This is just meant to give us a new perspective.

[Nomen Mendax]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...
I legitimately can't think of one thing that I believe Bioware did better in DA2 rather than Origins, so no, what you say isn't "true." You speak only for yourself.

Everyone is entitled to their tastes. But surely you can see why BioWare wouldn't listen to your feedback and the feedback of people who share your opinion?
 

No, I don't see why they would do that. I'm not a raging lunatic who has nothing to say other than to yell and scream. If I did, then yeah, ignore me, but I don't do that. I'm not demanding something that is impossible. I don't see why my opinion should be discarded by the devs just because I like Origins way better than DA2. There are TWO games in the Dragon Age series, not one. They should be taking in feedback from people in both camps.

On certain issues they have no intention of going back which would make listening to feedback pointless.
 

Exactly, I have a number of well thought out and rational reasons why I think a fully voiced protoganist and a more cinematic style are not what I want to see.  But that's what they've decided to, and you are not going to convince them to change their minds.

So if you want to use the forum to influence DA3 you have to accept that you can't make major changes in the direction that the frachise is going, just by saying you don't like it, however well reasoned your arguments may be.

[Dakota Strider]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...
I legitimately can't think of one thing that I believe Bioware did better in DA2 rather than Origins, so no, what you say isn't "true." You speak only for yourself.

Everyone is entitled to their tastes. But surely you can see why BioWare wouldn't listen to your feedback and the feedback of people who share your opinion?
 

No, I don't see why they would do that. I'm not a raging lunatic who has nothing to say other than to yell and scream. If I did, then yeah, ignore me, but I don't do that. I'm not demanding something that is impossible. I don't see why my opinion should be discarded by the devs just because I like Origins way better than DA2. There are TWO games in the Dragon Age series, not one. They should be taking in feedback from people in both camps.

On certain issues they have no intention of going back which would make listening to feedback pointless.
 

Exactly, I have a number of well thought out and rational reasons why I think a fully voiced protoganist and a more cinematic style are not what I want to see.  But that's what they've decided to, and you are not going to convince them to change their minds.

So if you want to use the forum to influence DA3 you have to accept that you can't make major changes in the direction that the frachise is going, just by saying you don't like it, however well reasoned your arguments may be.

However, even if they have determined a large part of what they plan to do with DA3, it does not invalidate that a very large amount of people want them to do something different.  Perhaps it is already too late for them to change the direction of DA3 in that regard.  But someone will notice what a very large percentage of the gaming public wants.  And while it may not be DA3 that provides that for them, it may be a future game.  Hopefully Bioware will be that company, but it very well could be another company that sees an opportunity to capture Bioware fans, by giving them what they want.

So, even if it is too late to affect big decision in DA3, it is still important for dissenting opinions to be heard.  Otherwise, you will never get what you want.

[Zexiv]

Nomen Mendax wrote...
Exactly, I have a number of well thought out and rational reasons why I think a fully voiced protoganist and a more cinematic style are not what I want to see.  But that's what they've decided to, and you are not going to convince them to change their minds.

So if you want to use the forum to influence DA3 you have to accept that you can't make major changes in the direction that the frachise is going, just by saying you don't like it, however well reasoned your arguments may be.

You might not change their minds but if you're still on the fence about buying the product then I'd post feedback and your arguements in favor of it anyways.  Ultimately you'll have to decide with your wallet if you want to buy the game but if you do you could then look at the arguements you'd made and see if you still were in agreement with them or not after playing it.

For myself I'm not sure if I'll buy DA3... I know I'll wait to see what DAO fans think of it before making a choice.  That said when I read that they were accepting feedback for DA3 I felt like I should speak now or forever hold my peace on the matter. I went ahead and PM'd Mark Darrah with a couple pages worth of feedback on the two games and figured I'd actively check out the forums.

As for if I should be cynical or optimistic I go back and forth on it. 
Take it easy

[Nomen Mendax]

Dakota Strider wrote...

However, even if they have determined a large part of what they plan to do with DA3, it does not invalidate that a very large amount of people want them to do something different.  Perhaps it is already too late for them to change the direction of DA3 in that regard.  But someone will notice what a very large percentage of the gaming public wants.  And while it may not be DA3 that provides that for them, it may be a future game.  Hopefully Bioware will be that company, but it very well could be another company that sees an opportunity to capture Bioware fans, by giving them what they want.

So, even if it is too late to affect big decision in DA3, it is still important for dissenting opinions to be heard.  Otherwise, you will never get what you want.

I agree with you, just don't expect those opinons to change DA3.  But it is probably more productive to make a conscious effort to target your criticisms.  In other words, if the thread is about things you'd like to see in DA3 maybe focus on those things you think the developers might actually consider doing.

[Mmw04014]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Exactly, I have a number of well thought out and rational reasons why I think a fully voiced protoganist and a more cinematic style are not what I want to see.  But that's what they've decided to, and you are not going to convince them to change their minds.

So if you want to use the forum to influence DA3 you have to accept that you can't make major changes in the direction that the frachise is going, just by saying you don't like it, however well reasoned your arguments may be.

This is true. I think that if anyone is still trying to be heard on the silent vs. voiced protagonist debate is wasting their time, but because I prefer a silent protag, I (and others like me) can give feedback about how to make that element more acceptable to us, that a person who actually likes the voiced protag probably wouldn't mention. So even if I don't believe that a voiced protag is the way to go, I can still be involved in the discussion to make it not so much of a hinderance for me.

Modifié par Mmw04014, 16 avril 2012 - 04:55 .

[Maria Caliban]

No one said you couldn't be involved in the discussion. The issue is whether BioWare listens to you and weighs your feedback as much as that of someone who likes the voiced protagonist.

This thread isn't about BioWare allowing us to talk or even just listening to us. It's about them applying our ideas or moving in a way we want them to move.

On several occasions, I've talked about wanting RPGs to have no inventory and little to no combat. I explained why I wanted this and the positive effect it would have on the game. I'm a long time BioWare fan and have all of their PC RPGs.

Does this mean that they're obliged to apply my ideas?

If one of the devs is in a thread and they see me talking about getting rid of combat, do they need to read everything I say, or is it fine for them to think 'This isn't for DA/This doesn't interest me/Maria is nuts?'

Because if developers are bad for filtering your comments about wanting a silent protagonist, they're just as bad for filtering mine about no inventory.

[Mmw04014]

Maria Caliban wrote...

No one said you couldn't be involved in the discussion. The issue is whether BioWare listens to you and weighs your feedback as much as that of someone who likes the voiced protagonist.

This thread isn't about BioWare allowing us to talk or even just listening to us. It's about them applying our ideas or moving in a way we want them to move.

On several occasions, I've talked about wanting RPGs to have no inventory and little to no combat. I explained why I wanted this and the positive effect it would have on the game. I'm a long time BioWare fan and have all of their PC RPGs.

Does this mean that they're obliged to apply my ideas?

If one of the devs is in a thread and they see me talking about getting rid of combat, do they need to read everything I say, or is it fine for them to think 'This isn't for DA/This doesn't interest me/Maria is nuts?'

Because if developers are bad for filtering your comments about wanting a silent protagonist, they're just as bad for filtering mine about no inventory.

You're misunderstanding me. You seems to think I would still be arguing for a silent protagonist. I'm not.

My own personal preference is immaterial as long as I'm discussing how to improve a voiced protag. In fact, because I prefer a silent protag, I can give different input on how the voiced protag could better for me, that someone who prefers a voiced protag might not think of.

[Zexiv]

Maria Caliban wrote...

No one said you couldn't be involved in the discussion. The issue is whether
BioWare listens to you and weighs your feedback as much as that of someone who
likes the voiced protagonist.  (Not limited at voiced protagonist but DA2
from the original post)

This thread isn't about BioWare allowing us to talk or even just listening to
us. It's about them applying our ideas or moving in a way we want them to move.
(agreed even if they are in different dirrections having them give a compelling
arguement might help smooth some ruffled feathers)

On several occasions, I've talked about wanting RPGs to have no inventory and
little to no combat. I explained why I wanted this and the positive effect it
would have on the game. I'm a long time BioWare fan and have all of their PC
RPGs.

Does this mean that they're obliged to apply my ideas?  (Nope, but I'd
expect it to be part of your calculation of if this or another game was worth
buying and playing in the future.)

I think going back to the original post it's more the principal that the
game is being built off of Dragon Age 2 and not Origins that makes some of the those
that preferred Origins over DA2 uncomfortable. The discussion to a degree is to
what level are they really taking feedback and what can you really change or
does this just provide the illusion of having an impact and being able to
facilitate a change. 

Either way you look at it if you decided not to invest the time to provide feedback when it’s being
semi encouraged by Bioware, according to various gaming magazines, then I’d
consider it somewhat forfeiting your opportunity to provide feedback on DA3
since you didn’t try to voice your opinions when the door was open.

Take it easy

Modifié par Zexiv, 16 avril 2012 - 05:32 .

[Uccio]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Because her feedback isn't as useful as that of someone who actually likes the game. 

Now that is fundamentally wrong. Not paying attention to a customers feedback who bought your product, even negative one, is poor business. Expecially if there are a lot of customers giving this negative feedback. I´ve worked in a international company as a after sales manager and I can tell you that decision such as you suggest can be fatal for the company (happened in my case, not my doing but the management team). So if Bioware gets a lot of negative feedback and shrughs it off concentrating only to positive feedback they are sticking fingers into their collective ears and closing their eyes, so to speak.

AlexJK wrote...

Sales figures didn't, and can't, prove anything of the sort. The difference could be due to any combination of:
- marketing
- price
- box art
- other games released at the same time
- genre of game
- reviews
- quality of game
- content of game

And so on.

But they do. Obviously pure profit after deductions tells the final result but the overall sales figures tell you the direction you are going. Some of the Issues you mentioned are related to a degree to total sales but they are also related to total in all of the prodcut cases be it DAO or DA2. So the fluctuation in these areas is most likely not that different when compared each game. 

ps. sorry for my poor english, wrote in haste.

Modifié par Ukki, 16 avril 2012 - 05:31 .