191 réponses à ce sujet

[Marvin TPA]

MerinTB wrote...



See, right here is my problem with a lot of forum posters.  The utilize the word "useless" to mean "not as effective", and they use the judgment call "there's no reason" to mean "I think it's the worse option."

Willpower is not USELESS - it does things, things that have tangible effects on the game.  There ARE reasons to point points into Willpower.

You can be of the opinion that it is better to always put your points in Magic instead of Willpower for whatever reasons you have, and mathematically and game design-wise you may well be RIGHT,
but
something being "better" is NOT the same thing as something else being "useless."

If a one pound paperweight will easily hold down your papers, it doesn't become useless just because using a ten pound paperweight  is ten-times heavier.

Excellent point well made.
This should be enough to end reasonable debate on the issue, unfortunately that leaves all the unreasonable stuff.

[Blue_dodo]

0mar wrote...

Willpower is useless, it's only 5 mana per point. Your average spell costs about 40 mana.

The biggest advantage of willpower is greater mental resistance. That is rendered moot because mages have a dozen ways of controlling the battlefield so that they will never encounter a mental resistance check. See a mage? Mana clash. See a group of mages? Sleep! There's no reason, ever, to put points into willpower.

 5 per point that adds up fast and some of us prefer not using sleep

that not me of course I love the spell, but at the same time it get really repetitive chugging a potion after every few casts besides more mana more buffs

[Sam -stone- serious]

I will be respecing my Morrigan just to make her full on magic and a cap of 20 for willpower just to see the results. I will report back with my findings.

[0mar]

Blue_dodo wrote...

0mar wrote...

Willpower is useless, it's only 5 mana per point. Your average spell costs about 40 mana.

The biggest advantage of willpower is greater mental resistance. That is rendered moot because mages have a dozen ways of controlling the battlefield so that they will never encounter a mental resistance check. See a mage? Mana clash. See a group of mages? Sleep! There's no reason, ever, to put points into willpower.

 5 per point that adds up fast and some of us prefer not using sleep

that not me of course I love the spell, but at the same time it get really repetitive chugging a potion after every few casts besides more mana more buffs

5 mana per willpower point adds up to an extra spell every 3 levels.   You get, at the most, 15 mana per level, most spells are 40-50 mana per cast.

[DragoonKain3]

A max magic mage don't chug pots like a madman. That's simply not true at all.

Seriously, if you pair that person up with a person who has rejuv, mass rejuv, and casts spellbloom every cooldown, you don't have to worry about mana for the most part. My last playthrough actually had me trying to 'push mana' just because I had problems using it all up, and I didn't have perma spellbloom on.

Not to mention there's other ways to get mana. Death syphon, in particular, solves your problems in large scale battles single handedly.


Simply put the difference between a max magic mage and a half/half mage is ~175 mana (you get around 70 attribute points by lvl 22, give or take points for tome usage). That's ONLY 1 regular lyrium pot difference for the max magic mage (~150 spellpower with buffs with ~350 base mana).

In comparison, a half half mage has about 110 spellpower with buffs, drinking a regular lyrium pot for 155 mana. So a max magic mage has ~19% increase in damage per spell cast (250/210).

Assuming you can cast Arcane Bolt with no cooldown every second at 15 mana/sec, it would take 23 seconds for the max magic mage to run out of mana, chug a lyrium pot on the 24th second in order to equalize mana, and then keep casting until the 36th second until they run out of mana again.. So for 36 seconds, you did 35 casts * 1.19 spellpower difference = 41.65 effective casts within 36 seconds. Compare that to the half and half mage who would only do 35 effective casts for 35 seconds before running OOM.

Even if you up the mana usage by 30 mana/sec (which is impractical, as you won't be slinging expensive AoEs one after the other due to long cooldowns), the max magic mage would do 20 casts worth of damage within 18 seconds, while the half/half mage would only do 18 casts within the same time frame.

This is all ignoring rejuv/mass rejuv/spellbloom and +mana regen from equips, which only serves to further widen the gap between the two, since it affects mana regen equally to both builds but the max magic build does more per each point of mana. This is also ignoring the fact that once the half/half build runs out of mana, the max magic build pulls out even further because they regenerate more mana per lyrium pot use. Also note that with the max magic mage, you will NOT run out of mana for maybe 95% of battles, if you know what you're doing. And the 5% of battle you do run out, the same will .


So yeah, if you want a min/maxed typical spellslinging sorceror, go max magic. If you don't care about powergaming, do whatever. WIL has its uses (it's not useless but its a waste to put points in it that could otherwise be put to MAG), but anyone saying it has equal value with MAG to your typical spellslinging mage clearly does not know what they're talking about.

[MerinTB]

It obviously doesn't have EQUAL value to Magic, no.

Just like Dex or Con on a Warrior doesn't have equal value to Str.

I think most people were, at worst, advocating at 2 to 1 ratio.

all the examples you list, DragoonKain3, of spell combos are character builds to do X - deal most damage in the least amount of time PLUS using spells and items to boost up mana regen and all the potions in the world.

Someone might not want to use the spell lines to get the rejuvenation, spell bloom, death syphon.

Also, the extra mana from Willpower allows you to keep more sustained buffs running longer. Sometimes you are playing the mage who's point in the party is to keep everyone else dealing more damage and be more protected as opposed to casting tons of spells. Mana potions, mana recovery spells, won't help when sustained abilities use up all your maximum mana.

To a certain line of thinking, as you outlined, all points in Magic make sense.

That line of thinking, however, is FAR from the only effective way, let alone only way, to play a mage.

Modifié par MerinTB, 06 décembre 2009 - 06:46 .

[Seifz]

I can't imagine playing a healer/support Mage with low Willpower. Getting off one giant heal isn't nearly as important as getting off a decent heal every X seconds.

[arrrasdgaehjskmszkm]

Another thing that happens in this game is that lyrium potions are not infinite at all. You can be empty in the last stages of DAO if you are not a blood mage.

[MerinTB]

arrrasdgaehjskmszkm wrote...

Another thing that happens in this game is that lyrium potions are not infinite at all. You can be empty in the last stages of DAO if you are not a blood mage.

Or if you don't take herbalism.

Or if you spend most of your money on other things (money is this game is one of the lowest amounts I've seen in a CRPG.)

[Seifz]

MerinTB wrote...

arrrasdgaehjskmszkm wrote...

Another thing that happens in this game is that lyrium potions are not infinite at all. You can be empty in the last stages of DAO if you are not a blood mage.

Or if you don't take herbalism.

Or if you spend most of your money on other things (money is this game is one of the lowest amounts I've seen in a CRPG.)

Really?  I think I bought all of the backpacks, 3 specialization guides, all of the +skill and +talent books, a staff for Morrigan, my Warden's armor "upgrade", and a bunch of Grandmaster runes, and I still have ~450g left at the end.  My new archer has more than 10g at the beginning of Lothering, and now I don't even have to worry about buying the specialization books!

Anyway, potions are pretty infinite with herbalism, but chugging potions is lame anyway.

[Lacan2]

No no, it really is useless (unless you want higher mental resistance checks or sustained spells, which I don't care about).



If you increase your mana pool instead of magic, your fights will last longer due to dishing out less damage. For instance, at one point (no spoilers) there were a group of mages. One fireball killed them all; if I had split between magic and willpower, it would have taken 1 fireball + another spell to kill them. The latter not only takes longer but also uses up more mana, which is why you put points into willpower to begin with.



Essentially, putting your points into magic instead of willpower is like having Spell Might or Spell Wisp active: you're sacrificing mana to make yourself more potent. Sustained spells are kind of a waste of time for most builds: you're sacrificing waaaaay too much mana that could be used for offensive power and healing. Only exception may be Miasma, but that's about it.

[Skellimancer]

Don't forget that higher magic means more mana from minor mana potions which are very cheap to make.

[miltos33]

A high willpower is a must for spirit healers.

[XOGHunter246]

this post is ridiculous will power useless maybe consitution is too and magic?

[Seifz]

Lacan2 wrote...

No no, it really is useless (unless you want higher mental resistance checks or sustained spells, which I don't care about).

If you increase your mana pool instead of magic, your fights will last longer due to dishing out less damage. For instance, at one point (no spoilers) there were a group of mages. One fireball killed them all; if I had split between magic and willpower, it would have taken 1 fireball + another spell to kill them. The latter not only takes longer but also uses up more mana, which is why you put points into willpower to begin with.

Essentially, putting your points into magic instead of willpower is like having Spell Might or Spell Wisp active: you're sacrificing mana to make yourself more potent. Sustained spells are kind of a waste of time for most builds: you're sacrificing waaaaay too much mana that could be used for offensive power and healing. Only exception may be Miasma, but that's about it.

All of this has no application to healing and support Mages, of course, who benefit greatly from increased willpower.

[Lacan2]

Seifz wrote...

Lacan2 wrote...

No no, it really is useless (unless you want higher mental resistance checks or sustained spells, which I don't care about).

If you increase your mana pool instead of magic, your fights will last longer due to dishing out less damage. For instance, at one point (no spoilers) there were a group of mages. One fireball killed them all; if I had split between magic and willpower, it would have taken 1 fireball + another spell to kill them. The latter not only takes longer but also uses up more mana, which is why you put points into willpower to begin with.

Essentially, putting your points into magic instead of willpower is like having Spell Might or Spell Wisp active: you're sacrificing mana to make yourself more potent. Sustained spells are kind of a waste of time for most builds: you're sacrificing waaaaay too much mana that could be used for offensive power and healing. Only exception may be Miasma, but that's about it.

All of this has no application to healing and support Mages, of course, who benefit greatly from increased willpower.

I'd say you should never have a pure "support" class. All of your mages, to be effective, should have both offense and defense. If you need mana, just make potions (they're infinite, anyway).

[Seifz]

Lacan2 wrote...

Seifz wrote...

Lacan2 wrote...

No no, it really is useless (unless you want higher mental resistance checks or sustained spells, which I don't care about).

If you increase your mana pool instead of magic, your fights will last longer due to dishing out less damage. For instance, at one point (no spoilers) there were a group of mages. One fireball killed them all; if I had split between magic and willpower, it would have taken 1 fireball + another spell to kill them. The latter not only takes longer but also uses up more mana, which is why you put points into willpower to begin with.

Essentially, putting your points into magic instead of willpower is like having Spell Might or Spell Wisp active: you're sacrificing mana to make yourself more potent. Sustained spells are kind of a waste of time for most builds: you're sacrificing waaaaay too much mana that could be used for offensive power and healing. Only exception may be Miasma, but that's about it.

All of this has no application to healing and support Mages, of course, who benefit greatly from increased willpower.

I'd say you should never have a pure "support" class. All of your mages, to be effective, should have both offense and defense. If you need mana, just make potions (they're infinite, anyway).

Of course my Mage has offensive spells.  However, it's almost always more beneficial for me to use her healing spells in tough encounters.  Potions make the game easy and no fun.  I rarely use them.

EDIT:  And anyway, this is a role-playing game.  If my Mage is a healer, my Mage is a healer.  Maybe he doesn't want to learn Fireball and all of those ridiculously overpowered abilities that some other Mages use.

Modifié par Seifz, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:34 .

[MartinJHolm]

Lacan2 wrote...

You can just suck down mana potions. It will only take a small time longer in comparison to the greatly increased damage you do, and ending the fight earlier while casting fewer spells.

Well you just aren't playing the game how it was intended, if you just chuck potions and don't use points in willpower all I can say is... good for you, but don't whine about a non-issue.

[Rolenka]

Rule of thumb for RPGs:

Spell Power > Regeneration > Maximum Mana

[Zarenthar]

XOGHunter246 wrote...

this post is ridiculous will power useless maybe consitution is too and magic?

As a matter of fact CONS and WILL are indeed useless as a mage. I finished the game on nightmare and all my mages had ZERO WILL and CONS. My mages all healed and DPS equally. You want raw power.

MOAR POWAAHHHH!!!!

[NetBeansAndJava]

All very interesting points... though I'm still thinking that willpower makes the game more fun. Sure you can always chug pots, but that's tedious if you ask me.



Besides, I can't think of a single battle where I was regretful that my spell left nearly dead mobs for melee to clean up rather than killing most of them outright. After all, the rest of my party deserve some fun too, eh?

[Dark83]

Hm.
Let us look at Winter's Grasp. 20 mana, 36 + 0.36*SP damage.

It takes 4 attributes to get an extra Winter's Grasp off. Let us compare it as if you have 20 mana base, with greater lyrium potions.
With a base SP of 0, we have 4 Mag vs 4 Will. So Winter's Grasp does 37.44 vs 36.

4 Mag
Round 1: Winter's Grasp 37.44
Round 2: Potion
Round 3: Winter's Grasp 37.44
Round 4: Potion
Round 5: Winter's Grasp 37.44
Round 6: Potion
Round 7: Winter's Grasp 37.44
Round 8: Potion
Round 9: Winter's Grasp 37.44
Total Damage: 187.2
Damage Per Round: 20.8

4 Wil
Round 1: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 2: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 3: Potion
Round 4: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 5: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 6: Potion
Round 7: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 8: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 9: Potion
Total Damage: 216
Damage Per Round: 24

Essentially, so long as your potions can restore the higher manapool, will results in greater damage in a greater amount of time - depending on your spell rotation. Spellpower is too weak in the calculations, really.

Modifié par Dark83, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:38 .

[NetBeansAndJava]

Not sure if you're analysis is correct Dark83. First of all, no mage will be oom from 1 winters grasp... this affects your calculations b/c even the mage w/ lower mana might be able to get off the same number of winters grasp between potion cooldowns than the high mana mage. In other words, the potion usage would be much less than every other time. Moreover, using a potion does not reset the timer of winters grasp and thus it should not take up "one round" in your timetable -- given that the mage doesn't need a potion every other spell.



In short, your analysis only applies to a mage w/ a very tiny mana pool. I think the base stats will be enough to cast at least 3 winters grasp before going oom... and you do get mana w/ every level, so there's that too.

[XOGHunter246]

Zarenthar wrote...

XOGHunter246 wrote...

this post is ridiculous will power useless maybe consitution is too and magic?

As a matter of fact CONS and WILL are indeed useless as a mage. I finished the game on nightmare and all my mages had ZERO WILL and CONS. My mages all healed and DPS equally. You want raw power.

MOAR POWAAHHHH!!!!

Yeah but more casting is also good making will not useless for mages especially healers

[Staylost]

Dark83 wrote...

Hm.
Let us look at Winter's Grasp. 20 mana, 36 + 0.36*SP damage.

It takes 4 attributes to get an extra Winter's Grasp off. Let us compare it as if you have 20 mana base, with greater lyrium potions.
With a base SP of 0, we have 4 Mag vs 4 Will. So Winter's Grasp does 37.44 vs 36.

4 Mag
Round 1: Winter's Grasp 37.44
Round 2: Potion
Round 3: Winter's Grasp 37.44
Round 4: Potion
Round 5: Winter's Grasp 37.44
Round 6: Potion
Round 7: Winter's Grasp 37.44
Round 8: Potion
Round 9: Winter's Grasp 37.44
Total Damage: 187.2
Damage Per Round: 20.8

4 Wil
Round 1: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 2: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 3: Potion
Round 4: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 5: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 6: Potion
Round 7: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 8: Winter's Grasp 36
Round 9: Potion
Total Damage: 216
Damage Per Round: 24

Essentially, so long as your potions can restore the higher manapool, will results in greater damage in a greater amount of time - depending on your spell rotation. Spellpower is too weak in the calculations, really.

Right idea, crazy wrong assumptions though. If you actually use the full mana pool the Magic mage will beat the Willpower mage if potions are always available (which they are not).