191 réponses à ce sujet

[Matthew Young CT]

People say 1 will, ooh 5 mana that's nothing.

They neglect to mention that 1 magic is at most 1% more damage though.

Modifié par Matthew Young CT, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:23 .

[Drithius]

All these posts about min-maxing a class that already  makes the game simplistic from the get-go just screams of bored people with nothing better to do.

I personally consider it cheap to use any potions at all;  even with that policy as well as playing on nightmare, the game is too easy  in  most parts.  Oh, and I don't have s00per L33t magic either.

Case in point, you don't  need to munchkinize a mage  - the class is already overpowered.

[Althernai]

The example is contrived, but it illustrates an important fact: each point of Magic generally improves spells by exactly 1%. That is not a large increase -- it will help you win faster, but not much faster, particularly when you include the fact that it takes time to drink potions.



Willpower is not useless. Exactly how much of it you need depends on the spell repertoire of the given mage. The more you rely on sustained spells, the more important Willpower becomes because your effective mana is diminished by these. In fact, even an Arcane Warrior would do well to have some since the class is most powerful when heavily buffed and high Willpower allows for a more seamless switch between mage and warrior.



The one exception to this are Blood Mages -- they use HP for casting and thus don't really need Willpower for anything beyond buffs (and you get +6 per level in any case).

[GilgameshXD]

Sure, 1 point of willpower is 5 mana, but it's useless when you can easily have 99 lesser potions for like what? 2 gold. That is enough to last you the entire game without putting a point into willpower. Make a second stack if you're paranoid.



While it's true that every point of magic gives only about 1% effectiveness to your spells, every point put into willpower is wasted. So the choice is simple.

[Seifz]

GilgameshXD wrote...

Sure, 1 point of willpower is 5 mana, but it's useless when you can easily have 99 lesser potions for like what? 2 gold. That is enough to last you the entire game without putting a point into willpower. Make a second stack if you're paranoid.

While it's true that every point of magic gives only about 1% effectiveness to your spells, every point put into willpower is wasted. So the choice is simple.

Unless you think that using potions is incredibly lame (and it is, since your enemies don't use potions).  Then, Willpower is fantastic.

[Inarai]

Willpower is not useless...



Sure, maybe you can work around having too small a pool to pay for spells with potions, but as a workaround it carries a disadvantage. What is that?



Potions will not help you with the upkeep for sustained abilities in the slightest. You don't spend mana to activate them, you shrink the possible size of your mana pool. If your max mana is smaller than the total upkeep of the sustains you wish to use, you cannot use them all no matter how many potions you knock back.



My mage tends to work in a certain way, actually:



Choose a sustained > Use up an amount of mana no less than it's upkeep > Activate that sustained. Since my mana is below the new maximum, I don't actually lose any.

[GilgameshXD]

Seifz wrote...

GilgameshXD wrote...

Sure, 1 point of willpower is 5 mana, but it's useless when you can easily have 99 lesser potions for like what? 2 gold. That is enough to last you the entire game without putting a point into willpower. Make a second stack if you're paranoid.

While it's true that every point of magic gives only about 1% effectiveness to your spells, every point put into willpower is wasted. So the choice is simple.

Unless you think that using potions is incredibly lame (and it is, since your enemies don't use potions).  Then, Willpower is fantastic.

I think gimping my character for not good reason is lame.

[Staylost]

I think we have many voices agreeing here.



1) Clearly, Willpower is not useless. First, it adds mental resistance (like Magic) and adds five mana to the mage's pool. Second, there are (many) times when a spell is needed instantly. A mage with more Willpower is a faster caster, more likely to be able to cast a spell at any given time, because she will be less likely to need to drink a potion at that moment. Willpower is both generally and specifically useful.



2) For any reason other than the second one above, Magic is superior to Willpower. They both add mental resistance so that is a wash. Added mana is irrelevent. Most good mage gear provides mana, there are plenty of potions, & mages have a good /level mana gain naturally. Magic, on the other hand, makes spells more difficult to resist & makes spells more powerful. These are clear advantages, while Willpower has none.



3) Using potions IS lame. We all know that. That doesn't mean it is wrong to use a potion. Willpower makes a mage that is more consistent with all of the descriptions of mages in DA lore. Potion drinking does not. But it is a legitimate mechanic that anyone who is playing at higher difficulty levels will want to remember.



In conclusion, a pure Magic caster is always the best caster unless they must drink potions so frequently they find themselves unable to cast at critical moments. They are also lame.

[Psychoray]

Man, It's a shame Bioware didn't put the lyrium potion addiction system in...

[Seifz]

GilgameshXD wrote...

Seifz wrote...

GilgameshXD wrote...

Sure, 1 point of willpower is 5 mana, but it's useless when you can easily have 99 lesser potions for like what? 2 gold. That is enough to last you the entire game without putting a point into willpower. Make a second stack if you're paranoid.

While it's true that every point of magic gives only about 1% effectiveness to your spells, every point put into willpower is wasted. So the choice is simple.

Unless you think that using potions is incredibly lame (and it is, since your enemies don't use potions).  Then, Willpower is fantastic.

I think gimping my character for not good reason is lame.

Good thing BioWare gives us options then, eh?  I can use Willpower, you can use potions, and we can both complete the game and enjoy all that it has to offer.

This whole argument is really quite silly!

[0mar]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

People say 1 will, ooh 5 mana that's nothing.

They neglect to mention that 1 magic is at most 1% more damage though.

1% more damage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 mana in every situation.

There's no real reason to get willpower except for role playing reasons.

[XOGHunter246]

so a healer without willpower can cast more heals with buffs? using potions takes like few seconds and that is all you need to die.

[Staylost]

XOGHunter246 wrote...

so a healer without willpower can cast more heals with buffs? using potions takes like few seconds and that is all you need to die.

Right. This is the only efficiency defense for willpower.

There is the aesthetic defense because chugging potions has been lame since D&D started.

And there is the "New-Player" defense. Since a first time player wouldn't have a knowledge of how to use crafting to get tonnes of money, nor would they be as good at mana managing, willpower would be good in their case.

But other than that (and these are reasonable reasons), Magic is clearly superior.

[Maconbar]

If the mage is primarily healing focused then willpower is usually very helpful. If its mainly there for dps then willpower is less valuable.

[Rolenka]

Psychoray wrote...

Man, It's a shame Bioware didn't put the lyrium potion addiction system in...

Was there talk of such a thing?

[Brian Chung]

Ooooo I just got the juicy details on the lyrium addiction system from Georg and man o man, it's insidious.

[Staylost]

Brian Chung wrote...

Ooooo I just got the juicy details on the lyrium addiction system from Georg and man o man, it's insidious.

Like, what? You get addicted in REAL LIFE!!!????

NOOOOOO!!!!

[Schyzm]

MerinTB wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Yeah, see, I'd rather have the mental resistance bonus AND the extra mana and not spend every 2nd or 3rd action drinking a potion then re-turning on my sustaineds that shut off due to running out of mana.

Or I could crunch numbers and do math and not play a single-player CRPG but instead need to game the system for the best possible selections ever. While I'm at it I might as well use a mod to just give me unlimited mana so I don't have to use potions at all. And then since I'm already there I could just turned off the cool-down timers on all spells. There we go.

Yeah, so, crunch your numbers and figure out the best way to win fights the fastest - if that is what makes the game fun for you, go to town!
Just don't come back later and complain the game is too easy.

not everyone enjoys being an intentional retard in the hope they don't break the game.  maybe you have more practice than we do?

Not everyone is an insulting min-max munchkin who's only way to have fun is to cut every corner.

Some people buy the story-based CRPGs to, well, role-play.

If you need to find the best formulas and only the surest way to kill things as that is your only idea of fun, knock yourself out with some MMOs.

you don't need any formula to figure out how bad willpower is.  just happen to know where the infinite potions are.  typical fanboi response though, showing aggression coupled with a complete lack of understanding about the game.

[trashmonk]

Brian Chung wrote...

Ooooo I just got the juicy details on the lyrium addiction system from Georg and man o man, it's insidious.

What exactly was the downside to a lyrium addiction system that made Bioware not implement it in the final build anyway?

Roleplayer-Serious-BIzznizz-erz : "Lyrium addiction for downing too many pots, very nice!"

Min-Maxing-Sonsa****es : "Sweet, Willpower is worth something now since I can't use over 9000 pots every fight without repercussions!"

Everyone-Else : Nothing, because everyone is in one of the above camps.

[Zibon]

You shouldn't use something like Winter's Grasp to compare, because it also has the freezing effect with benefits that can't be quantified in calculations.

[FedericoV]

Brian Chung wrote...

Ooooo I just got the juicy details on the lyrium addiction system from Georg and man o man, it's insidious.

Any chance of an hotfix for lyrium addiction ?

[MarloMarlo]

If you're not putting points in to magic as a mage, then you better be putting them in willpower, because you're going to be casting spells for a longer time than if you spent them on magic instead.

Dark83 wrote...
Spellpower is too weak in the calculations, really.

Yes, in situations with nine "rounds," 20 base mana, no potion benefits from Magic to take advantage of, and only 4 attribute points spent -- in other words, when not playing Dragon Age -- your calculation might work. Have fun using willpower on the forums.

[Gliese]

I find it a bit telling that almost noone is even thinking about putting points into anything besides magic or wil as a mage, never mind the discussion at hand. What does that say about the viability of the other 4 stats? That's not good..

[Palathas]

Brian Chung wrote...

Ooooo I just got the juicy details on the lyrium addiction system from Georg and man o man, it's insidious.

Cool, I wonder how it'll work getting off the Lyrium or if there's a nice balance between usage and addiction.

Although it sounds as if the addiction is effectively only going to be a secondary cool down timer.

I think I'll just stick to my 1 point Will and 2 points Magic from the first level up to the end of time.

That way I only need potions for Boss fights or swarms.

Gliese wrote...

I find it a bit telling that almost noone
is even thinking about putting points into anything besides magic or
wil as a mage, never mind the discussion at hand. What does that say
about the viability of the other 4 stats? That's not good..

Well, for me-

I wasn't planning on using armour nor using anything other than a staff so STR is pointless,

I wasn't going to use bows or daggers and ideally I won't get into melee so DEX isn't all that important. I've taken crowd control spells to avoid melee and I hammer archers if they start on me so I don't need DEX for defense, this plan comes unstuck occasionally but I'm happy with the risk.

I've only taken CUN high enough to get Master Coercian and learn Tactics as I find it can be useful when controlling others so that my character isn't standing there like a lump of wood.

I worked on CON for a little bit but found it to be pretty useless for me as well, I took Blood Mage but have found that I rarely switch to it except to lay down an occasional Blood Boil or if I'm out of Mana but the fight is close to over and I don't want to use a Lyrium pot.

Modifié par Palathas, 07 décembre 2009 - 02:02 .

[Shannara13]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

Some people don't like to spam potions after using a single spell.

Without putting any points into Willpower I had 300 mana which is more than enough for just about any fight except boss fights when you have 100 Spellpower.