191 réponses à ce sujet

[themaxzero]

T1l wrote...

Not at all, I think it's terrible design. The game is full of small things like that. Two Handers sucking so bad, daggers being the best dps weapon, high intial spell damage + crap spellpower scaling etc.

Of course the game is great fun none the less, it certinaly is a mess mechanics wise.

Then we're in agreement; I believe that it is a case of exactly that - poor design.

Then do something about (get a mod) rather then crying on the forums for Bioware to fix it for you.

But "If Bioware don't officially patch it, I ethically don't
have a problem with other people doing it" means you don't care either way right?

[Matthew Young CT]

GilgameshXD wrote...
Not at all, I think it's terrible design. The game is full of small things like that. Two Handers sucking so bad, daggers being the best dps weapon, high intial spell damage + crap spellpower scaling etc.

Of course the game is great fun none the less, it certinaly is a mess mechanics wise.

this isnt really fair. there are problems sure, but not even starcraft started out balanced very well. in fact i know of not one game that was out the box balanced. most are horribly, horribly unbalanced.

[T1l]

themaxzero wrote...

Then do something about (get a mod) rather then crying on the forums for Bioware to fix it for you.

But "If Bioware don't officially patch it, I ethically don't
have a problem with other people doing it" means you don't care either way right?

Not entirely. I like to see a finished product and, clearly, Dragon Age is not that. There are things in Dragon Age which, with more time, would have been rectified prior to launch; and I believe this is one of them. Like I said before, I don't think this is / was intended by the developers - that means something to me. If the people who make the rules say that this behaviour is "breaking the rules", then that means something to me.

Currently, the way this particular mechanic works with potions, is like playing a game of cards with aces up your sleeve.

You're right in saying that "I don't care either way" only to the extent in that I don't care how others play. I simply care that Dragon Age, at the end of the day, is a finished well-rounded product; modded or not.

[GilgameshXD]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

GilgameshXD wrote...
Not at all, I think it's terrible design. The game is full of small things like that. Two Handers sucking so bad, daggers being the best dps weapon, high intial spell damage + crap spellpower scaling etc.

Of course the game is great fun none the less, it certinaly is a mess mechanics wise.

this isnt really fair. there are problems sure, but not even starcraft started out balanced very well. in fact i know of not one game that was out the box balanced. most are horribly, horribly unbalanced.

Well yeah, I agree, but I don't know if we can expect serious balancing from bioware for this game, considering it's single player only. I'm not sure we would be getting the same treatment as games like Neverwinter Nights will.

[Gecon]

Well ... personally I'm focussing mostly on Magic. I do get some Willpower too though, simply so I can run more sustained Abilities and get more spells out before I need another potion.



Typically a mage under my control will have numbers like 15 Wil, 30 Mag; 20 Wil, 40 Mag; 25 Wil, 55 Mag, 30 Wil, 70 Mag etc.

[Matthew Young CT]

they never balanced nwn though, understandably because balancing it wouldve meant changing all sorts of dnd spells and abilities.

and i dont think we need serious starcraft level balancing, just kinda sorta balanced is fine.

[themaxzero]

The game was in development for 8 years. They were talking about this since BG2.



Its not like the game is terribly balanced. You can (and people have) finished it on nightmare with every class and every talent combo. Sure some have it easier then others but its not that extreme



I personally think for the fine tuning balance Bioware won't take much interest (like they didn't for NWN or BG).



Basically every single issue raised in this thread ALREADY has a mod that fixes it. Since these small balance changes are so subjective Bioware does not want to waste the money and time to test out balance patches to fix.



Spend that time making DLC.

[deathwing200]

The reason Bio couldn't make balance changes to NWN/BG was because they'd get in trouble with WoTC for changing DnD rules. Nothing is preventing them from changing the rules they created themselves.

[themaxzero]

deathwing200 wrote...

The reason Bio couldn't make balance changes to NWN/BG was because they'd get in trouble with WoTC for changing DnD rules. Nothing is preventing them from changing the rules they created themselves.

Yeah but what do they gain out of it? Is critical strike being crap really a big issue? Its not like the game is unplayable as a 2h warrior its just better as  a Mage. How much better is completely subjective. So why go through all that work, time and QQ when the playerbase as already fixed it themselves?

Sure technical bugs and such I expect Bioware to fix plus new DLC. But things like typos, minor balance tweaks can be handled by the playerbase.

[DragoonKain3]

I see no evidence that using lyrium pots is an oversight by the devs. I mean, the entire point of having lyrium pots but no stamina pots was because the Devs wanted to have someway for the mages to replenish their mana pool in battle.

So unless they take out Lyrium pots entirely (which they won't), the effectiveness of maxing magic will be here to stay. I mean, all I've ever used in battle are lesser lyrium pots, and I only used regular lyrium pots because I was too lazy to make some lesser ones and ran out of it mid dungeon (yeah, going to a new area with only 2 lesser lyrium pots wasn't a great idea lol). I haven't touched any of my tier 3/4 lyrium pots in my game, and I could use these in the case pots gets nerfed.

As such, even if they put longer cooldowns or reduced the healing factor, I seriously doubt things are going to change in that having max magic mage is the way to go. It might make it more expensive than it is right now, but considering gold (while not infinite) is easy to come by if you know what you're doing, it will change not a whit about hard/nightmare difficulty apart from using a higher tier potion rather than a lower one.

Althernai wrote...

DragoonKain3 wrote...

But to powergamers who wants their characters to be as powerful as they can be? Willpower is 'useless' for that purpose, considering that activated spells are much more powerful than sustains.

The choice is not between activated spells and sustains -- you can easily use both. The opportunity cost from spending points on things other than Magic is something on the order of 10-15% effectiveness of the activated spells. This is not worth building a character around it.

Yes, its pretty much one or the other. Why? Because of talent points restrictions. As a powergamer, one still does not have enough talent points to get every spell they want. I mean, if I already have to choose between Entropic Death combo or Storm of the Century combo for my max magic mage, how much more if I wanted to include more sustains? Sure my max magic Mage has some sustains, but those are merely gravy as they are prereqs for the more powerful activated abilities I wanted.

And 10-15% increase in effectiveness is pretty significant on bosses, as thats the difference between having spell wisp/might on and not. Sure against trash mobs, you probably won't see a difference, but you build your character against bosses, right?

This is especially true for checks, since its either your spellpower is high enough that they don't 'save' barring outright magic resist, or your spellpower isn't enough to affect the target. Since you don't know the magical number, you should get it as high as possible. After all, a CC is only worth its salt if it actually works.

[04WigmoreB]

Playing as An Arcane Warrior, I always have 4 or 5 sustained spells active which drains my mana to virtually nothing ant anything less than 30 willpower. So if I want to be able to cast spells, then A higher WIllpower is definately needed.

[Dark83]

There's an issue with time with regards to Willpower.

If you need to nova and toss off X amount of spells in as short a time as possible, then your mana pool becomes important. Mana Clash, Petrify, and Crushing Prison in quick succession without a delay of gluping a potion, for example.

[soteria]

themaxzero wrote...

deathwing200 wrote...

The reason Bio couldn't make balance changes to NWN/BG was because they'd get in trouble with WoTC for changing DnD rules. Nothing is preventing them from changing the rules they created themselves.

Yeah but what do they gain out of it? Is critical strike being crap really a big issue? Its not like the game is unplayable as a 2h warrior its just better as  a Mage. How much better is completely subjective. So why go through all that work, time and QQ when the playerbase as already fixed it themselves?

Sure technical bugs and such I expect Bioware to fix plus new DLC. But things like typos, minor balance tweaks can be handled by the playerbase.

It should be fixed because, as I think we all agree in principle, a balanced game > an unbalanced game.  Bioware has a commitment to making quality games, and in this case they have the ability and the authority to make it balanced.  Making Dragon Age the best game it can be is important for Bioware's reputation as a game producer.  Honestly, the level of attention they give to this sort of issue is going to affect my decisions for purchasing future Bioware games, such as SW:TOR.  After all, if I find they can't balance this game or just don't seem to care about it, what does that mean for an MMO?  Or, farther in the future, what does it mean for future titles?  Can I expect future games to be unbalanced as well?

Prior to release, they talked about how difficult the game was on hard/nightmare.  Having played, I can see why they thought so, but ultimately disagree, because certain aspects were left unbalanced.  Easy games don't get the same respect a challenging game gets, and a certain type of player looks for that challenge in games they buy.

[Gecon]

themaxzero wrote...
The game was in development for 8 years.

Err, 5 years. This game wasnt planned in 2001 already.

[Dark83]

What really gets me is the contempt for Willpower here when previous threads concluded that Magic was useless. 50 Magic nets you 17 extra damage with Cone of Cold, but 50 Willpower nets you 250 mana which is enough to toss off at least 5 big spells before taking a round to gulp a potion.

If it's 100 mana vs 350 mana, in the first 6 rounds of a fight the Magic focused would have to drink half the time, while the Will focused could have tossed 6 spells in a row. The 3 rounds of spells certainly should make up for the 60 damage or so you lose from having lower Spellpower.

[Dark83]

We get 115 mana at level 1, and 6 per level. At level 20, it's 235 base. Pumping 60 points into Willpower gives 535 mana vs 235. So 10 spells vs 4 spells, roughly, before being slowed by drinking. So roughly two more spells in the first 10 rounds.

They have a 60 Spellpower difference, which is 20.4 with CoC, 6 with Tempest/Blizzard, 24 with Inferno. 36 with Fireball, 6 with Stinging Swarm and an extra 0.3 modifier with Mana Clash. So long as you have enough spells, the slight loss of damage is easily countered by sheer quantity of spells. If you have sustains up, the spells/drink ratio goes to Willpower more as well. It's also easier to get Spellpower items than Mana/Stamina if you're sticking with robes/staves.

[Smkswazi]

Willpower is useless of mages? hmm i always tough strength was useless for mages. i guess i have to re-think my strategy.

[soteria]

Dark83 wrote...

What really gets me is the contempt for Willpower here when previous threads concluded that Magic was useless. 50 Magic nets you 17 extra damage with Cone of Cold, but 50 Willpower nets you 250 mana which is enough to toss off at least 5 big spells before taking a round to gulp a potion.
If it's 100 mana vs 350 mana, in the first 6 rounds of a fight the Magic focused would have to drink half the time, while the Will focused could have tossed 6 spells in a row. The 3 rounds of spells certainly should make up for the 60 damage or so you lose from having lower Spellpower.

Except, it's never 100 vs 350 since you start with more than 100 mana.

[Dark83]

soteria wrote...
Except, it's never 100 vs 350 since you start with more than 100 mana.

Yes yes, see my followup post with more accurate numbers for everything. I lack the mana restore numbers though.

[Denhvide]

Bad Mass wrote...

I'll do what I want when I want and how I want.

qft

Everything else is useless

[Dark83]

The fact that you don't care which is better doesn't make a discussion on which is more useful frivolous. Well, I suppose playing games is frivolous anyways...

[Skellimancer]

There is no reason to put any points into Willpower unless you are using sustains. Very high magic and the obvious infinite supply of minor mana potions works great.



Try it.

[Axterix]

Dark83 wrote...

What really gets me is the contempt for Willpower here when previous threads concluded that Magic was useless. 50 Magic nets you 17 extra damage with Cone of Cold, but 50 Willpower nets you 250 mana which is enough to toss off at least 5 big spells before taking a round to gulp a potion.

It has a much bigger impact on certain other spells though, like the enchant weapon ones.

Personally, I don't care for willpower as a stat because the return on investment is just too low.  With average spell cost, the amount of points you need to drop into willpower to get 1 extra spell is just too much.  8 points, almost 3 levels worth so you can cast 1 40 mana spell.  If you have sustains, it'll raise that cost, make it require even more points.

[ziphnor]

I dont use potions at all (makes the game quite a bit more challenging). Playing this way Willpower is quite useful for non-blood mages.

[Gliese]

soteria wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

deathwing200 wrote...

The reason Bio couldn't make balance changes to NWN/BG was because they'd get in trouble with WoTC for changing DnD rules. Nothing is preventing them from changing the rules they created themselves.

Yeah but what do they gain out of it? Is critical strike being crap really a big issue? Its not like the game is unplayable as a 2h warrior its just better as  a Mage. How much better is completely subjective. So why go through all that work, time and QQ when the playerbase as already fixed it themselves?

Sure technical bugs and such I expect Bioware to fix plus new DLC. But things like typos, minor balance tweaks can be handled by the playerbase.

It should be fixed because, as I think we all agree in principle, a balanced game > an unbalanced game.  Bioware has a commitment to making quality games, and in this case they have the ability and the authority to make it balanced.  Making Dragon Age the best game it can be is important for Bioware's reputation as a game producer.  Honestly, the level of attention they give to this sort of issue is going to affect my decisions for purchasing future Bioware games, such as SW:TOR.  After all, if I find they can't balance this game or just don't seem to care about it, what does that mean for an MMO?  Or, farther in the future, what does it mean for future titles?  Can I expect future games to be unbalanced as well?

Prior to release, they talked about how difficult the game was on hard/nightmare.  Having played, I can see why they thought so, but ultimately disagree, because certain aspects were left unbalanced.  Easy games don't get the same respect a challenging game gets, and a certain type of player looks for that challenge in games they buy.

My thoughts exactly. ^