230 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Here's another thing to think about. Machine logic is in black and white. Organic logic is in gray. You make peace, but what happens when the first disagreement happens after the upgrade over a gray area and the machines realize they have the upper hand?

[KingZayd]

G Kevin wrote...

strive wrote...

Quarians. Geth were losing until they got upgraded. Might as well not risk the Geth getting the "Reapers are cool" ideas again.

Maybe the Geth would have been the new "collectors."

KingZayd wrote...

From what i see, the Geth were doing just fine on their own until the reapers came. but then, it's not as if the reapers haven't corrupted any other race we've seen (except the quarians oddly enough.. but they already suck). The Quarians were doing quite well actually, and then they decided to start a stupid war WHEN THE REAPERS ARE COMING! the way i see it, the Quarians need the Geth to keep them in check.

Didn't everyone in the galaxy pretty much ignore the reapers until they attacked their homeworlds? From what I can remember, the Quarians started fighting before the reapers attacked anyone.

The others made some token preparations really. Garrus was able to help prepare Palaven's defences a little for example. The Alliance certainly did a fair bit of preparation. but the quarians started a pointless war, which they were losing deservedly until I arrived. I brought it up  because the Quarians fail in virtually every aspect. Pretty much the only good thing about the Quarians is Tali.

Modifié par KingZayd, 15 avril 2012 - 09:52 .

[jbadm04]

Quarian

They created machinery to help them out, thats quite understandable, Quarian did NOT want to create an AI. Then at some point this machines aquired some "awareness" and the Quarians paniced, trying to pull the cord. That is also very understandable.

The problem I see here with the people who are symphatising with the Geth (my opinion) is, the Geth are portraied as "innocents" and with Legion the Geth are given an individual voice, while on the other side the Quarian are portraied as complete morons (especialy the admirals).
Though we as "video gamers" are more open minded then the average conservative person (ie grandparents), I dont think most of us would find it "amusing" and "cool" when our PC stoped starting our prefered video game and started asking questions... even more if our computers would not be "stationary" ...

Whatever, just my opinion. I will always prefer peace between the two, but if I would be forced to pick a side, it will always be the Quarians.

[Rip504]

DerberAuner wrote...



on the whole twice thing:


the whole heretics thing is something i dont think you can take as evidence, they were a minority of geth (stated so by shepard after the mission on rannoch if you do the stupid interview with allers and made peace (maybe in other cases too, but i never didnt make peace)).
like a minority of humans who work for cerberus, cant exactly name this as evidence on an entire species.


"survival" and the siding with reapers in me3 :


ok, heres the deal a lot of people seem to be forgetting:

the geth didnt side with the reapers because they wanted to  destroy organics (not counting the hertics for now)
they sided with them to save themselves. the quarians would have killed them all (as evidenced by one of the outcomes of the rannoch mission). self preservation is a natural instinct even organics share. they didnt want to be hunted to extinction, who would? i am not saying the action is defensible, i am saying it is understandable. also, the geth abandon the reapers if you side with them.
all they wanted was to live. the quarians forced them to choose between a deal with the devil and extinction. and im betting, that humans, asari, turians, rachni and whoever else you can think of would choose the deal with the devil anytime.


to your ending comment: i chose destruction as well, can live to some degree with the geth being obliterated and edi being killed. what i dont like about this is the idea that the machine uprising is displayed as inevitable and cannot be challenged, but i guess ill make due with what theyll deliver in the summer.

 I only compare the Heretics and your true Geth as they both decide to accept the Reaper's terms and upgrades to advance and survive. The Reaper's goals are now the Geth's goals. What are the Geth are going to do? Back out after they are indoctrinated? Most likely not. They are indoctrinated and are going to help the Reapers kill all civilized organic life to survive. I am not saying because of the Heretics all Geth are this way,no I am saying Legion makes the exact same choice the Heretics did. Also mentioned by Shepard in ME3. Shepard questions Legions loyalty mission from ME2,because Legions choice is the exact same one the Heretic made.

I agree. When faced with extinction a race will become desperate. But Humanity and Shepard never gave in,until Bioware railroaded us at the end. We found a way to fight the Reapers,without becoming the Reapers.

The Geth couldn't fight the Quarians without becoming the Reapers? TIM is the human version of the Geth IMO.(A Joke)

I am just talking,I am not trying to change your opinion and I also understand it. I am not trying to fight with you or say I am right and you are wrong. I am just trying to explain my reasoning for siding with the Quarians over the Geth. Although I do feel as Peace is the best option for all,Just is not the topic of this particular discussion. Thanks for the civil conversation. I do enjoy it.

Modifié par Rip504, 15 avril 2012 - 10:03 .

[TudorWolf]

I tend to side with the Geth.

Every time there's a conflict, it's because the Quarians keep pushing the issue. This isn't because I'm sympathetic to Legion. Frankly, the way I see it, anyone taking that line comes across as being sympathetic to Tali instead.

What do expect the Geth to do anyway, just sit there and let the Quarians kill them with their new weapon? The Quarians rolled in and attacked the Geth's dyson thingy, and actually killed enough of them that their species-intelligence dropped. And then the Reapers extended an offer that would save them. THE REAPERS WENT TO THEM. Not the other way around. The Geth were backed against a wall, and the Reapers gave them a way to survive. It sucks, but I'm not gonna condemn them for the terrible crime of self preservation

[DerberAuner]

Rip504 wrote...

I only compare the Heretics and your true Geth as they both decide to accept the Reaper's terms and upgrades to advance and survive. The Reaper's goals are now the Geth's goals. What are the Geth are going to do? Back out after they are indoctrinated? Most likely not. They are indoctrinated and are going to help the Reapers kill all civilized organic life to survive. I am not saying because of the Heretics all Geth are this way,no I am saying Legion makes the exact same choice the Heretics did. Also mentioned by Shepard in ME3. Shepard questions Legions loyalty mission from ME2,because Legions choice is the exact same one the Heretic made.

I agree. When faced with extinction a race will become desperate. But Humanity and Shepard never gave in,until Bioware railroaded us at the end. We found a way to fight the Reapers,without becoming the Reapers.

The Geth couldn't fight the Quarians without becoming the Reapers? TIM is the human version of the Geth IMO.(A Joke)

I am just talking,I am not trying to change your opinion and I also understand it. I am not trying to fight with you or say I am right and you are wrong. I am just trying to explain my reasoning for siding with the Quarians over the Geth. Although I do feel as Peace is the best option for all,Just is not the topic of this particular discussion. Thanks for the civil conversation. I do enjoy it.

1) i dont think legion made that choice
2) like i said, the geth didnt accept the reapers goals, they basically said "please help us, we dont want to die" and gave up free will in exchange
3) im not sure which conversation youre referring to with
"I am not saying because of the Heretics all Geth are this way,no I am
saying Legion makes the exact same choice the Heretics did. Also
mentioned by Shepard in ME3."
the closest thing i remember is when shep and legion talk on the shuttle and shep says "how did we get here? the geth are better than this!" and legion aswers "no, based on empirical evidence, we are not"
4) they didnt make the exact same choice. their choice was based on different parameters. the heretics were basically bribed into reaper service, whereas the true geth were basically forced at gunpoint. there is a difference.
(similar to the whole sidonis thing in me2, i actually sympathized with that guy when he said that they got to him, difficult situation)
5)i think the reaper/geth comparison isnt good in this discussion. reapers never offer surrender, or any other means of your species surviving. the geth actually can be reasoned with.
6)cerberus is the human version of the geth heretics if you ask me
7) im not just talking. im trying to find out if i misjudged the geth. so far nothing you said convinced me im wrong. i want to know if i made the right call, or if i missed something crucial. i would welcome it if you can bring me good evidence to support your claims, but so far all i hear is "reapers are bad, you dont side with reapers" as your decision making point. whereas mine is "geth just want to live, you cant blame them for taking extreme measures in the process"
good talk though

EDIT:

one little thing i almost forgot: i agree peace is the best option, i just think the quarians need to do some serious soul searching afterwards.

Modifié par DerberAuner, 15 avril 2012 - 10:45 .

[Serp86]

TudorWolf wrote...

I tend to side with the Geth.

Every time there's a conflict, it's because the Quarians keep pushing the issue. This isn't because I'm sympathetic to Legion. Frankly, the way I see it, anyone taking that line comes across as being sympathetic to Tali instead.

What do expect the Geth to do anyway, just sit there and let the Quarians kill them with their new weapon? The Quarians rolled in and attacked the Geth's dyson thingy, and actually killed enough of them that their species-intelligence dropped. And then the Reapers extended an offer that would save them. THE REAPERS WENT TO THEM. Not the other way around. The Geth were backed against a wall, and the Reapers gave them a way to survive. It sucks, but I'm not gonna condemn them for the terrible crime of self preservation

How about they try someone else before going to the Reapers ? Nobody trusts them ?

I wonder why that is maybe it has something to with a) killing just about everything that entered the Geth space before ME1 A big chunk of them joined Saren and the Reapers in ME1 to kill just about everyone else

There's one person maybe race thats shows / can show some trust ( Shepard ) in them and they don't even trust him/her enough to at  least try to communicate.

I trust the Geth as much i trust the Batarians because apparently thats the most trust they deserve.  Don't go behind my back like that ...

[Hobbes]

Geth for me, Quarians are the ones who started the war and refused to halt the attack when asked.

[merylisk]

The Quarians are definitely in the wrong, morally, but I'm not sure I could turn my back on Tali like that.

[Sailfindragon]

Geth for me.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So people choose the Geth and think it's okay to commit genocide on the Quarians because the admirals started the war, whereas the civilian fleet wants nothing to do with it, but one committed they have to fight. You think it's okay to condemn the entire race because Gerrell fired upon the dreadnought while you were on board.

You're a monster.

See. We can all play this game.

[krukow]

Quarians. It's not fair, i know, but Tali's been there with me since the begining. I tend to not care about the races so much as the characters that are important to me, and she's near the top.

So yeah, tali gets her home back. Don't care how many flashlight heads I have to kill.

[Shelondias]

With everything Legion said about the Dyson Sphere they were creating and then seeing it blasted all to hell when I got to Rannoch I pretty much made up my mind- I'd push for peace between them both but if it came down to it, I was walking out with the robots.

[Rip504]

DerberAuner wrote...


1) i dont think legion made that choice
2) like i said, the geth didnt accept the reapers goals, they basically said "please help us, we dont want to die" and gave up free will in exchange
3) im not sure which conversation youre referring to with
"I am not saying because of the Heretics all Geth are this way,no I am
saying Legion makes the exact same choice the Heretics did. Also
mentioned by Shepard in ME3."
the closest thing i remember is when shep and legion talk on the shuttle and shep says "how did we get here? the geth are better than this!" and legion aswers "no, based on empirical evidence, we are not"
4) they didnt make the exact same choice. their choice was based on different parameters. the heretics were basically bribed into reaper service, whereas the true geth were basically forced at gunpoint. there is a difference.
(similar to the whole sidonis thing in me2, i actually sympathized with that guy when he said that they got to him, difficult situation)
5)i think the reaper/geth comparison isnt good in this discussion. reapers never offer surrender, or any other means of your species surviving. the geth actually can be reasoned with.
6)cerberus is the human version of the geth heretics if you ask me
7) im not just talking. im trying to find out if i misjudged the geth. so far nothing you said convinced me im wrong. i want to know if i made the right call, or if i missed something crucial. i would welcome it if you can bring me good evidence to support your claims, but so far all i hear is "reapers are bad, you dont side with reapers" as your decision making point. whereas mine is "geth just want to live, you cant blame them for taking extreme measures in the process"
good talk though

1&2.) Legion seen the Heretic choice and made a very similar if not exact choice. Legion knew the consequences,and accepted them.

3.)It may be in that very conversation. I am sorry that I do not remember exactly. Legion deff states that the decision to destroy the Heretics in ME2 made the decision harder. As Legion knew the risk It was taking. Accepting Reaper aid,is going to turn out very similar to the Heretics. How or why would it be any different?

4.)Both the Heretic and True Geth decide to join the Reapers of their own free will to survive and advance as a race. Very similar IMO. Also Legion fully knows and understand what happened to the Heretics. And still joined.
Legion knew siding with the Reapers would end with the Geth fighting for and with the Reapers as  disposable tools. As Legion understands the fate of the Heretics,Collectors and any other indoctrinated individual or race who decided to help,join,or were simply indoctrinated by or for the Reapers.

5.)The topic of this discussion is either or. No peace.Reaper/Geth comparison fits fine IMO. They have both killed billions and occupied homeworlds. I never said they were exact,just similar in what we see. Yes Peace can be made,and is the best option,again not the topic here. IMO the Geth's violent activities outweight & outnumber the(if any) the peaceful actions of the Geth. I am not saying you should disclaim peaceful Geth intentions. No I am just saying their is a lot of evidence that suggest the Geth can be very hostile,and faced with extinction they are willing to help kill all Organic life. As Legion and the Geth fully understand what happen to the Heretics,then chose the same path.

6.)I see no real distinction between Heretics and True Geth. Only timing. The True Geth were on the right path IMO,until the War. The war that yes the Quarians started. The Quarians did help force their hand,but at the end of the day it was still the Geth's choice.

7.)Isn't your choice Peace? If so I would agree it is the right choice. Either killing the Geth or Quarians is deff completely up to one's own interpretation of the situation. Right & Wrong become somewhat grey in this case.
I am not saying that the Geth are violent,just show they can be very violent and willing to destroy all organic life. Something the Quarians have not. The Quarians have only ever wronged the Geth. No other race,as where the Geth have,Heretics have,and now they are willing to work with the Reapers. The Quarians have never done any of this. Just fought with the Geth. The Geth have killed billions. The Geth have shown they are willing to work with the Reapers to survive. The Geth joining the Reapers is the concrete in the Starchild's reasoning. The Geth joining the Reapers help drive home the Starchild's logic,that is the reason I keep saying siding with the race who have decided to wipe out all civilized organic life is unjustifiable. Not only is it wrong,but it helps support this crap ending we got.

So yes,my logic is based on 300 years of evidence of violence. They killed billions of organics before Heretics or the Reapers were ever involved. I would say it is safe to say that some of these ships venturing into the veil were also before the Reapers and Heretics. 200 years ago etc. And yes the Reapers are evil,but not your average evil. They are wiping out all civilized life. Helping them is wrong period IMO. Fighting for survival so you can help destroy everyone else(Geth know what happen to the Heretics and knew they would follow a similar path)and be destroyed last or hopefully turned into the new Collectors is unjustifiable. The Geth evil deeds outweight the Quarians evil deeds IMO. They have shown they can be truly violent,kill billions,and are willing to sacrifice everything in the galaxy for their own survival.

Yes the Quarians have wronged the Geth. The Geth have wronged all organic life.

Edit" Also The Reapers and all of their allies have been enemies in all 3 games. The Reapers are evil and we have been trying to beat them and any who help them. Joining with the reapers make you an enemy. This is Bioware's logic BTW.

Modifié par Rip504, 15 avril 2012 - 11:11 .

[G Kevin]

jbadm04 wrote...

Quarian

They created machinery to help them out, thats quite understandable, Quarian did NOT want to create an AI. Then at some point this machines aquired some "awareness" and the Quarians paniced, trying to pull the cord. That is also very understandable.

The problem I see here with the people who are symphatising with the Geth (my opinion) is, the Geth are portraied as "innocents" and with Legion the Geth are given an individual voice, while on the other side the Quarian are portraied as complete morons (especialy the admirals).
Though we as "video gamers" are more open minded then the average conservative person (ie grandparents), I dont think most of us would find it "amusing" and "cool" when our PC stoped starting our prefered video game and started asking questions... even more if our computers would not be "stationary" ...

Whatever, just my opinion. I will always prefer peace between the two, but if I would be forced to pick a side, it will always be the Quarians.

Talk about saying exactly what I was thinking.

[Tootles FTW]

The Geth.

The Quarians bothered me in Mass Effect 2, and it only got worse in 3. Not every Quarian is responsible for the actions of the whole, but none but Quib Quib was shown to stand up against what the Quarians did to the Geth. And the Rannoch mission...UGH. They are really self-defeating idiots & their helmets could double as blinders. Even Tali is a flip-flopping hypocrite. She didn't deserve the right to pronounce whether Legion had a soul, as she was basically fighting against that notion for the majority of the game.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Okay, let's postulate something else...

Remember the Rachni? Remember that sour yellow note 2000 yrs earlier?

Now what if the Geth really aren't as smart as they've been? What if that was Sovereign's doing by uploading some code into them to "stir up some more trouble" 300 yrs ago? What if that is the only reason the Geth got smart enough to ask those questions? Then eventually they built enough of themselves when they started the Dyson sphere thing to be sort of sentient, but after destruction of enough, lost it and then of course the rest is history -- they sided with the reapers, again.

Nobody ever questioned what made Legion so different from other Geth. It admitted it but downplayed it in ME2, it went over everyone's head. "There are run times of the old machine virus in this platform." Then in ME3 Legion admits to having "Old Machine code" in its platform and acts like it's been concealing that from you. Then it finally admits it's been deceiving you and is no better than organics. Hence, these machines like Legion can lie, cheat, and steal.

Remember what Javik tells you about synthetics -- the Protheans did fight a war against them and had to exterminate all of them. Remember what Tali tells you about the Geth. Remember what Xen tells you. Remember what Raan tells you. Forget Koris, he's a whining Geth apologist, but unfortunately necessary, and Gerrel's just an aging warhorse. And yes, he does deserve a knee to the groin, but that's all.

Now after you kill the Reaper, notice how dumb the Geth suddenly become. It's not like they suddenly want peace. It's like they lack sentience, except for Legion who has the reaper code running. They're back to being just machines. So now without any reaper coding operable in the Geth they do not have the capacity to reason (definition of sentience), is it genocide to destroy them?

Note one other thing:

* when you try to stop Legion from uploading the reaper code it tries to kill you.

* when you allow Legion to upload the reaper code, Tali commits suicide.

[lalaquen]

The Geth. I've never had to choose (always had enough for peace), but I would choose the Geth every time if it came down to it. Even as the allies of Saren, I've felt since the very first gama that the Geth had been wronged and were just reacting to that wrong - the way any other species would. And what we're told in ME2 and ME3 prett much bear that out. In every conflict between the Geth and the Quarians, the Quarians have been the agressors. I don't care if they meant to create sentient beings or not; they did it, and then they tried to eradicate them because their existence didn't suit them. The Geth, in response, let the Quarians live. They obviously didn't try to eradicate them all, or they would have chased them farther beyond the Perseus Veil and there would be no more Quarians.

Furthermore, the Quarians decided to put their own selfish, petty desires before the good of the galaxy by starting a war when the Reapers were coming. And Tali supported it, at least in so far as she didn't fight very hard against it because it might divide the fleet. Well, hell darlin' - divide the fleet, then. Going to war was wrong, and you should've fought harder to try and stop it. Maybe if she'd stood with Korrus, they could've avoided the whole mess - or at least kept the live ships out of it. Maybe not. But she didn't even try. The Quarians hadn't had a homeworld in hundreds of years. Waiting for the Reaper threat to pass (or at least trying to sue for peace first) before they got there wouldn't have hurt anyone. But the Quarians have never even considered peace - never attempted it. I chalk part of this up to the fact that all currently living Quarians are biologically and culturally descended from the ones who were in favour of the war to begin with. But that doesn't make them or this legacy of hate any more acceptable. Racism was a cultural norm in the US South for a long time (and still is, to some extent). But any rational, decent person accepts that it was/is wrong, and that cultural inheritance doesn't justify bigotry. The Quarians are no better than any other kind of racist; in fact they're worse, because they tried for genocide rather than "simple" opression after complete subjugation backfired on them. Then, as if all that wasn't enough, on top of that you have the whole incident with the dreadnaught and Xen's general lunacy. To hell with the Quarians.

Yes, the Geth chose to receive Reaper upgrades in an attempt at survival. It was a bad choice, but also the only one available to them. They didn't necessarily want to work with the Reapers or to destroy all organic life - they felt they had no choice, as evidenced by all their previous interactions with organic species. Sure, Legion at least should've felt he could go to Shepard for help - but what could Shepard actually have done? One ship isn't a fleet, and that's assuming that Shepard could even be reached when the war started (the timeline of the game is nebulous at best - when did the Quarian/Geth war start? Was Shep still in lockdown? etc). It's possible she/he could've brokered peace - but she/he was barely able to do that even when the cost of the war was obvious; her/his chances probably would've been even lower before they were face to face with the very obvious threat of the utter anihilation of their species. And, really, I think that if you accept the Quarians justification for the Morning War, then you have to accept the Geth turning to the Reapers for aid - their lives were at risk. I personally see a difference in the sense that until the Quarians tried to shut the Geth down, they were in no danger; but even if you dn't accept that, you have to see that the choice was essentially the same - kill or be killed.

The Geth made a stupid choice, but for an undertsandbale reason, and they retreated from it at the first real hope of an alternative. If you can't broker peace, then the Quarians won't even back down from a poor decision to save their own liveships - their innocents - much less anyone else caught in the crossfire. So to hell with them. Tali can jump off all the cliffs she likes.

[GongStar]

Quarians, the Geth are machines.
If you create an intelligent program that you can turn on and off on your PC, would you be killing it if you turned it off?
Bro, they're metal and electricity.

[Stygian1]

Quarian, because my Shepard is a Talimancer to the bone.

Legion can go jump off his own cliff...

[HellbirdIV]

The quarians have, at most, 18 million people.

The geth have several billion, possibly trillions if you count all the programs stored in servers.

The moral choice is to support the geth, as it saves more lives. The emotional choice is to save the quarians, as they are organics that you have a personal connection to (Tali, Kal, Veetor, Auntie Raan).

My Shepard learned through Legion's sacrifice (who died in ME2) and EDI's development that synthetic life is just as valuable and has just as much right to live as organic life.

Combine this with the fact that the quarians started both wars with the geth and have no problems killing their own people or their allies to achieve victory, it really wasn't a choice. I gave the quarians all the warning they needed to stand down, and Tali even made it an order. They chose not to listen, and the stronger side prevailed just as it would have if I had not intervened to begin with.

I'm sorry, Tali. I'm so sorry.

[Razzandi]

As a quarter Roma, the Quarian's.

[Thetri]

Quarians. Wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing I was partially responsible for a entire organic race being wiped out. Quarians may have started the war, but that does not mean all Quarains deserve to die. All the innocent children and civilians don't deserve death because of the actions of a few idiots.

[kathic]

I would choose the Quarians. They have flaws but so do the frakking Toasters.