230 réponses à ce sujet

[Redban103]

I picked the Geth originally sicne I figured hey, Tali's just gonna be sad and I'll talk her out of it but then...... yeeaaaaa next things happened. I was still surprised Tali or even Raan (if she took tali's place) didn't try to protest it further, or try harder to recall the fleet. She just sat there and watched it happen rather than act like she truly cared about the outcome of her race. I guess she felt they might have a chance of winning or just stunned by the decision but at least if she could call off the patrol or civilian fleet I'd let the heavy fleet burn without hesitation. So what if I lose the strongest of the fleets, I get the entire Geth in return without watching a race with such potential go extinct. 

Modifié par Redban103, 16 avril 2012 - 01:32 .

[Bigdoser]

CuseGirl wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...

I think I'd have to go with the Geth. Ultimately, Commander Shepard has to make a decision that will give the best possible chance of defeating the Reapers. Not only are the Geth substantially stronger than the Quarians, the Quarians abandon the galaxy to the Reapers and go off to war without a second thought. Not only that, but they have no problem with ignoring the orders of one of their own admirals and insist on firing on a defenseless enemy.

The technological superiority of the Geth, as well as the moral inferiority of the Quarians, mean that the decision is fairly clear--even if it is tragic.

I have to agree with this. Quarians started 2 wars with the Geth, one of which was started after they knew the Reapers had arrived. That makes no sense at all. "Let's retake the homeworld" even tho the Reapers are eradicating whole planets. And for the Quarians to fire on a defenseless dradnought with ME on it? I can't ever forget that.

So the Geth willing to help kill all organic life to survive(twice),makes sense to you? Also the Quarians are/were kicking the Geth a**es until the Geth sided with the Reapers. So the Quarians whom created they Geth,are kicking the Geth's a**es,Have great insight into synthetic life,and the largest fleet in the galaxy are some how weaker and of less value then the Geth? I think that is just an opinion based on Bias.

Geth have more upside as a military force, if that's what you mean. But from a social standpoint, the Geth were definitely more willing to compromise when asked upfront. The Quarians, in my opinion, aren't trustworthy. And I know they're aren't trustworthy because they have too many dissenting opinions, they armed liveships, and they were foolishly and childishly trying to retake their homeworld while the galaxy's biggest threat was upon us.

Yup if I had to choose I would pick geth since they have a better military force plus when talking with legion the geth were preparing for the reaper invasion when the quarians attacked. When I found that out lets just say I was not impressed and the fact that the quarians went to war when we have cthulhu machines invading the galaxy. 

[justafan]

HellbirdIV wrote...

The quarians have, at most, 18 million people.

The geth have several billion, possibly trillions if you count all the programs stored in servers.

The moral choice is to support the geth, as it saves more lives. The emotional choice is to save the quarians, as they are organics that you have a personal connection to (Tali, Kal, Veetor, Auntie Raan).

My Shepard learned through Legion's sacrifice (who died in ME2) and EDI's development that synthetic life is just as valuable and has just as much right to live as organic life.

Combine this with the fact that the quarians started both wars with the geth and have no problems killing their own people or their allies to achieve victory, it really wasn't a choice. I gave the quarians all the warning they needed to stand down, and Tali even made it an order. They chose not to listen, and the stronger side prevailed just as it would have if I had not intervened to begin with.

I'm sorry, Tali. I'm so sorry.

You make the mistake of equating a geth to organics.

Individual geth programs remain just VI, as in, not alive.  Only when thousands come together, as in Legions case, do they gain sentience and can be considered an AI.  As such, were you to shut down each program individually, it would be no different than turning off Avina a trillion times.  As such, the ratio of lives is irrelevant because we have no idea how many sentient geth there are.

On your second point, yes the Quarians started both wars, but do you remember when you first met EDI?  No not on the SR2, I'm referring to your encounter on Luna.  You shut her down, killed her because she had become an AI and was refusing to shut down.  Humans are no better, we just won.  Also, the geth have in no way shown the galaxy they can be open to peace, as far as anyone outside the crew of the SR2 knew, all geth were like the heretics.

All that in mind I would still choose peace, but without the option, I would choose Quarians.  They had their reasons for attacking the geth, and while Gerrel deserves a knee to the groin, his actions up to that point are understandable.  The geth on the other hand joined the reapers knowing full well what the Reapers would do, and that to me makes them dangerous and untrustworthy allies,.

[N7Gold]

Noblewolf wrote...

Geth or Quarians?


Me?
Geth as theres only one tail but every geth has the potential to be a legion and i don't think i could bring my self to kill a million legions plus the geth fleet wiped the floor with the quarians one on one

I chose quarians. As much as I like the Geth and Legion, I'd still give them up if peace wasn't an option. I care deeply about the Quarian race, Tali included.

[CuseGirl]

The other thing is, the Geth are the one group that if all the essential needs are met, they will have no issues with you. You can't get that with the Quarians. That's why I chose the Geth, I know solving their problems are more cut and dry.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I guess if you're really into genocide, you could let the geth wipe out the Quarians, the choose the Red ending. lolz.

[tekkaman fear]

geth are cool and the Quarians come off as dick heads...Having said that though I would have picked the Quarians. Simulated sentients is still a simulation. And no Legion you don't have a soul.

[rex285]

Geth, because the Quarians keep f-ing everything up.

[Senario]

Quarians, I couldn't just do that to an entire group of ppl who have been separated from their homeworld for 300 years or so. As well as caring deeply about the quarian ppl lol.

[Su37]

Quarians, easily. They deserve to have their world back, plus, replacing an entire organic race isn't simple. 

Oh, and there's Tali. 

Modifié par SU37, 16 avril 2012 - 04:36 .

[HellbirdIV]

justafan wrote...

You make the mistake of equating a geth to organics.

Individual geth programs remain just VI, as in, not alive.  Only when thousands come together, as in Legions case, do they gain sentience and can be considered an AI.  As such, were you to shut down each program individually, it would be no different than turning off Avina a trillion times.  As such, the ratio of lives is irrelevant because we have no idea how many sentient geth there are.

Actually, once Legion uploads the Reaper code, ALL geth become sapient. I'm not sure if this means that all individual programs become sapient (thus numbering in the trillions) or if it's simply that all platforms become sapient with (in which case it is still a matter of billions of lives).

Basically what the Reaper code does is reduce the number of programs required for sapience (Legion has around 1100) to a level much more manageable for the standard geth platforms (a regular Trooper has around 100 programs running).

Each program is a part of the greater whole, but still have unique perspectives and viewpoints (which is why the geth have the "consensus" form of democracy at all times) even before the upgrade.

Also, interestingly... If you try to stop Legion from uploading the code... He gets angry. As in, he goes from "talking Shepard down" to "YOU F*****G BASTARD, YOU WILL NOT DESTROY MY PEOPLE! I AM GOING TO BLUDGEON YOUR STUPID ASS TO DEATH WITH MY BARE GODDAMN HANDS!".

A synthetic being wouldn't act like that, even if you threatened its entire species... unless that was, in fact, a genuine, spontaneous, emotional response. What makes Legion and the other geth less of anything than organics?

Obviously, it is not wether or not they have a soul, because Legion, beyond any shade of doubt, does.

[Sc2mashimaro]

 I'm going to sound like a space racist, but I picked the Quarians (not enough rep for peace on my play-through), because no matter how convincing an AI is I still think of it as a machine. And I will pick the flesh and blood living over a machine.

[ArchDuck]

Geth.
Self Defense > Fear & Racism

[justafan]

HellbirdIV wrote...


Actually, once Legion uploads the Reaper code, ALL geth become sapient. I'm not sure if this means that all individual programs become sapient (thus numbering in the trillions) or if it's simply that all platforms become sapient with (in which case it is still a matter of billions of lives).

Basically what the Reaper code does is reduce the number of programs required for sapience (Legion has around 1100) to a level much more manageable for the standard geth platforms (a regular Trooper has around 100 programs running).

Each program is a part of the greater whole, but still have unique perspectives and viewpoints (which is why the geth have the "consensus" form of democracy at all times) even before the upgrade.

Also, interestingly... If you try to stop Legion from uploading the code... He gets angry. As in, he goes from "talking Shepard down" to "YOU F*****G BASTARD, YOU WILL NOT DESTROY MY PEOPLE! I AM GOING TO BLUDGEON YOUR STUPID ASS TO DEATH WITH MY BARE GODDAMN HANDS!".

A synthetic being wouldn't act like that, even if you threatened its entire species... unless that was, in fact, a genuine, spontaneous, emotional response. What makes Legion and the other geth less of anything than organics?

Obviously, it is not wether or not they have a soul, because Legion, beyond any shade of doubt, does.

All your points are quite correct, my thinking though was at the moment of the big decision, those upgrades are not installed, so we do not know how many "sentient" geth there are.  Also don't get me wrong, Reaper code or not, Legion has enough programs running to be considered a full AI and as sentient as Shepard or Tali.  The difference is whether or not the programs you allow to be destroyed in orbit are actually alive, and if so, how many of them are there.  The way geth intelligence works is rather unique, so in going back to your original point about killing trillions of geth vs. millions of Quarians, we simply will never know the number of truly intelligent geth so we can't make such a comparison.  For instance, if each ship makes up one mind, there might only be a few thousand sentient geth killed in comparison to several million Quarians.

[tvman099]

The quarians. I aim for peace between them in ME2 and 3, but only for practical reasons. As Tali says in ME1 "we made a mistake in creating the geth, but not in going to war with them".

The geth are interesting but I'm siding with organic life over a race of synthetics that just got imbued with Reaper tech every time.

[dreaming_raithe]

As much as I didn't want to, I would have picked the Geth. They were the ones in the right in the whole situation. The Quarians were idiots.

Thankfully I didn't have to. Watching Tali die would have probably killed me inside.

[FRancium]

If I didn't get the "peace" option, I would have picked the Geth. Think about it, if Shepard was never involved, the Quarians would have been wiped out by reaper-controlled geth anyways. The geth already showed their commitment to peace by letting them blow up the main ship. All the quarians have to do for peace and their homeplanet is stop shooting the Geth who already had their guards down, and they can't?

I'm not even that sorry for Tali. She failed her race (not able to stop the war after seeing all evidence from the past 2 games), not me.

And for those who say "it's only a choice of a few leaders" Isn't that how history always plays out? You get the leader and the consequences you deserve.

[HellbirdIV]

justafan wrote...

The way geth intelligence works is rather unique, so in going back to your original point about killing trillions of geth vs. millions of Quarians, we simply will never know the number of truly intelligent geth so we can't make such a comparison.  For instance, if each ship makes up one mind, there might only be a few thousand sentient geth killed in comparison to several million Quarians.

Legion says that each geth "unit" will achieve true intelligence and free will, which implies that at the absolute least, every geth mobile platform, from Troopers, Rocket Troopers, Pyros, Hunters, Infiltrators, Primes and Juggernauts to Fighters, Dropships, Armatures and Dreadnoughts will all count as sapient life-forms.

With that in mind, I would say they easily outnumber the quarians just by knowing how many geth platforms are aboard their ships (they are piloted by intelligences in the ship's computers, but there are bipedal platforms on the ships as well as you see in the previous games and the Dreadnought mission).

If you choose to side with the geth, you see them walking around on
Rannoch, looking at the sea as the sky burns with quarian wreckage, and
there's a sense of both wonder and sorrow as the geth troopers, now
fully aware, understand both the beauty of the world they have
protected, and the guilt of the horror they've been forced to commit.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 16 avril 2012 - 05:58 .

[FRancium]

Could Legion have been hiding more information?

He seemed to be the first Geth to ask "does this unit have a soul?" and to rebel, he was the only talking geth we've ever seen, he always dodges the question why he fused Shepard's armor yet didn't fix other holes.

Feels like he was more sentient that he let on.

[im commander shep]

This is a very interesting debate, One thing I can't help but notice is that most of the issues that people have with the geth, joining with the reapers, killing billions, genocide, can't be trusted etc. There is a number of organic races that have commited the same crimes. Example Krogan Rebellions, The application of Krogan Genophage by salarians/turians . Krogan siding with Saren and reapers if genophage is cured, (reaper threat not really known at this point)

I know this is off topic, (will start another thread) but for the people that say geth have killed billions and can't be trusted, did they cure the genophage and can the krogan be trusted any more than the geth. Or does it simply come down to the geth being machines and organics come 1st.

[Vormaerin]

My opinion is this:

I'm not the one making that choice.

The choice I am making is:  Do I let the Geth become sentient individuals like Legion or leave them as a collective network intelligence?

The universe is clearly better off if the Geth become individuals and stop being able to be mass reprogrammed.


The fact that Han'Gerrel is a completely incompetent, homicidal **** is a different issue.   The Quarians are only destroyed because they willfully and intentionally ignore Shepard and Tali'Zorah's advice/warning to break off the attack.

That's it.  That's all they had to do.  But no.  Han'Gerrel can't do that.   He had to blow up the dreadnought with allies trapped on board.  He had to keep attacking the Geth instead of retreating.   He was so obsessed with destroying the Geth that he'd rather his people are practically destroyed rather than listen to any contrary advice.

The Quarians die because they chose to launch a suicidal assault.   Not for any other reason.

[justafan]

HellbirdIV wrote...


Legion says that each geth "unit" will achieve true intelligence and free will, which implies that at the absolute least, every geth mobile platform, from Troopers, Rocket Troopers, Pyros, Hunters, Infiltrators, Primes and Juggernauts to Fighters, Dropships, Armatures and Dreadnoughts will all count as sapient life-forms.

With that in mind, I would say they easily outnumber the quarians just by knowing how many geth platforms are aboard their ships (they are piloted by intelligences in the ship's computers, but there are bipedal platforms on the ships as well as you see in the previous games and the Dreadnought mission).

If you choose to side with the geth, you see them walking around on
Rannoch, looking at the sea as the sky burns with quarian wreckage, and
there's a sense of both wonder and sorrow as the geth troopers, now
fully aware, understand both the beauty of the world they have
protected, and the guilt of the horror they've been forced to commit.

"Will" is the key word here.  If you prevent the upgrade from going in the kill geth scenario, the Quarians do not destroy the geth with a sense of wonder and sorrow as you describe.  They could very well be destroying nothing more advanced than that Shepard VI you ran into on the citadel, whereas we KNOW each individual Quarian has undisputable sentience.  

The geth programs you allow to die on the other hand do not have individual sentience, and the extent to the number of truly sentient geth is open to interpretation.

[Filanwizard]

if peace was not an option for me I would have gone quarian. Not just for Tali but as a people they interest me. Now the Admirals need a good punch or ten. But they will lose power in the quarian or peace option, once on a planet the military government no longer has a use.

In the end I will just always make sure I can have peace as my option. because that is optimal not just for the assets numbers but because the truth is both can get along. and some holographic brat cannot convince me otherwise.

[k-stigus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Not knowing it would cause Tali to commit suicide, probably the geth...

Wow, I didn't know that happens.....

would have picked the quarians then

[justafan]

im commander shep wrote...

This is a very interesting debate, One thing I can't help but notice is that most of the issues that people have with the geth, joining with the reapers, killing billions, genocide, can't be trusted etc. There is a number of organic races that have commited the same crimes. Example Krogan Rebellions, The application of Krogan Genophage by salarians/turians . Krogan siding with Saren and reapers if genophage is cured, (reaper threat not really known at this point)

I know this is off topic, (will start another thread) but for the people that say geth have killed billions and can't be trusted, did they cure the genophage and can the krogan be trusted any more than the geth. Or does it simply come down to the geth being machines and organics come 1st.

Ironically enough, I think it comes down to the fact that at least when the Salarians/Turians/Krogan/Quarians committed/attempted genocide, it was only against a singular species and with good reason.  The scale of reaper genocide on the other hand just dwarfs anything organics have attempted, and many people rightfully find it disgusting that the geth would voluntarily aid such monsters under any circumstance.  

Even if it was a matter of survival, the geth would have known siding with the reapers would only make them the last to be killed or the next collectors, both arguably worse fates than being killed by their creators.