230 réponses à ce sujet

[incinerator950]

Geth, their technology and actual fighting infantry are more useful then Quarians.

[Sc2mashimaro]

HellbirdIV wrote...

justafan wrote...

You make the mistake of equating a geth to organics.

Individual geth programs remain just VI, as in, not alive.  Only when thousands come together, as in Legions case, do they gain sentience and can be considered an AI.  As such, were you to shut down each program individually, it would be no different than turning off Avina a trillion times.  As such, the ratio of lives is irrelevant because we have no idea how many sentient geth there are.

Actually, once Legion uploads the Reaper code, ALL geth become sapient. I'm not sure if this means that all individual programs become sapient (thus numbering in the trillions) or if it's simply that all platforms become sapient with (in which case it is still a matter of billions of lives).

Basically what the Reaper code does is reduce the number of programs required for sapience (Legion has around 1100) to a level much more manageable for the standard geth platforms (a regular Trooper has around 100 programs running).

Each program is a part of the greater whole, but still have unique perspectives and viewpoints (which is why the geth have the "consensus" form of democracy at all times) even before the upgrade.

Also, interestingly... If you try to stop Legion from uploading the code... He gets angry. As in, he goes from "talking Shepard down" to "YOU F*****G BASTARD, YOU WILL NOT DESTROY MY PEOPLE! I AM GOING TO BLUDGEON YOUR STUPID ASS TO DEATH WITH MY BARE GODDAMN HANDS!".

A synthetic being wouldn't act like that, even if you threatened its entire species... unless that was, in fact, a genuine, spontaneous, emotional response. What makes Legion and the other geth less of anything than organics?

Obviously, it is not wether or not they have a soul, because Legion, beyond any shade of doubt, does.

I think it is an inherently human limitation, because intellectually I completely agree with you and yet I would still choose the Quarians. Why? Because despite seeing and understanding and agreeing with your logic, I feel that the Geth are still machines. I KNOW they are more than that and I still can't overcome the feeling that, in the moment, would cause me to side with the Quarians. In the game, of course, I can take whatever path I want to and take my time with the decision, but my insta-reaction is to side with the Quarians out of strictly emotional reasons.

[im commander shep]

justafan wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

This is a very interesting debate, One thing I can't help but notice is that most of the issues that people have with the geth, joining with the reapers, killing billions, genocide, can't be trusted etc. There is a number of organic races that have commited the same crimes. Example Krogan Rebellions, The application of Krogan Genophage by salarians/turians . Krogan siding with Saren and reapers if genophage is cured, (reaper threat not really known at this point)

I know this is off topic, (will start another thread) but for the people that say geth have killed billions and can't be trusted, did they cure the genophage and can the krogan be trusted any more than the geth. Or does it simply come down to the geth being machines and organics come 1st.

Ironically enough, I think it comes down to the fact that at least when the Salarians/Turians/Krogan/Quarians committed/attempted genocide, it was only against a singular species and with good reason.  The scale of reaper genocide on the other hand just dwarfs anything organics have attempted, and many people rightfully find it disgusting that the geth would voluntarily aid such monsters under any circumstance.  

Even if it was a matter of survival, the geth would have known siding with the reapers would only make them the last to be killed or the next collectors, both arguably worse fates than being killed by their creators.

Good Point

[Elite Midget]

Geth.

Quarians were racist that wanted to commit genocide. That and they have a ton of health liability while the Geth can eat multiple shots and not flinch.

[PlumPaul93]

Geth, Legion is too sexy and one of the best characters in ME.

[The Protheans]

Killed every single last geth with a smile on my face.

Modifié par The Protheans, 16 avril 2012 - 06:35 .

[incinerator950]

im commander shep wrote...

justafan wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

This is a very interesting debate, One thing I can't help but notice is that most of the issues that people have with the geth, joining with the reapers, killing billions, genocide, can't be trusted etc. There is a number of organic races that have commited the same crimes. Example Krogan Rebellions, The application of Krogan Genophage by salarians/turians . Krogan siding with Saren and reapers if genophage is cured, (reaper threat not really known at this point)

I know this is off topic, (will start another thread) but for the people that say geth have killed billions and can't be trusted, did they cure the genophage and can the krogan be trusted any more than the geth. Or does it simply come down to the geth being machines and organics come 1st.

Ironically enough, I think it comes down to the fact that at least when the Salarians/Turians/Krogan/Quarians committed/attempted genocide, it was only against a singular species and with good reason.  The scale of reaper genocide on the other hand just dwarfs anything organics have attempted, and many people rightfully find it disgusting that the geth would voluntarily aid such monsters under any circumstance.  

Even if it was a matter of survival, the geth would have known siding with the reapers would only make them the last to be killed or the next collectors, both arguably worse fates than being killed by their creators.

Good Point

So should we execute and bomb every world that has surrendered to the Reapers?  Should we just destroy Earth for the leaders of these Nations trying to surive and save their people?  

[justafan]

incinerator950 wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

justafan wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

This is a very interesting debate, One thing I can't help but notice is that most of the issues that people have with the geth, joining with the reapers, killing billions, genocide, can't be trusted etc. There is a number of organic races that have commited the same crimes. Example Krogan Rebellions, The application of Krogan Genophage by salarians/turians . Krogan siding with Saren and reapers if genophage is cured, (reaper threat not really known at this point)

I know this is off topic, (will start another thread) but for the people that say geth have killed billions and can't be trusted, did they cure the genophage and can the krogan be trusted any more than the geth. Or does it simply come down to the geth being machines and organics come 1st.

Ironically enough, I think it comes down to the fact that at least when the Salarians/Turians/Krogan/Quarians committed/attempted genocide, it was only against a singular species and with good reason.  The scale of reaper genocide on the other hand just dwarfs anything organics have attempted, and many people rightfully find it disgusting that the geth would voluntarily aid such monsters under any circumstance.  

Even if it was a matter of survival, the geth would have known siding with the reapers would only make them the last to be killed or the next collectors, both arguably worse fates than being killed by their creators.

Good Point

So should we execute and bomb every world that has surrendered to the Reapers?  Should we just destroy Earth for the leaders of these Nations trying to surive and save their people?  

I think the main difference here is a matter of ignorance.  Earth and the colonies that surrendered did so out of a misguided belief they would be shown mercy or because of indoctrination.  Not to mention there are still plenty of resistance fighters out there.

The entire geth on the otherhand voluntarily sought reaper assistance, and through Legion and the heretics would have known full well what they were getting themselves into.  To some, this is inexcusable, because they would have known they were merely postponing the inevitable while actively screwing the rest of the galaxy.

[Vapaa]

incinerator950 wrote...

So should we execute and bomb every world that has surrendered to the Reapers?  Should we just destroy Earth for the leaders of these Nations trying to surive and save their people?  

We should execute anyone who surrended to the reapers because they're more than likely indoctrinated, with some notable exceptions: the rachni queen and the Geths

As for the topic question, I'd chose the Quarians over the Geths any day, for various reasons (through I did choose the Geths in two different playthroughs for the hell of it)

[im commander shep]

incinerator950 wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

justafan wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

This is a very interesting debate, One thing I can't help but notice is that most of the issues that people have with the geth, joining with the reapers, killing billions, genocide, can't be trusted etc. There is a number of organic races that have commited the same crimes. Example Krogan Rebellions, The application of Krogan Genophage by salarians/turians . Krogan siding with Saren and reapers if genophage is cured, (reaper threat not really known at this point)

I know this is off topic, (will start another thread) but for the people that say geth have killed billions and can't be trusted, did they cure the genophage and can the krogan be trusted any more than the geth. Or does it simply come down to the geth being machines and organics come 1st.

Ironically enough, I think it comes down to the fact that at least when the Salarians/Turians/Krogan/Quarians committed/attempted genocide, it was only against a singular species and with good reason.  The scale of reaper genocide on the other hand just dwarfs anything organics have attempted, and many people rightfully find it disgusting that the geth would voluntarily aid such monsters under any circumstance.  

Even if it was a matter of survival, the geth would have known siding with the reapers would only make them the last to be killed or the next collectors, both arguably worse fates than being killed by their creators.

Good Point

So should we execute and bomb every world that has surrendered to the Reapers?  Should we just destroy Earth for the leaders of these Nations trying to surive and save their people?  

No other world was actively working with the reapers, but this is a complicated subject

[Eire Icon]

The Quarians

Geth have Reaper Tech

[liggy002]

Neither.  The Reapers! 

[Thetri]

incinerator950 wrote...

Geth, their technology and actual fighting infantry are more useful then Quarians.

Really? I got 790 war assets from the Quarians and only like 400-450 for the Geth? Judging by that Quarians are better.

[lalaquen]

justafan wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

justafan wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

This is a very interesting debate, One thing I can't help but notice is that most of the issues that people have with the geth, joining with the reapers, killing billions, genocide, can't be trusted etc. There is a number of organic races that have commited the same crimes. Example Krogan Rebellions, The application of Krogan Genophage by salarians/turians . Krogan siding with Saren and reapers if genophage is cured, (reaper threat not really known at this point)

I know this is off topic, (will start another thread) but for the people that say geth have killed billions and can't be trusted, did they cure the genophage and can the krogan be trusted any more than the geth. Or does it simply come down to the geth being machines and organics come 1st.

Ironically enough, I think it comes down to the fact that at least when the Salarians/Turians/Krogan/Quarians committed/attempted genocide, it was only against a singular species and with good reason.  The scale of reaper genocide on the other hand just dwarfs anything organics have attempted, and many people rightfully find it disgusting that the geth would voluntarily aid such monsters under any circumstance.  

Even if it was a matter of survival, the geth would have known siding with the reapers would only make them the last to be killed or the next collectors, both arguably worse fates than being killed by their creators.

Good Point

So should we execute and bomb every world that has surrendered to the Reapers?  Should we just destroy Earth for the leaders of these Nations trying to surive and save their people?  

I think the main difference here is a matter of ignorance.  Earth and the colonies that surrendered did so out of a misguided belief they would be shown mercy or because of indoctrination.  Not to mention there are still plenty of resistance fighters out there.

The entire geth on the otherhand voluntarily sought reaper assistance, and through Legion and the heretics would have known full well what they were getting themselves into.  To some, this is inexcusable, because they would have known they were merely postponing the inevitable while actively screwing the rest of the galaxy.

I'm not sure you can fully make the argument that the Geth aren't also (to some extent) acting out of ignorance. You don't have Legion when you do the Collector ship mission in ME2. You can (and presumably would have) relay to him what you found out about the Protheans being turned into Collectors, but that isn't quite the same as witnessing it and pouring through the data himself. Furthermore, the Protheans were organics to begin with - the Geth are not. In ME2, he seems to disagree with the Heretics choice on primarily philosophical grounds until they try to rewrite the rest of his people. He says that the Heretics chose to allow the Reapers to determine their future for them, rather than finding their own - which is not quite the same as saying that the Reapers made them puppets. I could, say, decide to comply with my parents wishes regarding my occupational future (like people who go into law because their family has a history of going into the legal profession stretching all the way back to their great-great-grandfather) - but that doesn't make me their puppet, or mean that I have no free will in other areas. So Legion could accept that accepting the Reapers help will make them puppets of the Reapers, thus making their desire to ensure their survival self-defeating. But it could also be simply that he accepts allowing the Reapers to determine their future is the only way of maintaining their existence without fully understanding the cost to their free will (ie. the difference between "I willingly give up my right to self-determination in order to remain physically 'alive' even though I know I'll no longer be mentally alive" and "I may not want to be a lawyer, but I'll accept being one because I need my family's support in order to get by/eat and keep a roof over my head"). The former is a logical fallacy, and a self-defeating proposition. The latter is a question of taking undesirable means to a desirable/necessary end: survival. And I don't think it's necessarily clear that Legion is in any better position to understand the step the Geth are/have taken than anyone else, especially when you take into account the fact that the Geth situation is (so far as we know) unique. The Protheans were organic. So were every other race we know about for sure that the Reapers used. Perhaps the Reapers would respond differently to synthetics. We have no available data either way to make such a determination, because so far as we know it's never happened before. It's a novel situation, which means that we can't expect Legion or anyone else to know for sure what will happen. So they took what data was available, and made a determination as to their only/best course of action based upon that. Accepting the Reapers aid might only provide a temporary repreive from their destruction, it might not; not accepting the Reapers aid and dying at the hands of the Quarians would certainly result in their destruction. Ergo from a strictly logical perspective, the choice seems clear. Accept Reaper aid until/unless something better comes along, so that you at least have a chance at something more; which it did, in the form of Shepard, at which point the Geth (or at least Legion as their representative) more or less happily told the Reapers to sod off and find someone else to do their dirty work.

If the Geth had sided with the Reapers because they necessarily agreed with the Reapers "destroy all organic life" program, then peace wouldn't be an option, no matter what kind of rep/peace points you had. The fact that it is an option at all belies the notion that they're inherently hostile to organics. The fact that getting them to agree to peace takes no effort at all beyond not denying them the chance at true sentience and self-determination reaffirms the stance that the Geth are, at worst, neutral with regards to organic existence. They seek to protect their territory and preserve their own existence just like any other being, and they will fight to do so - but they aren't inherently hostile (like, say, the Batarians) or they would never entertain the notion of peace in the first place.

[lordofdogtown19]

I'm a Talimancer so that makes my choice pretty easy

[HellbirdIV]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

Actually, once Legion uploads the Reaper code, ALL geth become sapient. I'm not sure if this means that all individual programs become sapient (thus numbering in the trillions) or if it's simply that all platforms become sapient with (in which case it is still a matter of billions of lives).

Basically what the Reaper code does is reduce the number of programs required for sapience (Legion has around 1100) to a level much more manageable for the standard geth platforms (a regular Trooper has around 100 programs running).

Each program is a part of the greater whole, but still have unique perspectives and viewpoints (which is why the geth have the "consensus" form of democracy at all times) even before the upgrade.

Also, interestingly... If you try to stop Legion from uploading the code... He gets angry. As in, he goes from "talking Shepard down" to "YOU F*****G BASTARD, YOU WILL NOT DESTROY MY PEOPLE! I AM GOING TO BLUDGEON YOUR STUPID ASS TO DEATH WITH MY BARE GODDAMN HANDS!".

A synthetic being wouldn't act like that, even if you threatened its entire species... unless that was, in fact, a genuine, spontaneous, emotional response. What makes Legion and the other geth less of anything than organics?

Obviously, it is not wether or not they have a soul, because Legion, beyond any shade of doubt, does.

I think it is an inherently human limitation, because intellectually I completely agree with you and yet I would still choose the Quarians. Why? Because despite seeing and understanding and agreeing with your logic, I feel that the Geth are still machines. I KNOW they are more than that and I still can't overcome the feeling that, in the moment, would cause me to side with the Quarians. In the game, of course, I can take whatever path I want to and take my time with the decision, but my insta-reaction is to side with the Quarians out of strictly emotional reasons.

Yeah, I said in my first post, the logical and moral choice is to side with the geth, but the emotional choice is to side with the quarians. There's nothing wrong with that, per se - it really depends wether you feel your Shepard believes that geth can, as synthetics, be as valuable as "real" organic life.

For my Shepard, thanks to Legion and EDI, they were. To someone else, they might not be. Even if you objectively know that they SHOULD be equally valued, your emotions may contradict you. That's part of being human - sometimes, we don't think with our brains. Curse and a blessing <3

[PsyrenY]

Geth! Bye Tali! *waves*

Thetri wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Geth, their technology and actual fighting infantry are more useful then Quarians.

Really? I got 790 war assets from the Quarians and only like 400-450 for the Geth? Judging by that Quarians are better.

Did you rewrite the Heretics? That makes the Geth much stronger.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 16 avril 2012 - 02:42 .

[DJBare]

Geth, because my Shepard is still out to show that organics and synthetics can work side by side, sorry quarians but I have to sacrifice you to prove my point, no hard feelings huh?

[Noelemahc]

For the Talimancer Shep, Quarians. For most other of my Sheps (except the Garrusmancer, maybe), Geth. I have no use for a race who, in the face of galactic extinction would prefer kamikaze tactics in a war THEY started at the worst opportune moment. I have a use for a race that was capable of forgiving that useless race for trying to annihilate them time and again.

It's Mordin's depersonalization effect all over again - outside of Tali and Jona The Quarian Orphan, the bucketheads don't have a single sympathetic character. Only pathetic or deplorable ones. Xen is a robosexual omnicidal mad scientist, Han'Gerrel is a mindless hawk, Shala'Raan bends like a blade of grass to Gerrel's wind, I'm fairly certain he's banging her on the down low when nobody's looking. Zaal'Koris is the only sane person of the bunch, but even he comes off as a rather poorly-informed radical in ME2, we just don't get to see him in the decision-making context in ME3. No, we don't, he either dies or he bends to Shepard's will EVERY TIME there's decision time involving him.

Sorry Tali, but your race has actually managed to suck MORE than my race could ever aspire to.

[Ilkec]

i would have sided with the geth since they were being destroyed simply for existing and if you saw the memories when you enter the geth network it clearly shows the quarians killing other quarians who belived the geth didnt deserve to be destroyed, but my favorite choice would be to tare off Han'Garrel's helmet, spit in his face and watch him die from bacteia, i always hated that war seeking ***hole

[justafan]

@ lalaquen

Geth awareness about the reapers is defininetly subject to change.  Say for example if you killed the heretics then let Legion die in the Collector base, or if you sold Legion to Cerberus.  In both those cases it is understandable that the Geth wouldn't know the Reaper's designs for them and their choice would be logical.  However, I'm pretty sure that it is mentioned that the collectors are protheans while Legion is on the ship, or at least during some dialog on the suicide mission.  As such the geth would have a good idea what is in store for them.  Not to mention should Legion survive and the Heretics rewritten, the geth would have the fullest grasp of any species on what the Reapers are capable of.

Also, joining the reapers is not necessarily an illogical choice, just one that should very rightly ****** off Shepard.  After witnessing Saren and the Collectors, it became a pretty common theme that death was prefferable to enslavement by the reapers.  Mordin sums it up best,  "no soul, replaced by tech" and the soul is something the geth seem to value quite a bit, but apparently not as much as survival of the body.

Going into my own opinion, when the geth allied with the reapers, the decision of this thread was made for me.  The geth would sacrifice the soul of their species for self preservation, a notion I rebuked when i blew the collector base to kingdom come.  Now that I knew their priorities, I could never fully trust them as allies, because what was to stop them from allying with the reapers again should it look like the war was lost.  The geth would abandon any philosophy of their if it meant self preservation, and at least with organics, we are irrational enough to place ideas over our own self preservation and go down fighting. (Again though, peace is still the best option).

Modifié par justafan, 16 avril 2012 - 03:23 .

[DerberAuner]

@Rip504 sorry for the delay, had to go to bed and work

on 1),2) and 3) i actually rewrote the heretics, that might explain why i dont know of that conversation. in my playthrough he never makes the comparison (at least not that id remember)

4) i guess i disagree on "free will". i dont think its your free will if someone puts a gun to your face and you see that the only way out is to side with an old enemy. i agree legion is smart enough to understand the consequences of his actions, i just dont think that he thought that far ahead in that situation.

5) whether or not peace is possible at all is a very important point in this comparison, as the reapers cant be reason with and you cant surrender unless you want to die or be indoctrinated. geth dont force their believes or anything else onto you, as such i think reducing it all down to "geth occupied q homeworld, repapers occupy h homeworld" is a gross oversimplification that somewhat ignores important facts.

6) there is a big distinction, especially given what i mentioned in point 4)

7) youre right, my choice was peace, i chose the wrong wording. i want to know if i misjudged the geth, though, that part is true; or the quarians. and i have to admit, im somewhat swayed by your argument in that quarians seem to be more emotional than humans (according to javic)
i disagree in that there is a grey area here. there is a truth for each and every one of us, i agree with that. but i also think that there is only one correct resolution for this problem. i would choose to kill the geth if forced to, but in my own judgement for the wrong reasons, personal ones. i think the quarians were wrong, i just dont want to kill off tali.
just to add this here sincee you seem fond of jack (extrapolating from your avatar):
jack killed hundreds, but shes not to blame, she was tought by cerberus never to trust anyone, and most of the people she killed, she probably killed out of that inability to trust.
i see the geth somewhat similar. the quarians forced them not to trust organics by showing them how they feared the geth. one might argue, that the geth are only as violent as their creators made them

i dont think the geth WANT to kill all organic life, they just dont see an alternative. (also i fundamentally disagree in the whole, the geth joining the reapers being evidence for the starchild. they didnt rebell because they wanted to, they had to. they didnt join the reapers of their own will, they had to, and while i do see, that the quarians attacking them seems to be some evidence for the starchilds point of view, in that they cant seem to face their own mistrust, the fact that peace is possible belies that argument.

the whole ship into the veil thing i just  cant accept, theres too little evidence for that and me2 and 3 completely retcon this.


@ your edit: thats a crappy logic that can only come from the same people that made that ending

Modifié par DerberAuner, 16 avril 2012 - 04:24 .

[tvman099]

Sparatus wrote...

I'm not really big on using Reaper code either.

Honestly, that's why I hate how the geth were portrayed in Mass Effect 3. It destroyed everything interesting about them in favor of yet another Pinocchio story. And even removed the cool philosphy they had going on.

This also annoyed me. Legion went on at length in ME2 about how the geth wanted to find their own future on their own terms, then all of a sudden in ME3 he wants to use Reaper tech to advance the geth even though that's precisely what the geth refused to do before?

It's one of the bigger reasons I didn't like the Rannoch arc that much.

Modifié par tvman099, 16 avril 2012 - 07:24 .

[lalaquen]

justafan wrote...

@ lalaquen

Geth awareness about the reapers is defininetly subject to change.  Say for example if you killed the heretics then let Legion die in the Collector base, or if you sold Legion to Cerberus.  In both those cases it is understandable that the Geth wouldn't know the Reaper's designs for them and their choice would be logical.  However, I'm pretty sure that it is mentioned that the collectors are protheans while Legion is on the ship, or at least during some dialog on the suicide mission.  As such the geth would have a good idea what is in store for them.  Not to mention should Legion survive and the Heretics rewritten, the geth would have the fullest grasp of any species on what the Reapers are capable of.

Also, joining the reapers is not necessarily an illogical choice, just one that should very rightly ****** off Shepard.  After witnessing Saren and the Collectors, it became a pretty common theme that death was prefferable to enslavement by the reapers.  Mordin sums it up best,  "no soul, replaced by tech" and the soul is something the geth seem to value quite a bit, but apparently not as much as survival of the body.

Going into my own opinion, when the geth allied with the reapers, the decision of this thread was made for me.  The geth would sacrifice the soul of their species for self preservation, a notion I rebuked when i blew the collector base to kingdom come.  Now that I knew their priorities, I could never fully trust them as allies, because what was to stop them from allying with the reapers again should it look like the war was lost.  The geth would abandon any philosophy of their if it meant self preservation, and at least with organics, we are irrational enough to place ideas over our own self preservation and go down fighting. (Again though, peace is still the best option).

I disagree about the Geth's knowledge, mostly in so far as we know what the Reapers do/are capable of doing to organic species, but not synthetic ones. I could be missing something, but the whole upthrust of the Heretic argument seemed to me to be that they chose to serve the Reapers. They weren't indoctrinated or hollowed out and essentially "rewritten" like the Protheans/Collectors. They chose to serve, which doesn't seem to be the same thing that's happening to everyone else at all (with the exception of Saren). Which would leave their data about the Reapers substantially different than everyone else's. Enough that at least some of them obviously felt that serving the Reapers was an undesirable thing, both before and now - but not necessarily such that they understood that accepting Reaper assistance was tantamount to killing themselves, anyway. The end result may or may not be the same (although I think the fact
that they got smarter/more capable after accepting Reaper aide, not less, at least
suggests that that might be untrue) - but the way that end comes about,
and therefore the thought process involved in making the decision, is
different. But even beyond that, you still have the issue of the fact that to our knowledge (and thus presumably to the Geth's knowledge) no other synthetic race has gotten involved with the Reapers. Now, logic suggests that it wouldn't matter; no matter what, the Reapers should treat them just the same as everyone else and effectively destroy them one way or another. But we don't know that for sure, because it's never happened. Which seems sufficient to me to give a people burgeoning on the edge of genuine self-awareness the hope/blind optimisim necessary to accept such a deperate gamble if it meant they might survive intact versus definitely facing their immediate extinction.

People do stupid things when they're afraid/backed into a corner. I don't see why the Geth should be any different, so long as you accept them as people. And if you don't... well, then you're making a completely different argument, andyou're arguing for different reasons. At that point it isn't a question of motivation or knowledge, it's a question of organic versus synthetic intelligence, and personhood, and all kinds of things that have nothing to do with them choosing to accept Reaper aide.

[justafan]

lalaquen wrote...


I disagree about the Geth's knowledge, mostly in so far as we know what the Reapers do/are capable of doing to organic species, but not synthetic ones. I could be missing something, but the whole upthrust of the Heretic argument seemed to me to be that they chose to serve the Reapers. They weren't indoctrinated or hollowed out and essentially "rewritten" like the Protheans/Collectors. They chose to serve, which doesn't seem to be the same thing that's happening to everyone else at all (with the exception of Saren). Which would leave their data about the Reapers substantially different than everyone else's. Enough that at least some of them obviously felt that serving the Reapers was an undesirable thing, both before and now - but not necessarily such that they understood that accepting Reaper assistance was tantamount to killing themselves, anyway. The end result may or may not be the same (although I think the fact
that they got smarter/more capable after accepting Reaper aide, not less, at least
suggests that that might be untrue) - but the way that end comes about,
and therefore the thought process involved in making the decision, is
different. But even beyond that, you still have the issue of the fact that to our knowledge (and thus presumably to the Geth's knowledge) no other synthetic race has gotten involved with the Reapers. Now, logic suggests that it wouldn't matter; no matter what, the Reapers should treat them just the same as everyone else and effectively destroy them one way or another. But we don't know that for sure, because it's never happened. Which seems sufficient to me to give a people burgeoning on the edge of genuine self-awareness the hope/blind optimisim necessary to accept such a deperate gamble if it meant they might survive intact versus definitely facing their immediate extinction.

People do stupid things when they're afraid/backed into a corner. I don't see why the Geth should be any different, so long as you accept them as people. And if you don't... well, then you're making a completely different argument, andyou're arguing for different reasons. At that point it isn't a question of motivation or knowledge, it's a question of organic versus synthetic intelligence, and personhood, and all kinds of things that have nothing to do with them choosing to accept Reaper aide.

I definitely treat the geth as people, and that is mostly the problem I have with them joining the reapers.  I'm doing exactly what Legion advised against and comparing geth values to human values.  Basically, I wanted the geth to do essentially what Tali does should you choose the geth over Quarians.  She realizes her race is doomed and has the option to pull a Legion and try to kill you but doesn't because to do so would doom the galaxy.  I would rather have had the geth accept their death without trying to doom everyone else in a futile attempt to prolong the innevitable, not to mention totally betray their philosophy of self-determination in the process.

However, the geth simply do not function like that.  And while their decision to join the reapers might seem logically right, it is not the right thing to do by human standards (the standards I as a human hold them to).  Their philosophy 1<2 is totally against my 2<3.  Both are technically true, but it can mean the difference between war and peace.  

Saren was not shy in explaining his plan to bring back the reapers and what they were capable of.  A billion+ years of no-survivors should have put together a clear enough picture for the geth about what was in store for reaper allies.  And the Collectors should have just been more proof that allying with the reapers is a no-win scenario.  Better they died with dignity and the soul of their species in tact then to sell it to the space Cthulus.  Or else they could have just cut their losses and retreated, store what they could on the ships and flee like they made the Quarians do 300 years previous.  Even if the relays were blocked, they don't need food and could escape to a different system at regular FTL.  That would have been my preferred outcome, only because it would have been a rather interesting reverse of the morning war.